Raise the minimum wage?

[SoS]

#1 and #4 Gross Domestic Product, the total value of goods and services. It is the indicator of economic activity, strength, health, growth, etc. You are talking about "increasing" the economy by saying that people will spend more therefore all in the economy will have more business.

 

#2 wal mart, maybe...the majority of their labor are Chinese slaves. Apples and oranges.

 

#3 yes, if you can't afford the cost of business you go out of business...was my point.

[elsuper]

Flaw in logic #3, 

If you own a business that can't withstand paying the minimum wage, then your business should go bankrupt, because you already can't support it.

 

Try telling that to a worker whose employer went out of business. "They didn't deserve you anyway."

[Aisha Greyjoy]

The minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation due to miserly economic policies by the Right(and to a lesser extent, the Left as well).  Asking that the minimum wage buy in 2014 what it could buy in 1960 doesn't seem too socialist or crippling to business to me.

[SoS]

The problem is asshat administrations (dismayed by "yes we can") that don't raise minimum wage for several years. Everything seem to work well with a modest increase every year or two. Now, too much too fast is too much of a shock. Play some aggressive catch up, but not the whole raise at once.

[Alexander]

Definitely agree with the "way too much too fast".

 

Business can't sustain that right now, which would only lead to higher unemployment.

 

Minimum wage is to ensure people aren't getting paid dirt.

 

The current minimum wage is low, I'll give you that, but you'll be playing with fire if you raise it too much because it would spell catastrophe for already struggling businesses.

[Odin]

What you need is just a higher income tax, with bonus on especially rich persons.

Since the difference between poor and rich is so huge in the USA.

Let the state subsidize the wages and finance it from a wealth tax.

Don't let the middle class bled, let the rich pay, they've got far too long, far too much.

And no need now to pay them symphaties, you aren't the rich ones. They don't care about the poor, why should you care.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Wilhelm II

[Alexander]

I like the idea of helping people but who decided what is enough to take from the rich? 

 

It seems horrible but the truth is, they got where they are most likely because they own some sort of business.. that supply jobs.

[Ashland]

Literally nobody is arguing that increasing the minimum wage won't increase cost of living and prices.

 

But it is absolutely false to state that there are any statistics or studies that demonstrate that an increase in the minimum wage would increase cost of living more than (or even the same amount as) it would increase median and/or mean incomes.

Except it's not.

 

Answer me this: Why does Wal-Mart lobby for a higher minimum wage?

[Grillick]

First of all, they don't. Ten years ago, they claimed to publicly, but it has since come to light that they were secretly bankrolling opposition lobbying the whole time.

 

Still, even if it did, this would not prove that an increase in minimum wage would increase cost of living more than it would increase median or mean incomes. All it would show is that Walmart believes it is in a better position to pay a higher minimum wage than its competitors, and is seeking a competitive advantage to increase its market share.

 

Increasing Walmart's market share isn't ideal, but it's better than the present system where the government subsidizes low wages with welfare.

[Ashland]

That's exactly why they do it. It drives smaller businesses out of business, increases market share, and allows them to mark up.

[Grillick]

That's exactly why they do it. It drives smaller businesses out of business, increases market share, and allows them to mark up.

No, that's why they might support a minimum wage increase. But they aren't.

[Ashland]

No, that's why they might support a minimum wage increase. But they aren't.

Walmart denies reports that it's lobbying in favor of higher minimum wage?  Why would they ever den-  Oh, that's right.  Duh.

[Placentica]

Free market all the way.  People should feel obligated to not work any job where the pay is sub-standard.

 

You want to see what a free market looks like?  Go to Wiliston, ND and get a job at McD's or Walmart - you get paid well over $15 an hour since demand outweighs supply.

 

Don't want employers to hire at $8, don't work that job so they have to raise pay in order to fill job openings.

[Ashland]

Free market all the way.  People should feel obligated to not work any job where the pay is sub-standard.

 

You want to see what a free market looks like?  Go to Wiliston, ND and get a job at McD's or Walmart - you get paid well over $15 an hour since demand outweighs supply.

 

Don't want employers to hire at $8, don't work that job so they have to raise pay in order to fill job openings.

I generally agree, but low wage-low skill jobs are important.  They give people opportunities to BUILD skills.  When you raise minimum wage, you take that opportunity away.  Particularly from poorer neighborhoods.

[Placentica]

I think that all jobs should pay a decent wage and we all know McD's is making a ton of low-wage employees - I just don't think gov. should be involved in anything business related.

 

The problem is people *do* think $8/hr is an okay wage, otherwise they wouldn't work the job.  If it's the only job they can find it's just a case of supply meeting demand.

 

When you raise worker wages all you do is create inflation.  We have a near-0 inflation situation (last I checked a few months ago, maybe that's changed) but yet workers still expect routine raises in pay - which in the past was just to keep up with inflation, but now is creating it to a small extent.

