nationalism?

[Fox Fire]

No. Nono. No this is wrong. Zionism may be tied to the religion, but it is NOT the reason for Israel's state occupation. You need to stop tying the religion to the state. Seriously. People that see Israel and Judaism as one begin to hate Jews for that reason.

 

Likud and Netanyahu are extremists, not regular Jews. And I'd very very loosely define the Likud party as full of 'Jews'. Don't blame the religion for the states actions. 

Israel and Judaism are NOT one in the same. Zionism and Israel ARE one in the same. I know there are plenty on anti-Zionist Jews for example. I'm not blaming the religion itself. This thread is about nationalism, no?

 

 

No. Genocide is genocide. As in its the same thing as genocide. Now since you are hinting around an actual definition of genocide I will ask you to attempt to prove that Israel sanctions "mass murder".

 

No, not in the slightest. Israel has overwhelming regional strength and is far from "too busy" with internal security.

 

No. I am defining Nazi Germany, which was a State not an ideology, based on its genocidal actions. I give less than 2 shits about what Hitler said. I care what he did. This is important because I can compare it to what Israel does and note that they are not the same.

This allows me to easily and without any qualms conclude that this statement is false:

"Israel is the Jewish equivalent of Nazi Germany." -FoxFire

 

So you have STILL yet to defend your claim. Provide evidence that that actions of the State of Israel are equivalent to the State of Nazi Germany.

I just gave you an argument that Israel condones mass murder. 30 days in jail for murder and protecting their soldiers from international courts. indiscriminately killing hundreds of children and calling it justified. No, it's not genocide, but for the ten billionth time, that's not what defines Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany would have still been Nazi Germany without murdering Jews. In comparison, Israel would still be Israel without murdering Palestinians. It's their nationalist superiority complex that leads to their inhumanity. 

I really don't see why Jews need a state so badly that murdering hundreds of children in a few weeks is justified. Taoists don't have a state. We don't need one. Neither does any other religion.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Fox Fire

[LordRahl2]

For "the billionth time" it is absolutley what "defines" Nazi Germany.

 

With a few notable exceptions (who are often for this very reason legitimately compared to Nazi Germany) this is precisely what defines them in a modern historical context.

 

Imperial Germany conducted offensive operations against its neighbors and it is not considered in the same context.

 

Now we can absolutly talk about the morality of what Israel does. You will find me willing to discuss this.

 

However, your argumentative starting point is dead wrong. Of that there is no doubt and you do not have a leg to stand on.

[Fox Fire]

For "the billionth time" it is absolutley what "defines" Nazi Germany.

 

With a few notable exceptions (who are often for this very reason legitimately compared to Nazi Germany) this is precisely what defines them in a modern historical context.

 

Imperial Germany conducted offensive operations against its neighbors and it is not considered in the same context.

 

Now we can absolutly talk about the morality of what Israel does. You will find me willing to discuss this.

 

However, your argumentative starting point is dead wrong. Of that there is no doubt and you do not have a leg to stand on.

No, it's not. If so, the native American genocide and slavery is what defines the USA. Stalins purge defines the USSR and dead Palestinian children is what defines Israel. The holocaust was an action of Nazi Germanies leadership. It was not, not has it ever been, the definition of Nazi Germany. 

All killing aside, assuming neither the Nazis or Israelis killed anyone, they would still be the same states. 

So we've been through 6 pages now and all you've done is regurgitate the exact thing: Genocide (a word that you brought up, not me) = Nazi Germany.

So if that's our definition of Nazi Germany, then our definition of Israel should be "indiscriminate murder of Palestinians". 

Fair?

[Rozalia]

Fox Fire has a point that Jews do not actually need a state, however Israelis which is the nationalistic construct Zionists formed do. As you can't turn back the clock and they have their state and nationality for a long enough time there isn't really much that can be said on that. The supposed ownership some of them believe they have over all Jewish people and the whole "Jewish national homeland" nonsense should however be challenged as many Jews do thankfully.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Rozalia

[LordRahl2]

No, it's not. If so, the native American genocide and slavery is what defines the USA. Stalins purge defines the USSR and dead Palestinian children is what defines Israel. The holocaust was an action of Nazi Germanies leadership. It was not, not has it ever been, the definition of Nazi Germany.

