Obligatory gun control thread

[Spite]

I don't see why the higher population of the USA has any bearing on it's gun culture relative to Europe. If you compare the USA to another nation on any topic, it is going to be one with a similar level of social, economic and political development.

[Doktor Avalanche]

I don't see why the higher population of the USA has any bearing on it's gun culture relative to Europe. If you compare the USA to another nation on any topic, it is going to be one with a similar level of social, economic and political development.

And if you compare a State on the East Coast vs. a State in the Mid-West you are going to get political, economic and social differences which vary on a broad scale.

 

Have you ever visited the United States? I have visited England. We are quite different in my opinion.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Given that my points are actual facts, they are correct and the opposite of stupid; and my outrage at the low intellectual level demonstrated by pro-gun people only adds to my credibility.

 

That possibility has no actual bite. Guns are weapons with first mover advantage. If I aim at you and have a high probability of shooting you, your holstered gun does jackshit to help you.

 

Think of the last mass-shooting. Were people supposed to be wearing their own Kevlar vests and carrying their own assault weapons to defend themselves? That would be ridiculous. The party with malicious intent almost always has the initiative, and with firearms, initiative matters tremendously.

What facts? All you did was state that guns are designed to kill and then speculated that guns possibly give men bigger balls. What facts did you insert into your speculation? Where can I see your fact sheet? Your assumptions or your speculations? Low intellectual level. lulzy.

Did you notice the chart I posted in this topic yesterday? It includes Australia, Canada, Japan, and New Zealand.

Link: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9994-obligatory-gun-control-thread/page-3#entry179557

Yes. My bad. Still, my point is made.

[Kemal Ergenekon]

What facts? All you did was state that guns are designed to kill and then speculated that guns possibly give men bigger balls. What facts did you insert into your speculation? Where can I see your fact sheet? Your assumptions or your speculations? Low intellectual level. lulzy.

 

The fact that guns are more efficient tools of violence compared to other means, such as knives, unarmed assault, etc. These aren't assumptions. You can check the validity of my hypothesis by trying to kill someone with a gun without a gun.

[Spite]

And if you compare a State on the East Coast vs. a State in the Mid-West you are going to get political, economic and social differences which vary on a broad scale.

 

Have you ever visited the United States? I have visited England. We are quite different in my opinion.

And if you visit rural Argyll, or County Durham, or South Yorkshire, you'll find they all have different and unique cultures too. Politically, historically, economically and all the rest-ally. Same with Germany (bavaria and Berlin) or France (marseilles and paris) or any other European country. That isn't something unique to America.

[Doktor Avalanche]

And if you visit rural Argyll, or County Durham, or South Yorkshire, you'll find they all have different and unique cultures too. Politically, historically, economically and all the rest-ally. Same with Germany (bavaria and Berlin) or France (marseilles and paris) or any other European country. That isn't something unique to America.

So then, case in point, how can we have many variables and differences to actually do a huge comparison in regards to factors which can play into statistics doing  comparisons of nations? Interestingly enough someone did do a Statistical layout of gun violence using individual States in the US vs. the World and showed most states in the US were the lowest in the world for gun violence and yet still had the weakest gun laws in the US.

[Spite]

I'm not saying that violence isn't related to culture. If you have a small town where everyone knows each other, respects gun safety and so on it is going to have a better level of gun violence than a dodgy gang infested inner city. But it's the presence of guns that enables people to go on murderous killing sprees. Guns are an enabler.

[Doktor Avalanche]

The fact that guns are more efficient tools of violence compared to other means, such as knives, unarmed assault, etc. These aren't assumptions. You can check the validity of my hypothesis by trying to kill someone with a gun without a gun.

Wait. You initial point is that it is bad to own guns or sell guns because guns give people a quick, efficient way to kill people?

And yet you WANT to disarm people? Do you think disarming people is going to stop gun violence? Delusion much?

[Spite]

If people don't have guns at all I'm pretty sure that precludes the possibility of gun violence

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Wait. You initial point is that it is bad to own guns or sell guns because guns give people a quick, efficient way to kill people?

