Should Great Britain leave the EU?

[Robert Ap Ioan]

 They're scum, the current government yes. That should however be irrelevant especially when you remember Cameron's government will collapse immediately if he loses this.

Whilst yes this is true we don't know what impact leaving Europe will have on us in Britain. We really don't know at this time.

 

We, as a consequence of financial incompetence by the current government, are going through an extended period of financial instability. By taking away our trading agreements this is likely to increase as an issue. We really don't know what will happen. If Cameron goes Boris is likely to rise to the top and we all know how bad that would be - another politician who says what he believes people want to hear. We really don't know what he stands for and the same goes for Donald Trump in the USA.

 

As for Wales, I speak as a Welshman first and Brit second, I suspect we will lose out. Westminster has always been tight when it comes to funding Wales and the North of Britain. We probably will be the areas to really feel the loss of European funding, mainly I suspect because Westminster doesn't and won't have the nous to pour money into areas that actually need it. I see the Northern powerhouse is doing well!

 

I think the result will be very close and whatever happens will have momentous implications for our nations. I fear for Wales and the bits north of London. I suspect if the vote is for leave then I will be joining a growing number of people calling for greater independence from London.

[Rozalia]

1. I come from a working class, northern, mining village and was raised on a council estate. I lifted myself up by my own bootstraps and now I have a fairly decent job in London. I'm by no means wealthy.

2. I don't support a federalised Europe, and neither do most people who want to stay. I support a trade union with an attached decision making body to establish those trade rules. I'd rather said body was as democratic as possible.

 

On the racism point, it's not racist to state that black people are taller and better runners (this isn't true btw, the tallest people are white and live in the dinaric alps, and then the dutch and so on, and there's nothing more than circumstantial evidence to show they're better runners - it's like saying that white people are better at tennis because most tennis players are white). However you're right, pointing out the tiny differences between races is not racist. Saying someone has black skin or epicanthal folds is not racist. However saying black people are less intelligent or inferior to white people is racist because it's prejudiced and has no factual basis- it's small minded discrimination.

 

Give me one reason at a time why you think the EU is bad for the UK. I'll post my counterargument and then we'll move on to another point.

 

1: I know the angle, you hear it from any working class person who is a well off enough Tory (now Red Tories too I suppose). As I usually say when Our Dear Communist Friends attack the rich, a class isn't the same across it's entirety. It's great you did that but way I see it you're against your background, seemingly thinking you're better than "the stupid people".

2: So what happens when they come knocking about it? As you have so happily said the younger generation has already been demoralised into believing in the EU. What happens when they demoralise the next generation even further and if you speak against it... you're met with talk of being a racist nationalist and someone living in the 1930s for believing in a nation state? 

 

Just one? Fine, though I feel you'll use that to your advantage. The number 1 reason to me above all others is sovereignty in the short term, and long term stopping the possibility in future of being absorbed into an actual European "Superstate". They have demoralised people successfully and will if we let them try the next generation even further to get their Superstate. This demoralising is however not perfect and once you close off the democratic apparatus then patriots will start becoming terrorists.

 

Now yes, even though you perhaps don't believe it the EU may well implode and disintegrate before they can bring such unification about. I'm not going to take such chances. 

 

Whilst yes this is true we don't know what impact leaving Europe will have on us in Britain. We really don't know at this time.

 

We, as a consequence of financial incompetence by the current government, are going through an extended period of financial instability. By taking away our trading agreements this is likely to increase as an issue. We really don't know what will happen. If Cameron goes Boris is likely to rise to the top and we all know how bad that would be - another politician who says what he believes people want to hear. We really don't know what he stands for and the same goes for Donald Trump in the USA.

 

As for Wales, I speak as a Welshman first and Brit second, I suspect we will lose out. Westminster has always been tight when it comes to funding Wales and the North of Britain. We probably will be the areas to really feel the loss of European funding, mainly I suspect because Westminster doesn't and won't have the nous to pour money into areas that actually need it. I see the Northern powerhouse is doing well!