All killing aside, assuming neither the Nazis or Israelis killed anyone, they would still be the same states.

So we've been through 6 pages now and all you've done is regurgitate the exact thing: Genocide (a word that you brought up, not me) = Nazi Germany.

So if that's our definition of Nazi Germany, then our definition of Israel should be "indiscriminate murder of Palestinians".

Fair?

I would say a portion of US history is rightly defined by the ethnic cleansing / genocide of native americans. Slavery absolutly defines a chunk of it's history and resulted in a major and history shaping war (remaining a part of our cultural fabric today).

 

Genocide is unquestionably the basic element of Nazi Germany and is certainly definitional. No doubt.

 

It is interesting that you are trying to excuse those who pulled the trigger though. Your moral flexibility here is stunning.

[Fox Fire]

I would say a portion of US history is rightly defined by the ethnic cleansing / genocide of native americans. Slavery absolutly defines a chunk of it's history and resulted in a major and history shaping war (remaining a part of our cultural fabric today).

 

Genocide is unquestionably the basic element of Nazi Germany and is certainly definitional. No doubt.

 

It is interesting that you are trying to excuse those who pulled the trigger though. Your moral flexibility here is stunning.

lol @ moral flexibility. Morals are perceptual. I try to perceive both sides.

 

Endlosung, the final solution, wasn't deliberated until 1942. The point I'm trying to make is that it was an act of desperation, not an original idea inherent to the Nazi ideology. That's why they called it the final solution. Equally, I don't think mass murder was an original idea of the Zionist ideology. They are both the result of a self defeating yet persistent idea that can only end in mass killing. 

But with that being said, and going off what you said, ethnic cleansing and indiscriminate murder of their own Arab minority is a defining point for the state of Israel is it not?

Edited March 3, 2016 by Fox Fire

[LordRahl2]

Maybe and we can debate that. However, we are still left with the issue that a State defined by Genocide is not equivalent with one that is not.

[Fox Fire]

Maybe and we can debate that. However, we are still left with the issue that a State defined by Genocide is not equivalent with one that is not.

Well I don't define Nazi Germany by genocide. I also don't define Israel by their atrocities. 

[LordRahl2]

Yet you did. You said the Israel (the State) is the equivalent of Nazi Germany (the State).

[Fox Fire]

Yet you did. You said the Israel (the State) is the equivalent of Nazi Germany (the State).

Yes, and I didn't use the word genocide did I?

I define both states by their ideology. Zionism carries the same basic concept of Nazism. Nationalist, cultural superiority justified by something that doesn't even exist. 

I can say the same about ISIS. I don't define ISIS by their atrocities. I define them by their ideology. In fact, if enough Muslims want a "caliphate", I reasonably believe it's only fair to let them have it. But under ISIS and their ideology? I couldn't support that. 

 

But overall, both the atrocities of the Israelis, Nazis and even ISIS are rooted in their ideology > The nationalist ideology of the state > The state. Would you feel better if I rephrased that as "Zionism is the Jewish equivalent of Nazism"? 

[LordRahl2]

Sure. I would "feel better" because it is at least a valid argument.

 

I don't care much about ideology. States rarely if ever act in a signoficant way in accordance with or according to ideology.

 

We can debate that if you so desire I suppose because it would be hard to prove to me that this or that is rooted in ideology.

[Buorhann]

I'll help Fox Fire out because apparently s/he is not getting it:

 

"I'm sorry.  I did not mean to compare the state of Israel and Nazi Germany.  I meant to compare the ideologies of Zionism and Nazism."

[Fox Fire]

I meant what I said.

[LordRahl2]

Then you have been proven wrong.

[Buorhann]

I meant what I said.

 

Then I ask that you relook over your argument because it's a...  terrible one, and I doubt you can demonstrate it properly without being bias due to your emotions on the matter.

[Caecus]

Nation, from a sociological stand-point, is a collection of cultural values and a bunch of invisible lines. 

[Fox Fire]

Then you have been proven wrong.

I don't see how. I've already explained why genocide is not a requirement for my comparison. 

