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Important ODN Announcement


OsRavan
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14 hours ago, OsRavan said:

Orange Defense Network

To all,

I've been getting a lot of questions regarding ODN's war status, so I felt some clarification was needed.

On the 24th of March, the Golden Horde hit ODN.  From our perspective for no reason, from theirs for a variety of reasons.  They claimed we were part of this "IQ" coalition. 

C'est la vie though, that's life.  We were attacked by the Horde.  They called the attack a 'mass raid,' but as far as ODN was concerned, this was and remained a war.  Multiple waves of attacks sending us to beige and then happening again and again are not a 'raid' in our book.  We don't mind dealing with raids, we have lots of respect for raiders.  This was not a raid as far as we were concerned (they are welcome to call it what they want).

They told us the only way the attacks would end, would be if we cancelled our treaties with NPO.  Well no thank you.  The day anyone but ODN dictates who ODN can and cannot call friend will be a cold day in hell.

In all honesty, besides from apparently our friends in NPO we couldn't even tell you who is in IQ.  Certainly we dont consider ourselves in it.  I'm sure they are fine folks, and we've got the utmost respect for NPO, but we had no interest in joining the global war and anyone who talked to us could have figured that out. 

As such, just because the global war has ended, *OUR* war with the Golden Horde has NOT ended.  Just as we never intended to go to war with IQ, nor do we intend to declare peace with the Golden Horde simply because a bunch of random other alliances declared peace.   Especially not considering how this whole thing started.

We are under no delusions.  The Golden Horde is bigger than us.  They are more experienced then us.  They outnumber us. We were attacked when we weren't expecting it and that hit us hard. We have limited resources.  I suspect that for every 1 million of damage we do to the Horde, they will do 10 million to us.  That's fine.  We'll make that trade gladly, week after week.  But we will deal damage. And we will not give in.

They can smash us into a bloody pulp, crack our skulls, break every bone in our body.  Our teeth will still be lodged firmly in their flesh at the end of it.

::Grins:: if nothing else, this will be a nice lesson on ODN's character for the rest of the world.  I'm sure there are plenty out there who are better nation builders.  Better with war mechanics.  More experienced.  But we're an ornery stubborn bunch of asses when you rile us up.  I suspect TGH will get to see that first hand.

 

There's nothing personal with this.  I am looking forward to a long and good war with TGH.  Most of them have been fine opponents so far.  If I need to be reduced to a smoking pile of rubble, I am glad they will be the ones doing it!   But in ODN we have a code of honor we live by.  And the real test of such a code is not in easy times, but when facing overwhelming odds. 

So for everyone asking.... yes ODN considers itself at war with TGH.  No we are not peaceing out because IQ did.  Yes we intend to have a lot of fun with them on the battlefield.  No this war won't be ending anytime soon, no matter how hopeless it is, not until *we* are satisfied that we've gotten what we need.

 

IoM activeates it's treaty in defesnse of TGH from ODN aggression.

 

Arrgh!

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1 minute ago, ShiningLioness said:

What are you doing in NPO, you were a spanish cat in a previous life dude :P Come join us for the ride.

Tempting but I have pegged my colours firmly to Pacifica in this life ;)

Edited by Cataduanes
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9 hours ago, ShiningLioness said:

 

It doesn't help that most of your nations at our level are currently on beige. Give it time.

 

I count 3 people on beige.

Are you mistaken the "Yellow" as beige?

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8 hours ago, ShiningLioness said:

Yeah, we're not denying it. The point Sylvia was making is that we got criticised earlier in this thread for not defending NPO, even though we're only a protectorate, yet her alliance (which is also an NPO protectorate) got criticised for defending NPO because they didn't have an MDP treaty. That's a completely separate issue from TGH's ebilness (or lack thereof.)

And on that point: we're well aware we could receive peace if we chose to seek it. We're not claiming that TGH is evil or withholding peace or anything. We're freely committing to a long war for reasons which have already been explained.

 

Who criticized ODN for not protecting NPO?

I stated that with NPO's other Protectorates jumping in the war, I gave the green light on hitting ODN (Another Protectorate of NPO).  Whether you had intentions to join or not, I wouldn't know.  I'd rather play it safe than sorry in that case.  We already saw, what, 3 or 4 other Protectorates join the war and hit our coalition friendlies at the time?

So it's understandable if you want to play the victim.  I don't care.  What I cared about at the time was preventing another potential free hit on our friendly alliances, and when OsRavan talked to me about it - I gave him a simple out.  His quote of me, claiming that if he broke ties with NPO, is true and I would've held up to it because then I have no other reason to continue the fight against ODN as they would no longer be a Protectorate on the other side therefore removing that potential threat of their involvement.