And yet you WANT to disarm people? Do you think disarming people is going to stop gun violence? Delusion much?

 

Do I think restricting access to guns for a large percentage of the population will lower gun violence? Yes, of course.

[Doktor Avalanche]

I'm not saying that violence isn't related to culture. If you have a small town where everyone knows each other, respects gun safety and so on it is going to have a better level of gun violence than a dodgy gang infested inner city. But it's the presence of guns that enables people to go on murderous killing sprees. Guns are an enabler.

And this is where the discussion goes circular.

 

And this is where I get to say that I disagree wholeheartedly. I see social factors as the enabler, not the tool. Poverty is the largest enabler. it goes back to my original point that we primarily focus on the tool and not the cause only when it comes to violent acts committed with guns. Regionally, gun violence occurs in high poverty areas, especially where gun laws are the strictest.

 

You have been beyond respectable in this discussion Spite. Thank you!

If people don't have guns at all I'm pretty sure that precludes the possibility of gun violence

LOL Not happening in the US.

[Ikhan]

I personally think that only criminals would agree to having gun control laws, I mean, their victims would be defenseless. So yes, I believe people have the right to have a gun and use it when necessary.

[Fox Fire]

Do I think restricting access to guns for a large percentage of the population will lower gun violence? Yes, of course.

Not in the US. It might have worked if we banned guns from day 1, but it's impossible to make a gun ban work in the modern US. There are far too many unregulated firearms throughout the US. Guns that nobody can even know exist. 

 

Regionally, gun violence occurs in high poverty areas, especially where gun laws are the strictest.

 

^So much this. Banning hand guns has failed to do anything for California. 

[Spite]

Not in the US. It might have worked if we banned guns from day 1, but it's impossible to make a gun ban work in the modern US. There are far too many unregulated firearms throughout the US. Guns that nobody can even know exist. 

 

^So much this. Banning hand guns has failed to do anything for California. 

I thought you were Irish?

 

I agree that America is basically a lost cause now. Too much permeation between states really. 

[Fox Fire]

I thought you were Irish?

 

I agree that America is basically a lost cause now. Too much permeation between states really. 

I am. That doesn't mean I live in Ireland. 

I say the US takes a more Swiss approach to gun politics with some differences. The whole reason we are allowed to own guns is to maintain a militia. However, the US doesn't even maintain a militia at all. Instead, we just let everyone buy guns for no apparent reason, and most gun owners likely would not pick up their guns in the event of a homeland invasion. If they did, they would likely be gunned down before they could shoot anyone because owning a gun doesn't make you a soldier.  

Thus, I propose we actually give people a reason to own a gun and literally give everyone a gun. It sounds a whole lot better than tightening gun restrictions and waiting for the next mass shooting to kill dozens of unarmed people. 

[Wayne]

 

Guns don't kill people, runners do!

[Spite]

I am. That doesn't mean I live in Ireland. 

I say the US takes a more Swiss approach to gun politics with some differences. The whole reason we are allowed to own guns is to maintain a militia. However, the US doesn't even maintain a militia at all. Instead, we just let everyone buy guns for no apparent reason, and most gun owners likely would not pick up their guns in the event of a homeland invasion. If they did, they would likely be gunned down before they could shoot anyone because owning a gun doesn't make you a soldier.  

Thus, I propose we actually give people a reason to own a gun and literally give everyone a gun. It sounds a whole lot better than tightening gun restrictions and waiting for the next mass shooting to kill dozens of unarmed people. 

As in actually from Ireland? Just the way you use we a lot when referring to Americans/gun culture, which isn't really a thing o'er eire

[Fox Fire]

As in actually from Ireland? Just the way you use we a lot when referring to Americans/gun culture, which isn't really a thing o'er eire

I was born there, but we moved to the US when I was like 4. I'm Irish by ethnicity, but definitely American by culture and nationality.

[Spite]

I was born there, but we moved to the US when I was like 4. I'm Irish by ethnicity, but definitely American by culture and nationality.