 

 

Then I ask that you relook over your argument because it's a...  terrible one, and I doubt you can demonstrate it properly without being bias due to your emotions on the matter.

Gaza is a giant !@#$ing internment camp that is indiscriminately bombed every year or two. IDF soldiers do not seem to differentiate between civilian, child or combatant. Their unspoken policy is quite clearly "Palestinians must die". One claim I find to be a joke is that "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east". That's not true, there are several. Westerners don't consider them democracies because of their corruption. Meanwhile, Israel is a state that is literally waging war on it's own people solely because they refuse to even acknowledge their opinions. They prefer to kill them rather than compromise like a real democracy. Yeah, that sounds pretty !@#$ing democratic to me. Not even Putin is that blatant about killing political opponents. Good ol PR democracy. 

The inhumanity displayed by the state of Israel is rivaled by few. Combined with the nationalist superiority complex, I stand by my statement. Simply saying "you're wrong" or "Israel didn't commit a genocide" does not invalidate my statement/comparison form my point of view. I'm not comparing the two based on how many people they've killed, rather, everything else.

[LordRahl2]

I don't see how. I've already explained why genocide is not a requirement for my comparison. 

 

 

Gaza is a giant !@#$ internment camp that is indiscriminately bombed every year or two. IDF soldiers do not seem to differentiate between civilian, child or combatant. Their unspoken policy is quite clearly "Palestinians must die". One claim I find to be a joke is that "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east". That's not true, there are several. Westerners don't consider them democracies because of their corruption. Meanwhile, Israel is a state that is literally waging war on it's own people solely because they refuse to even acknowledge their opinions. They prefer to kill them rather than compromise like a real democracy. Yeah, that sounds pretty !@#$ democratic to me. Not even Putin is that blatant about killing political opponents. Good ol PR democracy. 

The inhumanity displayed by the state of Israel is rivaled by few. Combined with the nationalist superiority complex, I stand by my statement. Simply saying "you're wrong" or "Israel didn't commit a genocide" does not invalidate my statement/comparison form my point of view. I'm not comparing the two based on how many people they've killed, rather, everything else.

 

You are comparing them on how they behave.  Even if we accept all of your opinions above as facts then you are still actually comparing them based on behavior.  And that comparison, as you admit, is invalid.  Your argument is fundamentally flawed.  I am not sure why you persist in holding to your argument when your own words repudiate it.

 

I would love to discuss your opinions as you have laid them out in this post.  But frankly when you start off with godwin, have that shown to be false, then refuse to back off your position there is no reason to debate.

[Lord of Puns]

I don't see how. I've already explained why genocide is not a requirement for my comparison. 

 

 

Gaza is a giant !@#$ internment camp that is indiscriminately bombed every year or two. IDF soldiers do not seem to differentiate between civilian, child or combatant. Their unspoken policy is quite clearly "Palestinians must die". One claim I find to be a joke is that "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east". That's not true, there are several. Westerners don't consider them democracies because of their corruption. Meanwhile, Israel is a state that is literally waging war on it's own people solely because they refuse to even acknowledge their opinions. They prefer to kill them rather than compromise like a real democracy. Yeah, that sounds pretty !@#$ democratic to me. Not even Putin is that blatant about killing political opponents. Good ol PR democracy. 

The inhumanity displayed by the state of Israel is rivaled by few. Combined with the nationalist superiority complex, I stand by my statement. Simply saying "you're wrong" or "Israel didn't commit a genocide" does not invalidate my statement/comparison form my point of view. I'm not comparing the two based on how many people they've killed, rather, everything else.

 

I want you to get off of this site, and go research Israel. Your perceptions of Israel are formed by your own attempt of comprehension of what's going on in the Middle East. Israel has a problem with the treatment of Palestinians. Gaza is not a !@#$ing internment camp. I don't know where or how you're coming to these conclusions because it would appear all that you know about Gaza was the first 15 words of every newspaper headline and nothing more. 

 

Gaza is growing ridiculously fast due to cooperation between Israel and Gaza, there are a number of New Cities that are currently being developed with both Israeli and Palestinian money. While Israel has launched attacks and assaults that have been very clearly defying laws of war, that is NOT THE ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO.

