Ban or Don't Ban Trump?

[The Governor]

You do realise calling people stupid doesn't endear them to see things from your point of view yes?

Viewpoints can be judged by merit. On climate change, for example, conservatives/Republicans are objectively wrong because they're stupid. There are a lot of other issues where they're pretty much objectively wrong, but the point I'm making is Trump and his followers are dumb and it doesn't matter how much of a compelling argument you try to make in their defense, at the end of the day they're still idiots. Edited December 14, 2015 by The Governor

[The Governor]

To me, getting rid of people draining our economy and living here illegally isn't stupid, and neither is refusing to let in tens or even hundreds of thousands of foreigners who are different than us in every single aspect. To me, that's common sense.

Are you under the impression that illegal immigrants can just walk up to the government and ask for food stamps and welfare or something?

 

It's much harder to avoid paying taxes than it is to receive benefits. Every time an undocumented immigrant buys something they pay sales tax, if they have an apartment they contribute to property taxes, many pay payroll taxes along with their employers. But if they're not here legally they don't have access to most of the safety nets. And if they're here legally then they're paying just as much in taxes as the rest of us and completely deserve access to all of the associated benefits. The whole homogeneous society bullshit boils down to "I don't wanna pay for brown people." It isn't an argument.

[Abu Haddad]

Trump is meant to be republican

A republican is meant to be much more to the left than the democrats.

Trump is in the wrong party. I hope the republicans see sense and take him out.

[Solomon]

To me, getting rid of people draining our economy and living here illegally isn't stupid, and neither is refusing to let in tens or even hundreds of thousands of foreigners who are different than us in every single aspect.

Biologically, those foreigners are almost identical to you. What are the significant differences?

[New Scandanavia]

Trump is meant to be republican

A republican is meant to be much more to the left than the democrats.

Trump is in the wrong party. I hope the republicans see sense and take him out.

no democrats are the left party

[New Scandanavia]

i do not like him and i thinks he is an idiot but that is no reason to ban some thing

[Solomon]

Religion?

Language?

Morals?

Ideals?

 

So... pretty much most everything important.

I don't think the USA has official religions or languages. Most people who've thought about it (or studied philosophy!) think morals and ideals are personal concepts.

[Doktor Avalanche]

I don't think the USA has official religions or languages. Most people who've thought about it (or studied philosophy!) think morals and ideals are personal concepts.

Then what right do people have to force their morals and values upon others if they are personal concepts?

That, in a nutshell, is what John Harms is basically conveying about his concern with allowing these immigrants into the country. Many other cultures globally do not share the United States' ideology of a personal conception of our own ethics and morals. Most learned Philosophy Professors would know this. Instead, the majority of the world flows more towards Mob Rule, to be blunt, on what goes as acceptable in society and have little to no defense for the minorities like the United States has achieved. Granted we are not perfect but we have achieved a more open society than most.  This also plays into why there is a conflict between the Western world and Middle Eastern society in general.

[Solomon]

Then what right do people have to force their morals and values upon others if they are personal concepts?

There's no simple answer to that question. What "right" do people have to do anything? What's more relevant is what people believe they can choose to do, and that's shaped by multiple factors including education and access to information.

 

 

That, in a nutshell, is what John Harms is basically conveying about his concern with allowing these immigrants into the country. Many other cultures globally do not share the United States' ideology of a personal conception of our own ethics and morals.

 

Although the USA is sometimes parodied for having a perceived "do the right thing" mentality, the idea that there is a single "US ideology" is a myth.

[Doktor Avalanche]

There's no simple answer to that question. What "right" do people have to do anything? What's more relevant is what people believe they can choose to do, and that's shaped by multiple factors including education and access to information.

 

And this can completely turn into an ethics course full of ideologies from all over the field. LOL no thank you.

 

 

 

Although the USA is sometimes parodied for having a perceived "do the right thing" mentality, the idea that there is a single "US ideology" is a myth.

The one factor which the United States allows is no State enforced practices of faith, which is very foreign to the practice found in Islam which establishes the State to be the enforcer of their practices. This ideology of no religious enforcement from the State is unique to the US ideal. Even precious England enforced Religious law on its citizens well into the middle of the 20th Century.

[Solomon]

And this can completely turn into an ethics course full of ideologies from all over the field. LOL no thank you.

It won't need to as long as nobody confuses rights in law - which come and go at the whim of lawmakers - and ethical/moral rights.

 

 

 

The one factor which the United States allows is no State enforced practices of faith, which is very foreign to the practice found in Islam which establishes the State to be the enforcer of their practices.

Much as most Christians abhor the idea of teaching "creation science" in the classroom, most Moslems do not believe that Sharia Law should be applied. If the US government decided to bar immigrants with views at odds with the US Constitution, that would be one thing, but there is no justification for banning everyone who follows Islam.