Cool, sorry for 20 questions. I just remember you speak Irish, and that normally means either you're west coast native or you've been forced through the irish education system

[Sailor Jerry]

 

 Maybe that's why the suicide rate in America is double that of the UK.

 

 

It has nothing to do with guns......it's because our beer sucks and we don't have any chippies!!!!!!

[WISD0MTREE]

Brazil is a third world country. 

You are right! We have an illegal immigration crisis from countries where gun control has completely failed! Without a wall or some sort of preventative measures, those illegal guns will end up on our streets in the criminal's' hands. 

 

I would say that right back at you. You would change your opinion when your family is killed by a deranged man who bought guns yesterday. The fact of the matter is, you don't control who gets guns. Sure, there are good people who have guns. But bad people also have guns. Perhaps someone should find some data as to how often guns are used in crime, vs how often gun owners stop crime. 

 

 

Because everyone wears IIIA armor and carries ar-15s to their local Health Department holiday parties.

Because the difference between a trained individual and a crippled old man who has never touched a gun in his life is minimal with guns. 

No I wouldn't. I know that most of my family lives in shitty areas where police might get there in 10 minutes. With guns, they can defend themselves and have a higher chance of surviving than pointing at a "Gun Free Zone" sign. 

 

They didn't have body armor. 

CC classes make you train. And tons of people here in America have been in the military. 

 

-snip-

 

The USA has a very high murder rate compared to other developed countries but its non-firearms murder rate is similar. While it's probable the availability of firearms is largely responsible for this, some people believe that the USA is simply more murderous than other developed nations. This is a depressing - and I hope, wrong - view. Either way, easily available guns are a bad idea.

Your source says "gun murder rate" not "murder rate." 

 

If people don't have guns at all I'm pretty sure that precludes the possibility of gun violence

Yes. Try picking up all 300 million known guns. 

 

"but muh fightah jets"

Fighter jets can't knock down doors to pick up guns. If they bombed a city, I'd bet Russia and/or China would "liberate" the oppressed Americans. 

 

So much this. Banning hand guns has failed to do anything for California. 

This. I mean, unless I misread that 14 people were killed in Texas and nobody was killed, except the would-be-murderers, in California at a drawing contest. 

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Not in the US. It might have worked if we banned guns from day 1, but it's impossible to make a gun ban work in the modern US. There are far too many unregulated firearms throughout the US. Guns that nobody can even know exist. 

 

That is definitely a very large obstacle. However, it doesn't mean one should give up. It means it will take decades to actually reach the sweet spot, and innovative measures and determination are required.

[Fox Fire]

That is definitely a very large obstacle. However, it doesn't mean one should give up. It means it will take decades to actually reach the sweet spot, and innovative measures and determination are required.

Or we could maybe like..... Take an approach that actually works. 

 

Let me give you an example, since you obviously are not from my side of town. 

In my state alone, there are literally countless firearms unaccounted for. Countless firearms and even misc survival gear that is buried in the wilderness for a number of different reasons. Some being criminal, others simply because some nut job thinks the world is going to end and needs to stockpile a bunch of shit in some hidden location. In this state, you do not have to register your firearms. Meaning you can own a gun that not even the government will ever know about. You can carry just about any not automatic weapon wherever you want. Gun laws are almost non-existent in my state. This includes similar gun laws throughout other states in the general area.

There are literally thousands of firearms in the US that nobody has way to prove even exist, let alone track down. I personally know of a general area where automatic firearms were buried from clear back in the 60's. Based on what I know about how they were buried, I'm completely sure that you could dig them up as we speak and they would fire absolutely fine. The person who organized all of this thought they would be needed for the end of days. Yet from what I've heard, nobody knows of them ever being dug up. The people who originally buried them are either dead or have realized how absurd the whole thing was after growing up. So to my knowledge, they are likely still buried, covered in grease, plastic and cased inside wooden crates. 