 

I think the result will be very close and whatever happens will have momentous implications for our nations. I fear for Wales and the bits north of London. I suspect if the vote is for leave then I will be joining a growing number of people calling for greater independence from London.

 

Who knows how it'll be within the EU? 

 

The Tories are scum yes, however like with Scotland the fear of the Tories is not a valid argument here. The EU panders to be popular within such areas so they can move in the direction of the Superstate. You think once they have it... they won't just focus on London and stop caring about everywhere else? Of course that'll be what happens. 

 

I don't even think London should be the capital, I detest what it represents to me that much, not that it is the fault of the common people there of course. I don't however believe in decentralisation... I believe it's possible to have a central authority that doesn't consolidate everything in their precious "global city" and it's surrounding areas. 

[Spite]

What do you mean sovereignty? What sovereignty do you imagine we'd gain by leaving.

 

A superstate is impossible. Treaty changes requires the signatures of all members, unanimously. It's extremely unlikely.

 

BTW I didn't realise being middle class made me a tory. I guess more than half the country are tories then. Obviously the world is divided into tories and true working class national socialists like you.

[SoS]

What is this supposed to mean exactly? Go on.

It's amusing that you criticize multiculturalism and various cultures. But, you are offended by and defend against criticism of your culture. Your culture is the marginalized minority culture

[Robert Ap Ioan]

 

The Tories are scum yes, however like with Scotland the fear of the Tories is not a valid argument here. The EU panders to be popular within such areas so they can move in the direction of the Superstate.

 

Personally I can't imagine the French voting to allow a superstate, or any of the other countries if I am honest. Yes the Tories are scum at the moment, unfortunately Tory party members tend to vote whereas Labour members feel betrayed and defeated by despair.

What is concerning is a rise in what traditionally be called far-right groups like the EDL and Britain First. UKIP also fall into this grouping although not so extreme. It is interesting to note that the majority of UKIP's leadership is of the Thatcherite Tory background - it sickens me that Socialist types would consider voting for such low-lifes.

 

I don't however believe in decentralisation... I believe it's possible to have a central authority that doesn't consolidate everything in their precious "global city" and it's surrounding areas.

Alas I don't agree with you on this. As long as Government is in a centralised state we will have failures of democracy such as Rydale and Tryweryn. You seem to think that once we are rid of the Tories everything will be hunky dory if we leave Europe yet I don't see how this can be. Most of our produce exporting is dependant on being able to travel through European airspace/water. If the European Union wanted to screw us over it would be very easy for them to do so. Successive governments have destroyed our self sufficiency, just as successive governments have ignored democracy. People complain about the EU being undemocratic but maybe they should look closer to home.

 

Here are some facts.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Robert Ap Ioan

[Rozalia]

What do you mean sovereignty? What sovereignty do you imagine we'd gain by leaving.

 

A superstate is impossible. Treaty changes requires the signatures of all members, unanimously. It's extremely unlikely.

 

BTW I didn't realise being middle class made me a tory. I guess more than half the country are tories then. Obviously the world is divided into tories and true working class national socialists like you.

 

Your usual dishonest tactics as expected.

 

First off you cut in half something that had no business being cut in half. You asked for one reason so I gave one reason, it went beyond what you cut in half. Second, I know full well this is one of your questions where you have already decided there is no valid answer so you will mock any given and if I don't provide one you'll prance about like it shows your correctness on the matter. Last time was in regards to culture and I gave you the chance to prove me wrong and you did as I said. This time I won't play your game. I've already answered your question so go back to that if you wish, I'm not going to play your game of giving answers so you can rule they're invalid and throw some insults and "lols" in there.

 

Ah yes. Don't worry, it's possible, but won't happen. The post you quoted already has my answer to that, which is I'm not in the business of taking my chances with such a thing. Beyond that the EU started much different to what it is today. The people never wanted many of the things we've gotten, we were never asked and yet we got them... it was all impossible then too and yet here we are.

