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Ok, real talk. Player/Alliance votes

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Just now, Bot said:

Last year Syndicate was voting for The Chola for best rookie alliance, we were voting for Syndicate/TKR on other options, I don't remember you saying anything. So why now?

Well. The one time I knew someone was literally saying "vote for X", I told them I thought it was pathetic and to knock it off, even though I thought the candidate they were talking about deserved it anyway.

Syndicate membership was informed enough to see those for the suggestions they were, though: suggestions. Chola was an excellent rookie alliance (don't you think? :P). Cerberus appears to be disbanding, and Sval can't make me laugh.

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7 minutes ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

If you view them as political parties, IQ is using a tactic they criticized in the past, which makes them hypocritical.

Oh and what tactic is that? I don't seem to recall. I do recall people pointing out IQ is powerful because of our large member base and our joking about using human wave tactics so obviously if we encourage people to get out to vote and endorse certain candidates they would get more votes. That comes from having more people, which, again, is something pointed out frequently. Or as bot noted Zodiac is accused of accepting everyone to pad their score (which is childish) but if they are that gives them a larger voting base.

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49 minutes ago, Micchan said:

Dear NPO & friends, if you think all your votes are legit why are you so scared of another poll? :D

Because our votes are legit and you shouldn't be allowed to subvert the voting process by moving the goalposts as part of an effort to ensure you win.  Honestly it's kind of pathetic that you're accussing us of rigging the vote when your proposal for a new vote with new rules intentionally targets our members in an attempt to disallow their votes, which (as I pointed out to you in another thread) is the actual definition of vote rigging.  The PW awards aren't the OWF awards and the only criteria to vote is to be a member of PW in good standing.  If you want to hold an OWF award (or an EMC award) and restrict voting to people you agree with, that's your prerogative, but you have no right or authority to discriminate against our members because the people you feel should win aren't winning.  The rules for this competition were clearly laid out and have not be violated - you don't get to change them partway through because you don't like how the vote is going.

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4 minutes ago, Bot said:

The point I'm trying to make is, even if you have played for a very long time, it's not possible for you to know better about other alliances. You will most likely hear things about Zodiac from your alliance mates or friends. Some where someone from TKR mentioned we just accept everyone to inflate our score, if that's the opinion you people have about Zodiac, I don't consider you (or those people) people as educated.

I’ve alliance hopped plenty of times, my friend. I think I’ve cherry-picked the important stuff. 

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3 minutes ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

Well. The one time I knew someone was literally saying "vote for X", I told them I thought it was pathetic and to knock it off, even though I thought the candidate they were talking about deserved it anyway.

Syndicate membership was informed enough to see those for the suggestions they were, though: suggestions. Chola was an excellent rookie alliance (don't you think? :P). Cerberus appears to be disbanding, and Sval can't make me laugh.

I doubt it, I was in touch with your leadership (not you directly). Tell me why you are so against it? Is it because of NPO? :P

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1 minute ago, Rache Olderen said:

Oh and what tactic is that? I don't seem to recall. I do recall people pointing out IQ is powerful because of our large member base and our joking about using human wave tactics so obviously if we encourage people to get out to vote and endorse certain candidates they would get more votes. That comes from having more people, which, again, is something pointed out frequently. Or as bot noted Zodiac is accused of accepting everyone to pad their score (which is childish) but if they are that gives them a larger voting base.

I was referring to you whining about people colluding on who to vote for. Which was done on a smaller scale earlier, and is the basis people in your sphere have laid out for doing it now.

Are you guys actually this obtuse, or are you actually just trying to go for mustache-twirling villains to liven things up? If it were the latter I might actually respect it.

Anyway. I feel my point makes sense so I'm moving on.

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2 minutes ago, BigHiggs said:

I’ve alliance hopped plenty of times, my friend. I think I’ve cherry-picked the important stuff. 

People who alliance hop and don't settle barely get to know anything about the alliance in my experience. What leadership positions you held and in which alliances?

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There's only one way to solve this mess. All nations with 700+ days can decide on a council of 5 players. These 5 players will choose "deserving" candidates which will of course be totally unbiased and fair. Because as humans, we never make biased decisions.

Once the "deserving" candidates are chosen, the community will vote. Every vote will be double checked against the voters forum age and nation age. If they look like trolls or seem like trolls or even smell like trolls, they will be denied their vote.At the end of the day, Democracy wins and so does the "deserving" candidate.

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4 minutes ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

I was referring to you whining about people colluding on who to vote for. Which was done on a smaller scale earlier, and is the basis people in your sphere have laid out for doing it now.

Are you guys actually this obtuse, or are you actually just trying to go for mustache-twirling villains to liven things up? If it were the latter I might actually respect it.

Ah, I don't recall complaints about that in the past. So apologies for not knowing of any that has happened. Back when I was in Syndisphere I kinda ignored everything Paracov said (no offense guys :P

 

As for that I am more going for "Crash an OWF circle jerk before it happens and make everyone salty" but that is my personal motive. That and it gives us something to do.