[Rozalia]

Much as most Christians abhor the idea of teaching "creation science" in the classroom, most Moslems do not believe that Sharia Law should be applied. If the US government decided to bar immigrants with views at odds with the US Constitution, that would be one thing, but there is no justification for banning everyone who follows Islam.

 

Shouldn't you be using Muslim? Odd for someone who is saying that to use Moslem instead. 

 

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/

 

The above is what Trump and many of his supporters go off, so based on that they do believe a majority of Muslims do want that. Now granted you can attack the source like many, but considering these same politicians/Liberals have in the past cited the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights as legitimate, well, they can't really accuse anyone else of using bogus sources.

[Magicboyd25]

I have a good friend of mine who's family is considering leaving the United States because they are Muslim and have been verbally and sometimes almost physically attacked. The hatred in this country towards Muslim people is atrocious and is against American ideals. Fear mongering left and right over how Muslims are to be rejected from our society has driven so many in this country to say awful things about these people. So say all you want about them trying to "assimilate cultures." Say all you want about how some are radicalized. Say all you want about how different cultures of Muslims have different motives. When it comes down to what I think about what is happening, I stick with the people that I know are good people. I stick with the people whom the great majority of are wonderful and peaceful people. I will fight for the human rights of muslims and I will fight for the preservation of American ideals. I respect if you chose to disagree with me. We are all entitled to our opinions, as is Mr. Trump. However one thing is certain: having the right to say what you want should never justify anyone alienating a group of people.

[Doktor Avalanche]

 

Much as most Christians abhor the idea of teaching "creation science" in the classroom, most Moslems do not believe that Sharia Law should be applied. If the US government decided to bar immigrants with views at odds with the US Constitution, that would be one thing, but there is no justification for banning everyone who follows Islam.

Interesting, considering Muslims that I have witnessed debating Trumps statements argue in favor of Sharia Law being implemented here on US soil.There are already Sharia Courts established in Michigan and these courts have already caused legal conflicts within Dearborn's communities. It is hard for me to accept that Sharia Law is not favored by Muslims in the united States considering every community I know of has implemented a hidden form of it.

 

And no, I am personally not in favor of Trump's statements. I am only pointing out why many in the US are in favor.

[Rozalia]

I have a good friend of mine who's family is considering leaving the United States because they are Muslim and have been verbally and sometimes almost physically attacked. The hatred in this country towards Muslim people is atrocious and is against American ideals. Fear mongering left and right over how Muslims are to be rejected from our society has driven so many in this country to say awful things about these people. So say all you want about them trying to "assimilate cultures." Say all you want about how some are radicalized. Say all you want about how different cultures of Muslims have different motives. When it comes down to what I think about what is happening, I stick with the people that I know are good people. I stick with the people whom the great majority of are wonderful and peaceful people. I will fight for the human rights of muslims and I will fight for the preservation of American ideals. I respect if you chose to disagree with me. We are all entitled to our opinions, as is Mr. Trump. However one thing is certain: having the right to say what you want should never justify anyone alienating a group of people.

 

Islamic political ideology is against the precious ideals you talk of. Additionally people such as yourself focus so much on defense you fail to see bright flashing problems they have. Look at apostasy for example that I talked about not that long ago. How many on your "side" want to fix that? Heck, how many are even willing to talk about it? 

 

Politics is all about alienating people so you need to brush up on that. Some attack the poor. Some attack the rich. Some attack the other "political tribe". Some attack minorities. So on. What makes Muslims so special over the general poor? 

[Magicboyd25]

Islamic political ideology is against the precious ideals you talk of. Additionally people such as yourself focus so much on defense you fail to see bright flashing problems they have. Look at apostasy for example that I talked about not that long ago. How many on your "side" want to fix that? Heck, how many are even willing to talk about it? 

 

Politics is all about alienating people so you need to brush up on that. Some attack the poor. Some attack the rich. Some attack the other "political tribe". Some attack minorities. So on. What makes Muslims so special over the general poor? 

 

Why the heck do you need to attack me for this? I was trying to be quite civil and bring in a personal point to all of this and you go after me. Absolutely pathetic. Also very offensive.

 

Who is this 'they' you mention? Are you talking about Muslims? You think 'they' have problems, but Americans don't as well?

 

Also why are you placing me on a "side." I was speaking of something that has overall meaning, and some personal value as well.

 

Trust me I know all about politics. I have been through this rodeo many times, and I know how the system works. But attacking a group of people, specifically a whole religion, is outright past what the extent of politics should be. It is ridiculous that it should be happening. That's not freedom of religion to bar people of a certain religion from entering. That is not freedom of speech to allow any protests to happen that is for their believed rights. 

