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Tax Suggestions


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A couple of suggestions related to alliance taxes:

Show default taxes on the join screen so new players understand the tax rate (for possible security reasons alternative is a notification explaining their new tax rate when accepted)

Since new players will be made aware of default taxes when joining, remove the 2 day seniority requirement for taxes to begin

Give a notification when your tax bracket has been changed Currently this appears in the alliance activity but could be quickly hidden from a member and switched back before they notice, allowing abuse.

End color based tax Exemptions, Replace with activity based tax exemptions

Greys dont pay taxes because grey is the inactive color, Bieges were made exempt later due to abuse by alliances taxing biege inactives and moving them back and forth to applicant.

Obviously the reason for tax exemptions is inactivity, so instead of doing it in this roundabout way, make greys and bieges still pay taxes if they are active, and make tax exemption based on last login instead (however long it takes to turn grey now for example) 

 

Separate Taxes for RSS

Two options on how to implement:

Money/Raw resource/MFG/Uranium/food

Or a bracket for each individual resource

 

to make things easier for alliances that dont want these separate and/or have many bracket if the other resource tax rates are left blank it defaults to the raw resource rate, only the money and resource rate have to be filled when making/changing brackets

Edited by Deborah Kobayashi
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8 hours ago, Deborah Kobayashi said:

so new players understand the tax rate (for possible (in)security reasons alternative is a notification explaining tax rate when accepted)

Alot of Alliances regard that as opsec and may not want that exposed to the public.

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19 hours ago, Deborah Kobayashi said:

Give a notification when your tax bracket has been changed Currently this appears in the alliance activity but could be quickly hidden from a member and switched back before they notice, allowing abuse.

This is a nice suggestion and I support it

 

19 hours ago, Deborah Kobayashi said:

if they are active

Nice

 

19 hours ago, Deborah Kobayashi said:

Show default taxes on the join screen so new players understand the tax rate (for possible (in)security reasons alternative is a notification explaining tax rate when accepted)

I don't support this

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Legal Disclaimer:

My opinions do not necessarily reflect of the opinions of my alliance, allies, enemies or neutrals.

 

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On 7/11/2021 at 11:07 AM, Deborah Kobayashi said:

Obviously the reason for tax exemptions is inactivity, so instead of doing it in this roundabout way, make greys and bieges still pay taxes if they are active, and make tax exemption based on last login instead (however long it takes to turn grey now for example) 

I don't agree with this. 
It is also there to not tax war ravaged nations, to "punish" alliances during wars. 
I don't think we should change this.

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On 7/11/2021 at 2:07 AM, Deborah Kobayashi said:

Since new players will be made aware of default taxes when joining, remove the 2 day seniority requirement for taxes to begin

The reason the two day seniority requirement exists isn't to allow new players to learn the tax rate. It's because, iirc, some folks in the past had a bot to push all inactive members down to applicant so they wouldn't loot the bank and return them back up to member for each of the turn changes. So I don't see that going anywhere anytime soon lol.

I do agree with returning taxes to beiged nations. I thought it was a bad idea to make them untaxable back then and still think it is. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Adrienne said:

The reason the two day seniority requirement exists isn't to allow new players to learn the tax rate. It's because, iirc, some folks in the past had a bot to push all inactive members down to applicant so they wouldn't loot the bank and return them back up to member for each of the turn changes. So I don't see that going anywhere anytime soon lol.

I do agree with returning taxes to beiged nations. I thought it was a bad idea to make them untaxable back then and still think it is. 

 

If you move from member to applicants and move them them back they used to keep their seniority, not sure if this is still the case. but I never knew about that and didn't think about that possible exploit. So i guess I understand it better now, though a 1 - 2 turn exemption instead would close that loophole.

1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

An alliance cant tax beiged nations?  I had no idea.  you kids and your taxes.

They used to be able to, but alliances would move beiged apps back to member to tax them 100 100, and some would drop out of their alliance to raid their own apps to beige them for that very purpose, so that was changed.

Funnily enough my alliance doesnt actually have taxes by default, as we run a warehouse economy. Any opt-in taxes go into their deposit account.