 

You find some words, rip them out of context and proclaim I am <insert attack>. Last time you did it to call me a sexist, that I believed all women should remain in the kitchen when in the very post you attacked I stated I disagreed with someone who said such a thing, but the combination of words you could rip out was there so on you went. Even after you quickly dropped it afterwards you never apologised for such dishonesty as someone of good character would.

 

You've done it to call me a Racist, Sexist, Nazi, and now Classist it seems. No. What I said is that it is good if you raised your class, I'm no Communist in regards to this matter. There are poor people for the rich, and rich for the poor. If people have read my posts they've seen me argue with a certain person here that rich people aren't automatically "the enemy" just because they're rich. Now for yourself what makes you a Red Tory is not that you're middle class no. What makes you a Red Tory is firstly you have even admitted as such, you're one of New Labours "centre left" lot. You carry yourself with their usual arrogance and you attack your own people, the poorest of them in fact while defending minorities from the smallest of slights even though I don't believe you even like them (like most of your lot). Thats what makes you a Red Tory, not your class. 

 

So yes I believe we're done now, no need to answer further, not that you ever really do (you always skip the majority to attack little picked out points). Long story short you think I'm a Uneducated !@#$ WHITE MALE Nazi Scum. While I think you're a very dishonest person who does numerous dishonest tricks because it's what you have to stoop to. 

 

It's amusing that you criticize multiculturalism and various cultures. But, you are offended by and defend against criticism of your culture. Your culture is the marginalized minority culture

 

That so.

 

marginalize

treat (a person, group, or concept) as insignificant or peripheral.

"by removing religion from the public space, we marginalize it"

 

The main culture has been marginalized, for Nationalism, for a strong National Fraternity are the greatest weapon to fight what we're dealing with. The main enemies involved are: Mass Immigration to reduce the homogeneity of the country. Multiculturalism as immigration with integration is a good thing, so you got to make sure people are divided and you also of course state that the main culture "never really existed" too (Spite has done this on here before, demoralisation is truly a terrible thing). Political Correctness to act as the shield and sword to protect the previous two from anyone who speaks out against them. And finally all this done for their master, Globalism. 

 

In actuality I have a lot of respect for a lot of cultures, I have great solidarity with them in fact. We're all in the west (and in some other countries too) being attacked by the most insidious force the world has ever seen. 

 

Personally I can't imagine the French voting to allow a superstate, or any of the other countries if I am honest. Yes the Tories are scum at the moment, unfortunately Tory party members tend to vote whereas Labour members feel betrayed and defeated by despair.

What is concerning is a rise in what traditionally be called far-right groups like the EDL and Britain First. UKIP also fall into this grouping although not so extreme. It is interesting to note that the majority of UKIP's leadership is of the Thatcherite Tory background - it sickens me that Socialist types would consider voting for such low-lifes.

Alas I don't agree with you on this. As long as Government is in a centralised state we will have failures of democracy such as Rydale and Tryweryn. You seem to think that once we are rid of the Tories everything will be hunky dory if we leave Europe yet I don't see how this can be. Most of our produce exporting is dependant on being able to travel through European airspace/water. If the European Union wanted to screw us over it would be very easy for them to do so. Successive governments have destroyed our self sufficiency, just as successive governments have ignored democracy. People complain about the EU being undemocratic but maybe they should look closer to home.

 

Here are some facts.

 

People can't imagine many things and then down the line they happen.

 

The mainstream parties have followed globalism, they treat the working class like the enemy. "Socialist types" as you put them vote for the "Far-right" because the Far-Right doesn't treat them like an enemy, but says they will help them. Socialists across Europe have betrayed the people they were supposed to help. You say it makes you sick they'd vote for the Far-Right? Well I wouldn't use such a strong term, but if I was to be sick at something it'd be those "Socialist Types" who still vote for those who have betrayed them. 