 

What I got out of your response and ignorance of the beginning of my comment is that you think it is ok for my friend and his family to receive the abuse they have. You want to know what happened recently? He lost his job, his sister lost her's as well. A week ago he found his car with graffiti all over it. That along with other things which I shall not name. Is this an ok thing to do? Is this ok for us to alienate these people to the extent where they lose their opportunity. Is this ok when his family from the middle east would never be able to visit him through what Trump would have. 

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Thanks to Trump, crazy xenophobes can now publicly spill their guts without fear of repercussion.

[Critters]

Thanks to Trump, crazy xenophobes can now publicly spill their guts without fear of repercussion.

Trump wrote the 1st Amendment?

 

Mind blown.........

[Eric]

Hey...if Trump wants to ban muslims, go ahead. Idc

[Rozalia]

Why the heck do you need to attack me for this? I was trying to be quite civil and bring in a personal point to all of this and you go after me. Absolutely pathetic. Also very offensive.

 

Who is this 'they' you mention? Are you talking about Muslims? You think 'they' have problems, but Americans don't as well?

 

Also why are you placing me on a "side." I was speaking of something that has overall meaning, and some personal value as well.

 

Trust me I know all about politics. I have been through this rodeo many times, and I know how the system works. But attacking a group of people, specifically a whole religion, is outright past what the extent of politics should be. It is ridiculous that it should be happening. That's not freedom of religion to bar people of a certain religion from entering. That is not freedom of speech to allow any protests to happen that is for their believed rights. 

 

What I got out of your response and ignorance of the beginning of my comment is that you think it is ok for my friend and his family to receive the abuse they have. You want to know what happened recently? He lost his job, his sister lost her's as well. A week ago he found his car with graffiti all over it. That along with other things which I shall not name. Is this an ok thing to do? Is this ok for us to alienate these people to the extent where they lose their opportunity. Is this ok when his family from the middle east would never be able to visit him through what Trump would have. 

 

Pretty clear who "they" was considering the placement of it in post, so I think you're trying to give your post a little more punch but it ain't working. I was referring to the religion and it's political and dogmatic views yes, pretty obvious.

 

Case in point, you address everything in my post except my talk of apostasy. Their treatment of apostasy and overall views trample on freedom of religion yet I hear nothing from you there even though I gave you enough of a prompt to do so. That was the point I was making. People such yourselves will play the holier than thou game over issues such as Muslims, but when it comes to confronting fundamental problems shy away, in fact you try to hush it all away with talk of Islamophobia/Racism.

 

So him and his sister lost their jobs due to being Muslims did they? Such a thing called the courts if so, but I doubt that was the reason. It's all anecdotes at the end of the day anyway, I could give you my own to counter yours if you like.

 

Also the "ignorance" buzzword doesn't work on me, try something else. Framing anyone against your views as ignorant is both ignorant and sanctimonious. 

 

Thanks to Trump, crazy xenophobes can now publicly spill their guts without fear of repercussion.

 

The Liberal Tyranny is weakening yes. Trump wins and it dies completely. 

[Peter Quill]

https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/06/23/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/

 

The above is what Trump and many of his supporters go off, so based on that they do believe a majority of Muslims do want that. Now granted you can attack the source like many, but considering these same politicians/Liberals have in the past cited the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights as legitimate, well, they can't really accuse anyone else of using bogus sources.

So you justify using bogus sources by bringing up 'everybody else does it too'?

[Arthur James]

Isn't US is more "free" than other bcos their own one is simply fainted and disappear bcos of their own choice?

Edited December 20, 2015 by Arthur James

[Rozalia]

So you justify using bogus sources by bringing up 'everybody else does it too'?

 

No. Merely said that if they attack it then considering it's the same "Assad must go because he eats babies" crowd who sees SOHR as legitimate they don't really have any leg to stand on as they can't tell the difference.

[Spite]

Interesting, considering Muslims that I have witnessed debating Trumps statements argue in favor of Sharia Law being implemented here on US soil.There are already Sharia Courts established in Michigan and these courts have already caused legal conflicts within Dearborn's communities. It is hard for me to accept that Sharia Law is not favored by Muslims in the united States considering every community I know of has implemented a hidden form of it.

 

And no, I am personally not in favor of Trump's statements. I am only pointing out why many in the US are in favor.

 

To be fair, the media cherry pick who they get to speak in these events. If the debate is about Sharia law and islamism, they go look for a nutter to defend that position rather than one of the millions of moderate western muslims.

[Rozalia]

To be fair, the media cherry pick who they get to speak in these events. If the debate is about Sharia law and islamism, they go look for a nutter to defend that position rather than one of the millions of moderate western muslims.

 

The media who is against Trump, to damage his campaign... is helping him by putting forward only fanatical Muslims? Doesn't make a whole lotta sense that. It'd be like after his Mexican comments they exclusively interviewed Mexican rapists to prove Trump wrong.