I also clarified with everybody that if peace was reached with Rose/KT/Friends, then TGH would also peace out everybody (Including ODN) too.  Our purpose and goals was done.

Edited by Buorhann
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10 hours ago, ShiningLioness said:

Yeah, we're not denying it. The point Sylvia was making is that we got criticised earlier in this thread for not defending NPO, even though we're only a protectorate, yet her alliance (which is also an NPO protectorate) got criticised for defending NPO because they didn't have an MDP treaty. That's a completely separate issue from TGH's ebilness (or lack thereof.)

And on that point: we're well aware we could receive peace if we chose to seek it. We're not claiming that TGH is evil or withholding peace or anything. We're freely committing to a long war for reasons which have already been explained.

Yeah, that's what I meant by that you're denying peace; you're making the choice to commit to the war when peace is perfectly possible. As for defending NPO or not, the problem is that TGH and allies had already committed to fighting NPO, which meant that to them, your most important paper now became no obstacle. After all, if they mass raided you, what would NPO do about it, declare double war? If you'd had another protector on top of NPO, then that would undoubtedly have changed their calculus and they would have had to take that into consideration. That they were willing to ignore you if you broke ties to NPO was actually a very kind offer since they could have mass raided you anyway, since they were already at war with your protector.

Still, I can indeed respect your willingness to commit to a suicide war; I'm just not sure it's going to have the results you really want. I've done it myself to relative success through the DoO, but with the fortify nerf being what it is, that option is almost totally gone. Trust me, I'm pretty much an expert at suicide missile war.

2 hours ago, Buorhann said:

Who criticized ODN for not protecting NPO?


Technically I did, but I was being sarcastic ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
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2 hours ago, Buorhann said:

I count 3 people on beige.

Are you mistaken the "Yellow" as beige?

 

There were more at the time of writing.

 

2 hours ago, Buorhann said:

 

Who criticized ODN for not protecting NPO?

I stated that with NPO's other Protectorates jumping in the war, I gave the green light on hitting ODN (Another Protectorate of NPO).  Whether you had intentions to join or not, I wouldn't know.  I'd rather play it safe than sorry in that case.  We already saw, what, 3 or 4 other Protectorates join the war and hit our coalition friendlies at the time?

So it's understandable if you want to play the victim.  I don't care.  What I cared about at the time was preventing another potential free hit on our friendly alliances, and when OsRavan talked to me about it - I gave him a simple out.  His quote of me, claiming that if he broke ties with NPO, is true and I would've held up to it because then I have no other reason to continue the fight against ODN as they would no longer be a Protectorate on the other side therefore removing that potential threat of their involvement.

I also clarified with everybody that if peace was reached with Rose/KT/Friends, then TGH would also peace out everybody (Including ODN) too.  Our purpose and goals was done.

 

As I've said, we're under no illusions that you're not offering us peace. We're not accusing you of being evil tyrants who won't peace us out. We're also not saying it was "wrong" of you to hit a protectorate. What we are saying is that we, personally, are annoyed about being pre-empted when we were peacefully minding our own business. There's a difference between being pissed off and thinking that you're doing something ~morally wrong~ (lol.) So we're not playing the victim here. We really are simply committing ourselves to a suicidal perma war just to get you back.

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Oh ok.  Cool.

I am also not saying ODN are victims.  What I am saying is that attacking a group who were planning to stay out of the war was a bad move.   

Also assuming that you all really did think ODN would get involved and this was not some sort of glorified raid becsuse you felt like it,  once you found out otherwise, you could have. said something along the lines of “okay, guess we misunderstood.  Sorry” and just arranged White Peace.  

Instead ODN got told they needed to drop their treaty with NPO.  That’s a bit harsh for peace, don’t you think?  Switch the situation around - would you take terms forcing you to drop a close ally for peace?

The fact that ODN could have taken peace when NPO got it makes no difference.  In fact, I get why they refused.  You all apparently are under the false impression that Roq decides everything for the rest of us like he is the Bot Master General.   That is uncorrect.  If ODN took  peace at the same time, it would not do anything to show otherwise.  This way reinforces the idea that ODN makes their own decisions.

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23 minutes ago, Smith said:

Am I the only one who finds it funny that so much was written in response to Buor saying "Oh ok. Cool"

You have to read the previous discussion in the thread.  

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35 minutes ago, Sylvia said:

I am also not saying ODN are victims.  What I am saying is that attacking a group who were planning to stay out of the war was a bad move.   

Also assuming that you all really did think ODN would get involved and this was not some sort of glorified raid becsuse you felt like it,  once you found out otherwise, you could have. said something along the lines of “okay, guess we misunderstood.  Sorry” and just arranged White Peace.  

Instead ODN got told they needed to drop their treaty with NPO.  That’s a bit harsh for peace, don’t you think?  Switch the situation around - would you take terms forcing you to drop a close ally for peace?