 

I want people, such as yourself who are only versed in what the front page of a newspaper said about Israel and Gaza, to actually put in some research into your !@#$ing claims. If you want to get angry about Israel's actions, GOOD! Look into what Israel and Palestine have done cooperatively as well as independently.

 

Every one of your posts have been nothing but closet anti-semitism and sheer ignorance. 

[Fox Fire]

You are comparing them on how they behave.  Even if we accept all of your opinions above as facts then you are still actually comparing them based on behavior.  And that comparison, as you admit, is invalid.  Your argument is fundamentally flawed. 

 

Just because of the lack of genocide? We already had this discussion just ten times over now. I can't make myself more clear and you're just insisting on using the same rebuttle while expecting me to respond to the same exact piss poor excuse every comment. No.. I'm tired or repeating it.

 

 

I want you to get off of this site, and go research Israel. Your perceptions of Israel are formed by your own attempt of comprehension of what's going on in the Middle East. Israel has a problem with the treatment of Palestinians. Gaza is not a !@#$ internment camp. I don't know where or how you're coming to these conclusions because it would appear all that you know about Gaza was the first 15 words of every newspaper headline and nothing more. 

 

Gaza is growing ridiculously fast due to cooperation between Israel and Gaza, there are a number of New Cities that are currently being developed with both Israeli and Palestinian money. While Israel has launched attacks and assaults that have been very clearly defying laws of war, that is NOT THE ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO.

 

I want people, such as yourself who are only versed in what the front page of a newspaper said about Israel and Gaza, to actually put in some research into your !@#$ claims. If you want to get angry about Israel's actions, GOOD! Look into what Israel and Palestine have done cooperatively as well as independently.

 

Every one of your posts have been nothing but closet anti-semitism and sheer ignorance. 

I want you to make me a sandwich but I suppose that;s not happening. 

Gaza is an internment camp. It's specifically isolated from the entire world by Israel. Not allowed to have it's own economy by Israel. Any infrastructure they build is blown away in a year. It's people are indiscriminately massacred frequently. The people have nowhere to flee. Nowhere to feel safe. All they can do is rebuild every year or two and keep fighting every day for the sake of their existence. It's one giant, very densely populated internment camp. Israel likes to claim that if they stopped fighting, it would be genocide. The same can equally be said for Palestinians. Difference is, it's not Israeli civilians taking the brunt of this disagreement. It's Palestinian civilians. 

Israel is consistently occupying more and more Palestinian land. Gaza is growing because they reproduce faster than the Israeli Jews. It's certainly not because of Israel bombing the shit out of UN schools, the tunnels they depend on for any kind of foreign trade and their one, primary power source for virtually the entire city. That isn't helping at all. Unless you're some delusional Fox News watcher who buys into the idea that Israel, land of democracy that slaughters political opposition, is the symbol of freedom in the middle east. Are you out of your mind?

I've researched this more than you have, I can quite definitely tell. The government of the west bank is not Hamas, although Hamas enjoys quite a bit of support from people in the west bank. Ever wonder why?

War is a keen interest of mine and I make a very, very solid attempt to understand both sides of any conflict. I don't even speak about a conflict unless I've studied it to an extent which I feel I understand both sides. If you prefer, I can own you in a debate about why ISIS exists, what exactly their ideology is, what makes it different from others and why it's Americas fault they exist.

 

I suggest you do some research, buddy. I know my shit. My anti-zionism is not anti-semitism. That's what's called the "Jew Card". Accusing someone of being an anti semite just because they questions the state of Israel. If that makes me anti-semitic in your eyes, then we have nothing to talk about. I'm not having this debate with such a closed mind. 

 

 

 

^Holy shit! Those Jews are anti-semites!! What a bunch of !@#$! 

 

EDIT: Moar pics.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fox Fire

[Fox Fire]

As long as Israel insists that Palestine and Israel are two separately governed areas (essentially states), then they should accept Palestines right to hold a military, it's own economy, own foreign policy, own everything. They simply cannot treat Palestine as their own little internment camp and not expect them to fight for their basic human rights. 