 

To be a bit more clear. Freedom from the Tories but not just the blue variety. Nationalist mindset of the country and it's people first would result in better governance. 

 

They won't screw us over to such a degree, perhaps in the first couple of years but no further. Remember they are slaves to coin and holding a grudge against a major nation means a loss of a lot of money for them. They'll justify giving us "special treatment" to their rowdy members by stating that the British are terrible people who have always hated Europe so they don't want them in the EU anyway or something to that effect. 

 

I already stated that the economic argument even if it were true and I'm not going to waste our time arguing it as like I said I don't care for it, though I will say the zealots gave the same doom and gloom about not joining the Euro and look what happened. Were they proven correct on the Euro? No, horribly wrong. Propaganda is just that, propaganda. My reason for rejecting the EU is much more important to me than if the economy is 4% weaker if we leave or not.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Rozalia

[Lannan13]

Though I'm not well read on this subject, I thank Miss Thatcher that she kept the UK from accepting the Euro as their currency. 

[Orraine]

Frankly, I'll be happy to see the back of the UK, since they've been obstructionist, preventing reforms of the very things they've been complaining about, if it wasn't for the fact that this may lead to the fall of the EU and a consignment to irrelevance for most of the member states.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Orraine

[James Hequ]

When you want to join in but you know shit about economics

[tenk]

Thats the beauty of the public discourse on this issue. You don't need to know anything about economics, how to regurgitate propaganda suffices. 

 

The crux of this issue (at least for the Brexit side) is one of Immigration and control over one's borders and I don't really believe that it amounts to much more than that for the majority of the laypeople. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Ibnar

[Mayor]

Thats the beauty of the public discourse on this issue. You don't need to know anything about economics, how to regurgitate propaganda suffices. 

 

The crux of this issue (at least for the Brexit side) is one of Immigration and control over one's borders and I don't really believe that it amounts to much more than that for the majority of the laypeople. 

 

Not only this issue, but most political arguments. Unless someone studies the issue on their own time through multiple sources or is an expert then most likely they are just repeating what they saw on the news etc. If you heard it from a friend then they might have heard it on the news; however that does not mean it is incorrect but just to be taken as a specific viewpoint that may or may not be correct.

 

One night I was watching TV and I saw a very intense anti-Putin, anti-Russian ad that was sponsored by the Canadian government. I know a lot about Putin/Russia/USSR and they made him seem particularly evil and satanic. They had a close up of him as well frowning, and made it look like he was a scheming sociopath. This was on CBC, a very renowned Canadian network. (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) Everything isn't always so black and white like that commercial but it just shows that propaganda is a part of our everyday lives. Regardless of your opinion of Putin the commercial made it seem like he wanted nothing short of global conquest and we had to stop him; no relevant information was given besides Putin being a maniac. The propaganda about this probably isn't the same but if you see a TV ad saying the UK is going to implode ASAP as they leave the EU then obviously that is a lie.

[Robert Ap Ioan]

The benefit of living in a late Victorian terrace is that we don't have the roof space for a shower and I have to be content with having a bath instead. The joy is that this gives me time to muse and think. I am finding myself very cynical at present about the whole EU referendum.

 

It seems clear to me that most people are agreed that the EU needs reformation. It is becoming something it should never have become but how can we expect reformation when some MEPs have put no effort into doing so?  In fact there was a video, that alas I have failed to find, where a certain merchant banking Brexiter is challenged by his fellow MEPs who quite rightly ask him what he has done for the people he "represents."

 

Here is the crux of my problem.

 

I know what mister Cameron and his supporters stand for. I know their vile ideology only too well - the growth between rich and poor is growing constantly, alas he played the man of the people card well and got in.