I thought about most of these suggestions mainly due to another suggestion I saw from a newer player confused about taxes.

Edited by Deborah Kobayashi
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On 7/12/2021 at 3:08 AM, Suyash Adhikari said:

Alot of Alliances regard that as opsec and may not want that exposed to the public.

Couldn't you could have other brackets than the default? 

1 hour ago, Adrienne said:

some folks in the past had a bot to push all inactive members down to applicant so they wouldn't loot the bank and return them back up to member

Was that back when you could tax grays? Because setting someone to/from applicant doesn't reset your seniority. 

1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

An alliance cant tax beiged nations?  I had no idea.  you kids and your taxes

Crazy. What's next, spies not havng score?

19 hours ago, BelgiumFury said:

It is also there to not tax war ravaged nations, to "punish" alliances during wars. 

Yep. Would allow for good 100/100 tax farms though. 

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1 hour ago, Borg said:

Was that back when you could tax grays? Because setting someone to/from applicant doesn't reset your seniority. 

It was several years ago, I couldn't tell you.

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On 7/11/2021 at 1:08 PM, Suyash Adhikari said:

Alot of Alliances regard that as opsec and may not want that exposed to the public.

No they don't. There is no alliance on earth aside from maybe a few dumbass micros that consider their tax rate opsec. 

 

Their econ plans, sure, but then those wouldn't be given in full detail to the members of most alliances anyway. 

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What, why wouldn't you share your econ plan with your members? Are you one of those sketchy alliances where the leadership steals from their members to enrich themselves?  Transparency is a good thing, unless you got something to hide.

I know I have been in Grumpy for a few years now, so I am out of the loop for how alliances that aren't the best in the game are run, but seriously is this how a bunch of you run your alliances? 

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1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

I know I have been in Grumpy for a few years now, so I am out of the loop for how alliances that aren't the best in the game are run, but seriously is this how a bunch of you run your alliances? 

I talk to people all the time about how much better Grumpy is in terms of transparency and tax rates. Lots of people don't trust their membership either because they think they are spies or incompetent. Either way, its kinda dumb.

Small lives matter.

Do you guys know how to edit the signature field? I can't figure out where it is.

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4 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

What, why wouldn't you share your econ plan with your members? Are you one of those sketchy alliances where the leadership steals from their members to enrich themselves?  Transparency is a good thing, unless you got something to hide.

I know I have been in Grumpy for a few years now, so I am out of the loop for how alliances that aren't the best in the game are run, but seriously is this how a bunch of you run your alliances? 

Weird statist things, Ronny, weird statist things. 

I have a tax rate that's voted and an econ plan discussed with everyone on how to use it and tweaked and modified as needed. 

Though I suppose it's pretty easy when it's only 4, maybe soon 5 people.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

No they don't. There is no alliance on earth aside from maybe a few dumbass micros that consider their tax rate opsec. 

 

Yeah I was a little confused by the strong opposition to that one, since any alliance that isn't closed to applications would likely answer the question of tax rates if asked by a potential applicant, so it wouldn't be that hard to figure out for most. 

Also to any alliance that thinks those things opsec, checking your projected revenue and doing an intel op before and after a turn change would give up the secrets of tax rates.

Edited by Deborah Kobayashi
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18 hours ago, Deborah Kobayashi said:

If you move from member to applicants and move them them back they used to keep their seniority, not sure if this is still the case. but I never knew about that and didn't think about that possible exploit. So i guess I understand it better now, though a 1 - 2 turn exemption instead would close that loophole.

Alex made the change a while back after an alliance leader was moving an absurd number of inactives in and out of the alliance immediately before and after turn changes so that they could take all the benefit of fully taxing them without any of the risk of alliance bank looting ordinarily inevitable from keeping inactives.

 

I think a more elegant solution could be requiring that members manually accept alliance taxes each time either their tax bracket changes or their tax bracket's rates change (and the new rate is not 0/0). Add a tax rate section to the nation edit page indicating the tax rate one's alliance wishes to apply with a checkbox to fill before saving, accepting the new tax rate and commencing tax payments. Send players a notification about alliance tax changes applied to them, reminding them to accept changes via their nation edit page before their nation will resume paying taxes (under the new terms).