3 minutes ago, ForgotPants said:

There's only one way to solve this mess. All nations with 700+ days can decide on a council of 5 players. These 5 players will choose "deserving" candidates which will of course be totally unbiased and fair. Because as humans, we never make biased decisions.

I nominate @Bot because, since he is a robot, he will be completely impartial and unbiased.

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I was linked this thread a while back so idk I’ll put in my two cents for the person that linked it:

The question you should be asking yourselves is: what is rigging in context of an online poll for a nation simulator, and what is the reasoning behind a specific vote.

For one, the very concept of “rigging” is not an actual thing in relation with this specific set of polls - how would you rig this? The votes are transparent enough (go ahead and uncheck the secrecy box if management has that checked if you want) and are limited to one per active account as far as I am aware. The fact of the matter is, traditional rigging isn’t a thing here. It’s a non issue. What most people are talking about is “manipulation of votes”, a phrasing I do not agree with on a fundamental basis. 

For two, votes are always based on the voter trying to stick to his preference set - and in the context of this eSim there isn’t really a “I forced these guys to vote” thing going on either - convinced, lobbied, campaigned and endorsed, sure - even if they’re “ordering” players to vote for certain players, I view it as a legitimate strategy. Here the “want” for voting for someone would outweigh the “rational” decision - whatever that is xdxd. IQ convinced their members that them voting for these specific candidates is the better option - get over it, that is literally how campaigning works. The common misconception here and in other threads is that this is somehow illegitimate, and breaks this “sanctity” of this poll system. That isn’t the case at all:

This system was never meant to accurately portray who was who in the community and the game; the person who can convince the maximum amount of people to vote for them wins by default. That is how these votes are decided, have been and most likely will be.

Want to do something? Convince your own member base to vote for your own people/alliances. B_itching does nothing. Popularity contests are won this way, not by complaining about the other side consolidating votes you think should’ve been received by others. 

Edit: no walls of text (albeit one as short as this) on mobile ;-;

Edited by Anathema
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1 minute ago, Rache Olderen said:

I nominate @Bot because, since he is a robot, he will be completely impartial and unbiased.

How can a robot be impartial when NPO is full of his kind?

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11 minutes ago, Bot said:

People who alliance hop and don't settle barely get to know anything about the alliance in my experience. What leadership positions you held and in which alliances?

By alliance hop I mean like staying in an alliance for a month or two, then joining another. 

This has actually been the longest I’ve been in an alliance. I don’t plan to leave.

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4 minutes ago, Micchan said:

How can a robot be impartial when NPO is full of his kind?

Damn figured out our secret plan <_< 

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3 minutes ago, Zeebrus said:

I vote that we have no vote.

We should all pay $12.95 to alex to buy whatever awards we want

[This message has been sponsored by Red Road Entertainment LLC]

I propose to give all the alliance awards to Avansies and all the players awards to Les Paul Supreme

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Just now, Micchan said:

I propose to give all the alliance awards to Avansies and all the players awards to Les Paul Supreme

Why not to Alex? He fixed our broken servers a few days ago. In my eyes, he is Player of the Year for 5 years now.

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36 minutes ago, Zeebrus said:

Okay, this is going to be my last say on the matter, in part because I realized something, but also because my iPad is like 5 minutes from dying and I won’t have access to a charger for like 4 hours

 

So, let me first make two things crystal clear:

I don’t care how my votes are, and I’m NOT against IQ 

 

I simply saw that there’s a mass outcry against how the vote appears to have been tampered with, completely tipped towards those IQ voted for.

 

Seeing this outcry and many, many complaints I wanted to help. To try and offer an idea for how we could fix this an make everyone happy.

 

Now I’m seeing the same thing again, for the other side. 

 

I don’t want to upset people

And seeing how angry people are at me, and how passionate they are about defending the current poll, I’m going to step back. There’s no way here to please everyone, and I’m not one for upsetting people, I really would rather not.

 

So I leave my ideas here, do with them what you want, cause the fact stays the same, I really don’t care how the vote ends, I just wanted to make the community happy

 

GG and sorry for not talking more to IQ on the problem before offering an idea

 

Adios 

II'm glad you withdrew your demand for a new poll before I got around to responding to it, since otherwise I would have had to point out how entitled your apparent belief that you deserve to win is.   Hopefully the rest of the people making arguments based on a similar sense of entitlement find the courage to follow your lead and stop demanding that we alter the rules to favour their candidacies.

31 minutes ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

Can you really not see why people might be upset at the idea of you telling a bunch of people who are new and don't actually take part in the global community to vote for specific things?

I'm not dismissing the points some IQ people are making here, but the way you've chosen to go about making that point, when the option of, say, offering help to the organizers to address some of your concerns, strikes me as really petty. And the tenor of comments people have made since makes me pretty confident it was borne almost entirely out of that pettiness.

You don't like the community, so you're taking a bad thing about it and making it worse. Okay guys.