Do we know what ideology Boris and Farage espouse? One minute they'll say one thing and as soon as that statement is inopportune they ditch it in favour of one that gains votes - whether the two statements are contradictory or not doesn't matter. It is the same game that Mr Trump has been playing in America. They all have their buzzwords and yet the message they send out has no substance or consistency.  I hold politicians like Dennis Skinner, Jeremy Corbyn and Leanne Wood in high regard because they have proven they speak with consistency and belief - Dennis Skinner will never be a front bencher because of his principles.

 

What we need is a country lead by people of principle rather than people who seek power and wealth. Alas those in power seldom share it. So here is my question to you all. If the UK votes to leave, who wins and who benefits?

[James Hequ]

Thats the beauty of the public discourse on this issue. You don't need to know anything about economics, how to regurgitate propaganda suffices. 

 

The crux of this issue (at least for the Brexit side) is one of Immigration and control over one's borders and I don't really believe that it amounts to much more than that for the majority of the laypeople.

 

yes but I like understanding what I am talking about. I would love to talk but I would either win against a guy that knows nothing, louse against a guy who knows nothing, or I get mop the floor with by a guy who knows what he is talking about. The only thing I read about this was a single Forbes article about this.

[Rozalia]

The benefit of living in a late Victorian terrace is that we don't have the roof space for a shower and I have to be content with having a bath instead. The joy is that this gives me time to muse and think. I am finding myself very cynical at present about the whole EU referendum.

 

It seems clear to me that most people are agreed that the EU needs reformation. It is becoming something it should never have become but how can we expect reformation when some MEPs have put no effort into doing so?  In fact there was a video, that alas I have failed to find, where a certain merchant banking Brexiter is challenged by his fellow MEPs who quite rightly ask him what he has done for the people he "represents."

 

Here is the crux of my problem.

 

I know what mister Cameron and his supporters stand for. I know their vile ideology only too well - the growth between rich and poor is growing constantly, alas he played the man of the people card well and got in.

Do we know what ideology Boris and Farage espouse? One minute they'll say one thing and as soon as that statement is inopportune they ditch it in favour of one that gains votes - whether the two statements are contradictory or not doesn't matter. It is the same game that Mr Trump has been playing in America. They all have their buzzwords and yet the message they send out has no substance or consistency.  I hold politicians like Dennis Skinner, Jeremy Corbyn and Leanne Wood in high regard because they have proven they speak with consistency and belief - Dennis Skinner will never be a front bencher because of his principles.

 

What we need is a country lead by people of principle rather than people who seek power and wealth. Alas those in power seldom share it. So here is my question to you all. If the UK votes to leave, who wins and who benefits?

 

You think MEPs, that'd be just the Anti-EU MEPs at that (zealots don't want reform), have any power to do any such thing? The EU is already in reality a sort of state as it has many of the things a state has... it's loose however and doesn't have complete authority throughout it. Reformation in such things goes in the direction of bringing direct control about, not becoming looser.

 

Jeremy Corbyn is not exactly the best person to bring up considering he was Anti-EU... until he became Labour leader, even though being in the EU would make his plan to nationalise the railways impossible. 

 

Well actually he had... the media fully behind him. Labour had been in power for over a decade. Gordon Brown was heavily unpopular and seen as incompetent, he was also "unelected" which shows how the media doesn't fufill that grandiose function they're supposed to (the prime minister isn't elected). Cameron's disabled son died the previous year so attacking him on the NHS and hurting disabled people (which he claimed he loved for the care of his son) they became scared of doing fully. It was also around that time (well it's been there since the start of Blair but it was getting bigger) that disillusionment with New Labour started becoming more significant. 

Cameron even with all that barely managed it and had to form a coalition with the Suicide pact known as the Lib Dems.  

In regards to the second election Labour once again had a bad leader who had successfully been painted as a joke. His biggest worry was UKIP who were tipped to "give it to Labour", but anybody who actually knew what they were talking about knew they'd hurt Labour, not help it. Cameron being a weak leader (any half credible Labour leader would have beaten him badly), he gave in to UKIP in a case of appeasement and gave this referendum. 