But that is simply one example from my own personal experience. The one I feel comfortable enough to post about online. There are countless other examples of very similar things all across the United States, but most notably would likely be the criminal organizations that buy and sell illegal weapons simply by logging onto the internet. You can literally buy anything on the internet. I've bought drugs on the internet. I myself have never delved too deep into the dark web, but I've heard of military grade explosives on the black market. Accessible to anyone with a computer and an internet connection. However, criminal organizations and groups get extremely more complex about these things than the simple conversation that you and I are having now. They can be so complex that anyone observing may not even see anything wrong. Example: Prison codes. Codes are frequently used in prisons to communicate things right under peoples noses. A man in prison can order the killing of another without ever actually saying it. Combine that with the simple fact that America as a nation produces more firearms than any nation could ever hope to, you have a self feeding recipe. 

Criminals are not stupid. In fact, their very existence in such strong and organized numbers to this very day is a sheer sign of their brilliance if nothing else. You can think what you want about everything I've said, but I grew up on a certain path, which I ignorantly chose to follow. I've come to learn a whole lot about what people can do when they are organized. I'd like to think I'm quite streetwise across the North Western United States. I shudder to think what types of organization may lie further south. Hence, I stopped hanging around gangbangers a long time ago. I had my peek at what it's like. It's not fun. 

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Or we could maybe like..... Take an approach that actually works. 

 

Let me give you an example, since you obviously are not from my side of town. 

In my state alone, there are literally countless firearms unaccounted for. Countless firearms and even misc survival gear that is buried in the wilderness for a number of different reasons. Some being criminal, others simply because some nut job thinks the world is going to end and needs to stockpile a bunch of shit in some hidden location. In this state, you do not have to register your firearms. Meaning you can own a gun that not even the government will ever know about. You can carry just about any not automatic weapon wherever you want. Gun laws are almost non-existent in my state. This includes similar gun laws throughout other states in the general area.

There are literally thousands of firearms in the US that nobody has way to prove even exist, let alone track down. I personally know of a general area where automatic firearms were buried from clear back in the 60's. Based on what I know about how they were buried, I'm completely sure that you could dig them up as we speak and they would fire absolutely fine. The person who organized all of this thought they would be needed for the end of days. Yet from what I've heard, nobody knows of them ever being dug up. The people who originally buried them are either dead or have realized how absurd the whole thing was after growing up. So to my knowledge, they are likely still buried, covered in grease, plastic and cased inside wooden crates. 

But that is simply one example from my own personal experience. The one I feel comfortable enough to post about online. There are countless other examples of very similar things all across the United States, but most notably would likely be the criminal organizations that buy and sell illegal weapons simply by logging onto the internet. You can literally buy anything on the internet. I've bought drugs on the internet. I myself have never delved too deep into the dark web, but I've heard of military grade explosives on the black market. Accessible to anyone with a computer and an internet connection. However, criminal organizations and groups get extremely more complex about these things than the simple conversation that you and I are having now. They can be so complex that anyone observing may not even see anything wrong. Example: Prison codes. Codes are frequently used in prisons to communicate things right under peoples noses. A man in prison can order the killing of another without ever actually saying it. Combine that with the simple fact that America as a nation produces more firearms than any nation could ever hope to, you have a self feeding recipe. 

Criminals are not stupid. In fact, their very existence in such strong and organized numbers to this very day is a sheer sign of their brilliance if nothing else. You can think what you want about everything I've said, but I grew up on a certain path, which I ignorantly chose to follow. I've come to learn a whole lot about what people can do when they are organized. I'd like to think I'm quite streetwise across the North Western United States. I shudder to think what types of organization may lie further south. Hence, I stopped hanging around gangbangers a long time ago. I had my peek at what it's like. It's not fun. 

 

Thanks for the conspiracy theories, but I think preventing the average Joe the Nutjob from getting his hands on a gun without considerable financial cost and risk of getting caught is enough.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Thanks for the conspiracy theories, but I think preventing the average Joe the Nutjob from getting his hands on a gun without considerable financial cost and risk of getting caught is enough.

Have you ever discharged a firearm before?