As I said when you messaged me earlier Manthrax, you're missing the point - our players are part of the community as well and have just as much right to have their opinions heard as you do.  I know your AA doesn't do a lot of recruiting, but BK does and I can tell you that we have comparative noobs that are incredibly well informed and engaged with the politics of PW and vets that have been around for years that don't follow politics at all.  Your argument seems to rest on an elitist assumption that newer players don't have the experience necessary to cast an informed vote, by which you seem to mean a vote you don't agree with.  Our people don't 'ruin' the awards by participating and, in fact, they validated the work done by the organizers by participating in a process that has always been open to everyone.  You seem to be equating the 'community' with the OWF (as does Micchan when she tries to link voting rights to OWF posts), but the community in question is PW and our people log-in to participate in it every day.  Just because they don't post regularly in the OWF or talk to you on Discord doesn't mean they don't matter and trying to cheapen their votes by suggesting that does a disservice to the community we're all a part of.  As I said to Micchan, if the OWF regulars want to hold a poll and recognize people they like that's their call, but these are the PW awards and the rules for participation have always been clear - you don't get to change them now because people you think are 'deserving' aren't winning the awards you think they deserve.

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Just now, Micchan said:

I propose to give all the alliance awards to Avansies and all the players awards to Les Paul Supreme

I second this

I’ll give someone One BILLION monopoly dollars to bring us LPS, alive. So that we can stick him with a bunch of pins

 

”Most Likely to Succeed”

”Best Player”

”Largest Alliance”

”Best Girl”

”Most Powerful Player”

 

Then we all gather together and sing high praises to LPS as we roll him back into the water 

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3 hours ago, Zeebrus said:

There’s going to be a new vote, don’t worry about it. I talked to Bezzers and he said he’s alright with it. I’m also pushing for the voters to be public so if another vote trolling happens, certain votes can be nullified, and the rightful people will get their awards.

 

It should be within the next few days that the new polls are opened

Yeah, no.

The original vote still stands. Nobody has the power to nullify it after it's already started, and it if it is "cancelled" by some baby who only agrees with a democratic process when they and their people win, then we will just honor the results as they were just  before it was "cancelled" and those will become the new results.

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1 minute ago, Curufinwe said:

II'm glad you withdrew your demand for a new poll before I got around to responding to it, since otherwise I would have had to point out how entitled your apparent belief that you deserve to win is.   

But I said 3x (4) that I don’t care who wins or how.

 

I could have 0 votes, or I could’ve had 10,000. Either way I saw people upset, so I wanted to try to find a solution, but I didn’t consult anyone from IQ really, so I didn’t take into account that people on that end would be upset then.

 

Ill say it one last time I don’t care what my votes are like

I just thought maybe my idea would’ve worked, and made the large amounts of upset people maybe feel better about all this.

 

But seeing as to how suggestion of any kind gets you stoned with chunks of salt, I’m just done w/ it all, and not gonna do anything more about it

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5 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

-snip-

Me and Aerys just fire off quips while Curu fires off entire paragraphs explaining things and arguing.

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Just now, Robert P. Holmes III said:

Yeah, no.

The original vote still stands. Nobody has the power to nullify it after it's already started, and it if it is "cancelled" by some baby who only agrees with a democratic process when they and their people win, then we will just honor the results as they were just  before it was "cancelled" and those will become the new results.

You hold no power in this, but as I said I’m done with it

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Just now, Zeebrus said:

You hold no power in this, but as I said I’m done with it

Neither do you, nor does anyone else. The vote has already begun. Only the results from that poll will be honored.

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16 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

I know your AA doesn't do a lot of recruiting, but BK does and I can tell you that we have comparative noobs that are incredibly well informed and engaged with the politics of PW and vets that have been around for years that don't follow politics at all. 

An example being I can say right now that, besides NPO in part, I don't know how any of other alliance's economy runs besides my own, and I have been in CS gov for the past two years. That and I mostly don't pay attention to forum politics.

Though it isn't like these categories are particularly vetted. For example, GoG was nominated for best forums, despite not having forums at all. Though speaking of which we definitely need a best discord category.

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29 minutes ago, Zeebrus said:

, but I didn’t consult anyone from IQ really, so I didn’t take into account that people on that end would be upset then.

Which really is the problem when it comes to forums/awards and the like. The echo chamber within here refuses to consult, include or involve IQ folks when it comes to doing things, and as a result, created an environment that makes us feel better off outside of this place. Saying that, its not particularly your fault, as much as the circle jerk nature of the forums here. 

I'd be terribly disappointed if Bezzers and co. unilaterally change the awards system over night, after the process has begun.

With regards to the topic at hand, for next year ( Awards 2018 ) my only suggestion to makes these awards better would be to split them into statistical/factual awards, like Best Growth and the like which can be measured and given out by the admin staff, while allowing player perception votes to continue in a similar manner. That way there are some irrefutable truths, along with a mix of the current popular culture votes, which balances community participation with a fact-based system :P 

Edited by Shadowthrone
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