 

Did you not in your previous post state UKIP were Thatcherite Tories? How can you say that and yet not know? UKIP aren't great for the working class that much is certain however when all the other parties are outright hostile to the working class (supporting the EU and mass immigration) it became very easy for UKIP to become the "workers party".

 

And staying in the EU accomplishes that how? 

 

This sounds like one of those questions. What are you looking for exactly? I've seen that question answered with Vladimir Putin, Abu Baghdadi, Marie Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Donald Trump, <insert other ridiculousness here>. If in regards to the citizenry it'd depend on if the ruling party put in place the correct policies or not. In regards to the EU it may well be the death knell. 

[Robert Ap Ioan]

I'm a bit busy this evening so will answer this properly later but I can answer one point very quickly

 

 

even though being in the EU would make his plan to nationalise the railways impossible. 

 

 

 

 

Seems to work quite well for Deutsche Bundes Bahn and SNCF et al. Britain is comparatively unusual in having a majority privatised railway system. Remember the East Coast mainline was renationalised a few years back, under the Coalition government if I remember correctly. The EU has nothing to do with Government's desire to have as little to do with the Railways as possible. In fact all the Railways are owned by the government, it is just the trains and the companies that run them that aren't.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Robert Ap Ioan

[Rozalia]

Seems to work quite well for Deutsche Bundes Bahn and SNCF et al. Britain is comparatively unusual in having a majority privatised railway system. Remember the East Coast mainline was renationalised a few years back, under the Coalition government if I remember correctly. The EU has nothing to do with Government's desire to have as little to do with the Railways as possible. In fact all the Railways are owned by the government, it is just the trains and the companies that run them that aren't.

 

If something is privatised it'd become impossible under the EU to get it back fully. If they want to block it they will. East Coast Mainline was nationalised because while the private company was incompetent as is normal, they were so poor the government had to step in (Tories hate nationalisation so if they have to you know things are bad). From what is said it was ran well for the time it was nationalised and made money unlike it's previous two private operators... meaning it could be handed back to private hands. To the Tories if a National service does badly then thats because it's national and should be handed to private hands. If a national service does well then clearly making it private would make it even better. It's the greedy corrupt stooges worshiping the Free Market Holy Ghost as they do. 

 

To make matters worse with TTIP coming, something the EU is fully for, it'll be the end for Nationalisation. At least if the British Tories do it it's a simple matter to revoke. If it's done while in the EU try and get yourself out of it then (you can't then except by leaving the EU). Only hope at this point is President Trump ripping it up but that would only delay it for a dozen years or so.

[SoS]

The benefit of living in a late Victorian terrace is that we don't have the roof space for a shower and I have to be content with having a bath instead. The joy is that this gives me time to muse and think. I am finding myself very cynical at present about the whole EU referendum.

 

It seems clear to me that most people are agreed that the EU needs reformation. It is becoming something it should never have become but how can we expect reformation when some MEPs have put no effort into doing so? In fact there was a video, that alas I have failed to find, where a certain merchant banking Brexiter is challenged by his fellow MEPs who quite rightly ask him what he has done for the people he "represents."

 

Here is the crux of my problem.

 

I know what mister Cameron and his supporters stand for. I know their vile ideology only too well - the growth between rich and poor is growing constantly, alas he played the man of the people card well and got in.

Do we know what ideology Boris and Farage espouse? One minute they'll say one thing and as soon as that statement is inopportune they ditch it in favour of one that gains votes - whether the two statements are contradictory or not doesn't matter. It is the same game that Mr Trump has been playing in America. They all have their buzzwords and yet the message they send out has no substance or consistency. I hold politicians like Dennis Skinner, Jeremy Corbyn and Leanne Wood in high regard because they have proven they speak with consistency and belief - Dennis Skinner will never be a front bencher because of his principles.

 

What we need is a country lead by people of principle rather than people who seek power and wealth. Alas those in power seldom share it. So here is my question to you all. If the UK votes to leave, who wins and who benefits?