The fact that ODN could have taken peace when NPO got it makes no difference.  In fact, I get why they refused.  You all apparently are under the false impression that Roq decides everything for the rest of us like he is the Bot Master General.   That is uncorrect.  If ODN took  peace at the same time, it would not do anything to show otherwise.  This way reinforces the idea that ODN makes their own decisions.

To be clear, speaking for myself I didn't see dropping NPO as a harsh term. It's understandable. If they could get us to drop NPO, they removed all reason for continuing to attack us and hence peace was sensible. Otherwise, they'd continue attacking so as to neutralise one of NPO's allies. Harsh terms are to my mind extorting massive reps or imposing viceroys or decommissioning projects or a whole variety of dick moves that nobody in this game has ever bothered to dream up, e.g. refusing to let the enemy alliance receive rebuilding loans from banks afterwards and having someone from the victor's alliance have access to the alliance bank to ensure compliance. PnW has never even SEEN harsh terms because nobody hates each other enough.

Whether we would ever accept such terms is of course a totally different matter from whether the terms were "harsh". It'll be a cold day in hell that any alliance of mine drops allies at the behest of an enemy alliance.

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4 minutes ago, ShiningLioness said:

Harsh terms are to my mind extorting massive reps or imposing viceroys or decommissioning projects or a whole variety of dick moves that nobody in this game has ever bothered to dream up, e.g. refusing to let the enemy alliance receive rebuilding loans from banks afterwards and having someone from the victor's alliance have access to the alliance bank to ensure compliance

Man, those are some good ideas though :P

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
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5 minutes ago, ShiningLioness said:

Don't go getting ideas, now. :P

too late :D

For reals though, I've been playing these things for many years now, and I've actually seen demands even harsher than that. I've seen communities become so toxic that the scale of hateful actions is literally criminal. I'm grateful that P&W hasn't fallen so far yet... but I still fear that it could. Let's hope it doesn't actually come to that.

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
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Just now, Sir Scarfalot said:

too late :D

For reals though, I've been playing these things for many years now, and I've actually seen demands even harsher than that. I've seen communities become so toxic that the scale of hate is literally incredible. I'm grateful that P&W hasn't fallen so far yet... but I still fear that it could. Let's hope it doesn't actually come to that.

 

Well the other thing is that to force someone to accept those terms you've got to have the balls to keep them down for a bloody long time (because nobody is going to meekly suck up those terms unless they've been fighting for a really long time and have no prospect of ending it any other way) and frankly I don't think anyone in PnW *DOES* have what it takes.

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Someone kind of touched on this.  But we made it clear to all sides that we were our own entity in this war and didnt consider ourselves part of the larger war.    As someone (sylvia?) said, Roq is an awesome guy but he doesnt negotiate peace for us.  *ODN* actually never got offered any terms beyond dropping NPO if we want to get technical here, because (by our own choice) we were never represented in any IQ negotiations.  I mean I don't doubt at all that TGH would have been happy to include us in the larger peace terms... but they never offered that to *us*. (And we wouldn't have accepted anyway.  Not implying otherwise.  No worries.  Im just saying that they didn't seem to take us at our word when we said we weren't considering ourselves part of this conflict)

 

On a side note.  Completely unrelated.  I have to admit I greatly enjoyed all you TGH folks chanting Buorhann's name.  Badass way to open a war.  Also... Buorhann... am i remembering correctly is your line about 'meat on the table' from the lord of the rings movies?  Its been bugging me in the back of my head.

 

:

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2 minutes ago, OsRavan said:

Also... Buorhann... am i remembering correctly is your line about 'meat on the table' from the lord of the rings movies?  Its been bugging me in the back of my head.

 

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1 hour ago, Sylvia said:

What I am saying is that attacking a group who were planning to stay out of the war was a bad move.   

You and I will disagree on this then.  ODN had over 30+ members at the time we hit.  They were decently built on military and they were within the range of actually being a threat to some valuable nations on our side.

After seeing Atlas, WildFire, and...  hell, I can't remember the others off the top of my head, jump in - I called the shot to remove any potential threat ODN could've been.  Sure, they could've been completely innocent in this, but at that point and time - I wasn't going to risk it.

If I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I'd have done it much earlier and without hesitation.  I'd still do it, no matter the war.

 

If you're a protectorate of an alliance we're at war with, you're going to get hit.  I don't care who it is.  I've learned over every single war since I've played that Protectorates are good AAs to use to help tip the scales in a war.

This is also why I hate Protectorate treaties.  I feel that they're the most worthless treaties in the game.  If you cannot protect yourself, why make an AA?  When I formed TGH, I was told several times to get a Protector and I said "Hell no", and we didn't.

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