[LordRahl2]

Yes.  I argue that they are different because they do demonstrably different things.  Hence the equivalency that you try to argue is invalid.  I do understand WHY you do not want to argue it anymore.  It would be easier for you to admit it but whatever.  Interesting that you accuse others of having a closed mind.......

 

So, now that we have established that Israel =/= Nazi Germany on to jus ad bellum.  In what ways do you find that Israel is not justified in conducting war against Palestine when it is attacked?

[Fox Fire]

Yes.  I argue that they are different because they do demonstrably different things.  Hence the equivalency that you try to argue is invalid.  I do understand WHY you do not want to argue it anymore.  It would be easier for you to admit it but whatever.  Interesting that you accuse others of having a closed mind.......

 

So, now that we have established that Israel =/= Nazi Germany on to jus ad bellum.  In what ways do you find that Israel is not justified in conducting war against Palestine when it is attacked?

Israel wasn't attacked. Palestinians are defending their own land. 

And of course, they are not the same exact state in the same exact time. Of course they don't do the same exact things. The states, still carry the same concepts of nationalist, cultural superiority. They still imprison and massacre people they consider undesirable. They still believe their people are inherently better. I'm getting insanely sick of repeating that just for you to say "but Jews no holocaust ppls!!!"

Yeah? Neo-Nazis aren't committing a holocaust, but they're still Nazis, no?

[LordRahl2]

Israel wasn't attacked. Palestinians are defending their own land.

 

Erm.  The typical pattern of conflict is thus:

conflict ends

Various groups reconstitute their combat capability (primarily rockets and SRBMs along with infantry forces)

tension builds and generally people start lobbing fire against Israeli population centers

Israel responds (either with air-power or a ground attack)

Some success - generally a drop in capacity to fire rockets

conflict ends

repeat

 

State X being able to conduct offensive operations does not mean that State Y did not attack State X (leading to Y "defending their own land".)  So yeah, In what ways do you find that Israel is not justified in conducting war against Palestine when it is attacked?

 

Or are you going back to the first conflict?  Or what?

 

(We resolved the other thing.  You were wrong.  Its OK to be wrong but you should maybe heed your own advice.)

[Fox Fire]

Erm.  The typical pattern of conflict is thus:

conflict ends

Various groups reconstitute their combat capability (primarily rockets and SRBMs along with infantry forces)

tension builds and generally people start lobbing fire against Israeli population centers

Israel responds (either with air-power or a ground attack)

Some success - generally a drop in capacity to fire rockets

conflict ends

repeat

 

State X being able to conduct offensive operations does not mean that State Y did not attack State X (leading to Y "defending their own land".)  So yeah, In what ways do you find that Israel is not justified in conducting war against Palestine when it is attacked?

 

Or are you going back to the first conflict?  Or what?

 

(We resolved the other thing.  You were wrong.  Its OK to be wrong but you should maybe heed your own advice.)

Declaring the state of Israel against the will of the people living there for far more consecutive generations, disregarding their opinions (as well as every one of their neighbors)......

Sounds more like people defending their homes than Israel being attacked. Once again, if Israel were actually a true democracy, they probably wouldn't have to be killing their own people who have disagreed with the states existence from day one (for over 60 years). 

Fact is, the declaration of Israel was a declaration of war on the more consecutive population. What happens next? War! Who would have imagined that could possibly happen in such a democratic and fair, totally secular state that certainly doesn't alienate it's minorities? 

 

We never resolved the other thing. You yourself said:

 

 

You are comparing them on how they behave.  Even if we accept all of your opinions above as facts then you are still actually comparing them based on behavior.  And that comparison, as you admit, is invalid.  Your argument is fundamentally flawed.  I am not sure why you persist in holding to your argument when your own words repudiate it.

 

I would love to discuss your opinions as you have laid them out in this post.  But frankly when you start off with godwin, have that shown to be false, then refuse to back off your position there is no reason to debate.