What difference does it make? People with deep pockets represent both sides and stand to gain either way. Common people take whatever they are given.

 

It doesn't matter to them, they hedge their bets in less than this. They're going to come out ahead whatever way Britain goes.

[Spite]

Rozalia typically failed at the very first question. Not surprising since there is zero logic to the leave campaign.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

The conservative argument for "Brexit" - that is "national sovereignty", doesn't hold any weight. If it was about sovereignty, then the UK should also leave NATO, the World Bank, and IMF and other international institutions, some of which influence the UK's internal politics just as much as the EU. The fact that the debate is all about "breaking away from Brussels" tells you all you need to know, it's about moving British foreign policy away from the European Continent and to the Atlantic - that is the United States. The European continent is more liberal and left-wing, which the Tories and their right-wing fellow travelers despise, they'd much rather Britain be a satellite state of American capitalism. There's also a distinctly nativist, anti-immigration tinge to "Brexit", because the open movement of people within the EU established by the Schengen Agreement. These Tories will shout their fury at the UK being "dominated" by the EU, but if you ask them what they think of the EU being dominated by the United States since the end of WW2 and the creation of NATO, well they won't say much at all. Somehow the EU making some human rights laws is such a huge violation of UK sovereignty, but the fact that the UK's armed forces is under the control of a foreign (US-domination) international organization is not worthy of even a mention. Hypocrisy, these people wouldn't bat an eye at the UK being a slave to Wall Street and Washingston, but the fact that some brown people are using Schengen to immigrate to Britain - outrageous!   

Edited June 7, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[Rozalia]

Rozalia typically failed at the very first question. Not surprising since there is zero logic to the leave campaign.

 

I'm happy you've devolved to that extent already, usually takes a while from you to go from ignoring the majority of my posts to them in their entirety... oh well saves me some bother. Your first question there was already answered in the post you quoted, you dishonestly had to cut my previous response in half. You then did as you do and presented a question you had already decided there was no valid answer and are now playing the mocking game.

 

So you're just going to ignore everything to proclaim victory via "you have zero logic". Alright cool. I'd not expect a demoralised Red Tory to be able to even see the issue. 

 

I don't mind arguing with people, but I don't think I will with someone as dishonest as you much more. You take positions you don't believe all so you can argue with me (for example defending Mohammad and then later attacking Mohammad in nastier ways then I did), you will ignore the majority of my posts so you can present a question already answered but reframed in a manner where you have decided there is no valid/correct answer and any response is met with insults/mocking, and of course when you run out of options you will just ignore everything and proclaim some victory because I'm a "dum dum" (many variations). 

 

You're the most dishonest person here, Dishonest Spite. Congratulations. 

 

The conservative argument for "Brexit" - that is "national sovereignty", doesn't hold any weight. If it was about sovereignty, then the UK should also leave NATO, the World Bank, and IMF and other international institutions, some of which influence the UK's internal politics just as much as the EU. The fact that the debate is all about "breaking away from Brussels" tells you all you need to know, it's about moving British foreign policy away from the European Continent and to the Atlantic - that is the United States. The European continent is more liberal and left-wing, which the Tories and their right-wing fellow travelers despise, they'd much rather Britain be a satellite state of American capitalism. There's also a distinctly nativist, anti-immigration tinge to "Brexit", because the open movement of people within the EU established by the Schengen Agreement. These Tories will shout their fury at the UK being "dominated" by the EU, but if you ask them what they think of the EU being dominated by the United States since the end of WW2 and the creation of NATO, well they won't say much at all. Somehow the EU making some human rights laws is such a huge violation of UK sovereignty, but the fact that the UK's armed forces is under the control of a foreign (US-domination) international organization is not worthy of even a mention. Hypocrisy, these people wouldn't bat an eye at the UK being a slave to Wall Street and Washingston, but the fact that some brown people are using Schengen to immigrate to Britain - outrageous! 