Problems addressed:

  1. The original tax abuse Alex addressed where players could move inactives in and out of their alliance for easy, full rate taxes without the risks ordinarily associated with keeping inactives in their ranks.
  2. Alliances can't throw inactive members into full taxes to benefit from their entire nation's income before kicking them out or in order to "protect" their member's income or mitigate loot losses when they are raided, not at least without the member returning to activity and consenting to the new tax terms.
  3. Alliances can't change tax rates without detection. As Deborah points out, it is currently possible for alliances to change taxes immediately before and after turn changes to secretly take more resources from members and then spam alliance actions afterwards to push the tax change events out of the alliance feed (which is the only place in which members are informed directly by the game that tax changes occurred).
  4. There is no 2 day delay to tax contributions from new members, only what the member's activity level determines (which is likely faster than 2 days).
  5. Alliances can't effectively catfish new players because they always need players to accept tax terms; there would be no point wasting the player's or alliance's time giving new players the runaround.

I think this is also more respectful to nation sovereignty, and makes more sense that the nation's treasury wouldn't dispense resources to foreign powers without direction from their supreme ruler.

Edited by Zephyr
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Zephyr said:

 Alex made the change a while back after an alliance leader was moving an absurd number of inactives in and out of the alliance immediately before and after turn changes so that they could take all the benefit of fully taxing them without any of the risk of alliance bank looting ordinarily inevitable from keeping inactives.

 

I think a more elegant solution could be requiring that members manually accept alliance taxes each time either their tax bracket changes or their tax bracket's rates change (and the new rate is not 0/0). Add a tax rate section to the nation edit page indicating the tax rate one's alliance wishes to apply with a checkbox to fill before saving, accepting the new tax rate and commencing tax payments. Send players a notification about alliance tax changes applied to them, reminding them to accept changes via their nation edit page before their nation will resume paying taxes (under the new terms).

Problems addressed:

  1. The original tax abuse Alex addressed where players could move inactives in and out of their alliance for easy, full rate taxes without the risks ordinarily associated with keeping inactives in their ranks.
  2. Alliances can't throw inactive members into full taxes to benefit from their entire nation's income before kicking them out or in order to "protect" their member's income or mitigate loot losses when they are raided, not at least without the member returning to activity and consenting to the new tax terms.
  3. Alliances can't change tax rates without detection. As Deborah points out, it is currently possible for alliances to change taxes immediately before and after turn changes to secretly take more resources from members and then spam alliance actions afterwards to push the tax change events out of the alliance feed (which is the only place in which members are informed directly by the game that tax changes occurred).
  4. There is no 2 day delay to tax contributions from new members, only what the member's activity level determines (which is likely faster than 2 days).
  5. Alliances can't effectively catfish new players because they always need players to accept tax terms; there would be no point wasting the player's or alliance's time giving new players the runaround.

I think this is also more respectful to nation sovereignty, and makes more sense that the nation's treasury wouldn't dispense resources to foreign powers without direction from their supreme ruler.

While im not the biggest fan on making taxes encoded to be opt-in (even though that works perfectly for my alliance where they are already an opt-in system ), I suppose the meta would just become that alliances with mandatory taxes would kick a nation that refuses to opt-in after a few days, so I dont oppose it and I see how it could work.

though it does hurt my usage of taxes as punishment for not following raid requirements(and previously for Raid Policy violations when I had a raid policy) 

So I would say I neither strongly agree with nor strongly oppose it

Edited by Deborah Kobayashi
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On 7/13/2021 at 7:54 PM, Borg said:

Yep. Would allow for good 100/100 tax farms though. 

It was banned exactly for this reason.
Color innactivity used to last two weeks iirc.
But then NPO just summoned a tax farm.

12 hours ago, Zephyr said:

Text

This is a great ideo imho.
I hadn't tought about this solution, but i love it.

Edited by BelgiumFury
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