 

 

Yeah, let's do that. Let's compare them on behavior. In which case, my argument is more right than ever:

 

 

Gaza is a giant !@#$ internment camp that is indiscriminately bombed every year or two. IDF soldiers do not seem to differentiate between civilian, child or combatant. Their unspoken policy is quite clearly "Palestinians must die". One claim I find to be a joke is that "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east". That's not true, there are several. Westerners don't consider them democracies because of their corruption. Meanwhile, Israel is a state that is literally waging war on it's own people solely because they refuse to even acknowledge their opinions. They prefer to kill them rather than compromise like a real democracy. Yeah, that sounds pretty !@#$ democratic to me. Not even Putin is that blatant about killing political opponents. Good ol PR democracy. 

The inhumanity displayed by the state of Israel is rivaled by few. Combined with the nationalist superiority complex, I stand by my statement. Simply saying "you're wrong" or "Israel didn't commit a genocide" does not invalidate my statement/comparison form my point of view. I'm not comparing the two based on how many people they've killed, rather, everything else.

 

 

I want you to make me a sandwich but I suppose that;s not happening. 

Gaza is an internment camp. It's specifically isolated from the entire world by Israel. Not allowed to have it's own economy by Israel. Any infrastructure they build is blown away in a year. It's people are indiscriminately massacred frequently. The people have nowhere to flee. Nowhere to feel safe. All they can do is rebuild every year or two and keep fighting every day for the sake of their existence. It's one giant, very densely populated internment camp. Israel likes to claim that if they stopped fighting, it would be genocide. The same can equally be said for Palestinians. Difference is, it's not Israeli civilians taking the brunt of this disagreement. It's Palestinian civilians. 

Israel is consistently occupying more and more Palestinian land. Gaza is growing because they reproduce faster than the Israeli Jews. It's certainly not because of Israel bombing the shit out of UN schools, the tunnels they depend on for any kind of foreign trade and their one, primary power source for virtually the entire city. That isn't helping at all. Unless you're some delusional Fox News watcher who buys into the idea that Israel, land of democracy that slaughters political opposition, is the symbol of freedom in the middle east. Are you out of your mind?

I've researched this more than you have, I can quite definitely tell. The government of the west bank is not Hamas, although Hamas enjoys quite a bit of support from people in the west bank. Ever wonder why?

War is a keen interest of mine and I make a very, very solid attempt to understand both sides of any conflict. I don't even speak about a conflict unless I've studied it to an extent which I feel I understand both sides. If you prefer, I can own you in a debate about why ISIS exists, what exactly their ideology is, what makes it different from others and why it's Americas fault they exist.

 

I suggest you do some research, buddy. I know my shit. My anti-zionism is not anti-semitism. That's what's called the "Jew Card". Accusing someone of being an anti semite just because they questions the state of Israel. If that makes me anti-semitic in your eyes, then we have nothing to talk about. I'm not having this debate with such a closed mind. 

 

 

lol @ moral flexibility. Morals are perceptual. I try to perceive both sides.

 

Endlosung, the final solution, wasn't deliberated until 1942. The point I'm trying to make is that it was an act of desperation, not an original idea inherent to the Nazi ideology. That's why they called it the final solution. Equally, I don't think mass murder was an original idea of the Zionist ideology. They are both the result of a self defeating yet persistent idea that can only end in mass killing. 

But with that being said, and going off what you said, ethnic cleansing and indiscriminate murder of their own Arab minority is a defining point for the state of Israel is it not?

 

 

Yes, and I didn't use the word genocide did I?

I define both states by their ideology. Zionism carries the same basic concept of Nazism. Nationalist, cultural superiority justified by something that doesn't even exist. 

I can say the same about ISIS. I don't define ISIS by their atrocities. I define them by their ideology. In fact, if enough Muslims want a "caliphate", I reasonably believe it's only fair to let them have it. But under ISIS and their ideology? I couldn't support that. 

 

But overall, both the atrocities of the Israelis, Nazis and even ISIS are rooted in their ideology > The nationalist ideology of the state > The state. Would you feel better if I rephrased that as "Zionism is the Jewish equivalent of Nazism"? 

 

Identical. Equivalent. But OMG, no genocide can only possibly mean that LordRahls argument is solid! "Israel didn't commit genocide" is literally your entire argument for 6 pages now. It must be the most legit, because whoever can repeat themselves more wins, right?