 

Again with this. Obama is fully behind Remain and being in the EU has never stopped Britain going in on something with America. There is a large difference between NATO and those others and the EU, not that I agree with any of those listed either. 

 

Britain ain't in the Schengen area. Human Right laws are irrelevant to this, we're not going back to Victorian times if the EU's laws are lifted. The moment Labour gets in they'll likely put something down if something isn't done yet. 

 

As a Communist you as usual throw your support for something that renders your ideology dead in the water. Good job. 

[Andrezj Kolarov]

 

Again with this. Obama is fully behind Remain

So? Obama is irrelevant at this stage. You talk as if Obama is the be-all and end-all of everything American. I'm pointing out that America is a far-right country with a completely repressed labor union movement (due to Cold War union-busting, anti-union laws etc), no universal health care system, no real welfare system or unemployment benefit, a young generation completely enslaved to debt so they can get education, a police force that beats and murders innocent people, an imperialistic foreign policy based on bombing foreign nations and sending arms to terrorists, and other evil things. The UK's Tories love America compared to the European continent for those reasons.

 

There is a large difference between NATO and those others and the EU, not that I agree with any of those listed either. 

Lol, yes having the British armed forces under the command of a foreign international organization (NATO) is not a big deal. Having British austerity and budget policies dictated by the IMF and World Bank or by American-based debt ratings systems isn't a big deal either I guess. You really are deluded.

 

 

Human Right laws are irrelevant to this, we're not going back to Victorian times if the EU's laws are lifted. The moment Labour gets in they'll likely put something down if something isn't done yet. 

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of supporting Brexit while also supporting NATO, the IMF and the World Bank.

 

As a Communist you as usual throw your support for something that renders your ideology dead in the water. Good job.

I support nations having true sovereignty in politics and economics, no EU, no NATO, none of that.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[Rozalia]

So? Obama is irrelevant at this stage. You talk as if Obama is the be-all and end-all of everything American. I'm pointing out that America is a far-right country with a completely repressed labor union movement (due to past anti-Communist/Red scare campaigns, union-busting, anti-union laws etc), no universal health care system

 

 

 

Lol, yes having the British armed forces under the command of a foreign international organization (NATO) is not a big deal. Having British austerity and budget policies dictated by the IMF and World Bank or by American-based debt ratings systems isn't a big deal either I guess. You really are deluded.

 

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of supporting Brexit while also supporting NATO, the IMF and the World Bank.

 

I support nations having true sovereignty in politics and economics, no EU, no NATO, none of that.

 

Indeed Obama is irrelevant as President Trump is who matters on that matter as I said that last time it came up. However it goes beyond Obama and outside a few such as usual Trump, American politicians are largely for Remain if they care enough about the issue.

 

Shoot off as many dismissive negative remarks as you like, they have no bite if you have to distort what I said. I did not say they weren't a "big deal", I said they were less of one than the EU. I also stated I disagreed with all 3 anyway so to attack me on that is most odd. 

 

First off there is no point muddying the message by overloading it, we can take out the EU and take the rest in time. If Corbyn was a bit braver and his party wasn't infested by Red Tories then perhaps he'd pull the country out of NATO. Anyway, I already stated I disagree with all 3 so it's not a relevant counter point to me. I really do not care if you even were correct, Tories are terrible, tell me something thats new. 

 

So why support the EU in this? You explain that it's because they'll just switch to America but... so what even if so? Made all the more odd as Britain leaving would likely be the death knell for the EU. If you want the EU to end sooner rather than later than Remain is not the answer.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

I don't support the EU.

[Rozalia]

I don't support the EU.

 

Then perhaps you can stop exclusively attacking Leave? Otherwise you might as well. 

[tenk]

As much as I despise Farage (and Cameron to be fair) I do believe he got the better of Cameron, even if the UK does vote remain there will be substantial campaigning for the reform of the EU. That reform will, I fear, do little (if anything) for the European Union as a whole. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Ibnar