[Toxxikation]

Placentica,

 

Minimum wage hasn't risen since 2009. US Inflation rate has risen every month since December. Also worthy of note: The month of our last minimum wage increase: Inflation was -2.1%, average for 2009 was -0.34%. Based on these numbers it looks like raising wages didn't increase inflation, but rather decreased it. The minimum wage increase in 2007 showed the lowest July inflation rate since 2003. 2008 had the market crash, which attributed largely to the increased inflation rate (highest July, even with an increase in wages, since the 80's). No doubt exists in my mind that some, if not most, of the -2.1% in July 2009 was from the market rebounding, but you can't deny that these numbers are intriguing.

 

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

 

I'll go back through this when I have more time to see if there's actually an increase or decrease (or if they're not connected) between increases and wages and the inflation rate. It'll be interesting to see the outcome.

[Ashland]

Placentica,

 

Minimum wage hasn't risen since 2009. US Inflation rate has risen every month since December. Also worthy of note: The month of our last minimum wage increase: Inflation was -2.1%, average for 2009 was -0.34%. Based on these numbers it looks like raising wages didn't increase inflation, but rather decreased it. The minimum wage increase in 2007 showed the lowest July inflation rate since 2003. 2008 had the market crash, which attributed largely to the increased inflation rate (highest July, even with an increase in wages, since the 80's). No doubt exists in my mind that some, if not most, of the -2.1% in July 2009 was from the market rebounding, but you can't deny that these numbers are intriguing.

 

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

 

I'll go back through this when I have more time to see if there's actually an increase or decrease (or if they're not connected) between increases and wages and the inflation rate. It'll be interesting to see the outcome.

Yes, good, so we're decreasing it via attrition.  Good.  We should KEEP doing that.  If it keeps happening, it will eventually be abolished.  Yippee!

 

Placentica:

 

You know who earns eight dollars an hour?  Teenagers with no skills.  They're worth less than minimum wage.  Period.  When I was a teenager, my time was worth way less than minimum wage.  I was a shitty employee.  I'd never even worked before.  I wasn't good at my job.  I didn't care.  I didn't take it seriously.

 

Teenagers are stupid and horrible employees with no skills.  But once they start working, they get skills.  I'm mostly through college now and my time is worth considerably more.  I would not touch a minimum wage job.  I work for 22 dollars an hour now.  But when I was a teenager?  I was definitely worth less than 8 bucks.  Maybe five dollars an hour.

Edited October 31, 2014 by terminus467

[Grillick]

Actually, there are about 3.3 million workers in the United States whose hourly wage is less than or equal to the federal minimum wage, and 1.6 million of them are over 25. Two-thirds of those over 25 who earn less than or equal to the minimum wage are women, to boot.

 

Your misguided understanding of what it means to be a minimum wage worker has no basis in reality, and should not be considered a valid reason for opposing an increase in the minimum wage.

 

[source]

[WISD0MTREE]

I think that all jobs should pay a decent wage and we all know McD's is making a ton of low-wage employees - I just don't think gov. should be involved in anything business related.

 

The problem is people *do* think $8/hr is an okay wage, otherwise they wouldn't work the job.  If it's the only job they can find it's just a case of supply meeting demand.

 

When you raise worker wages all you do is create inflation.  We have a near-0 inflation situation (last I checked a few months ago, maybe that's changed) but yet workers still expect routine raises in pay - which in the past was just to keep up with inflation, but now is creating it to a small extent.

You are right for basically all the wrong reasons... 

 

Freddy Mac and Fannie May. Government involvement. Worked great, right? Nope. 

[Solomon]

Teenagers are stupid and horrible employees with no skills.  But once they start working, they get skills.  I'm mostly through college now and my time is worth considerably more.  I would not touch a minimum wage job.  I work for 22 dollars an hour now.  But when I was a teenager?  I was definitely worth less than 8 bucks.  Maybe five dollars an hour.

How do you - and I mean you personally - measure your financial value?

[Bored now Leafing]

Inflation in the present central banking economy is caused by government spending.

The 3 ways that governments gain the use of resources that it did not produce.

 

Taxes

All by it's self this one is really limiting to government power because when you tax people they feel it and will most of the time reduce how many resources they produce as this goes higher the thought goes "if it is all going to be taken (or a significant amount) why should i bother making more then what i need to get by?".

 

Borrow

Combined with Taxes this one allows government to use more resources with less pull back that normally comes with over taxing often allowing things like war to go far longer then they should but even this has the limit of thous who are willing to lend, of course when the bill comes due then Taxes go way up or the government gun is turned on the lender, the result of both is loss in economic power by the people at large or by thous willing to lend in hopes of a return, the effect of course being that it becomes harder to get more out of the people or it becomes harder to get a loan next time depending on who the gun of government is turned on. (if there is a debt it means someone has not gotten paid for there contribution)

 

Printing

This one combined with the first two allows for a time of almost unlimited government power but with a much larger penalty when that time ends.

The ability of a central banking institution to control the supply of money allows government to place the burden of all it's failures onto the backs of the general public in the form of inflation.

 

Government does not need to employ heavy taxes in order to gain control of a significant portion of the resources within the nation and suffer the pull back that it always results in, it can borrow without the need to turn the government gun on the lender, all it has to do is inflate the money supply.

If a person without the government ability to counterfeit money wants to corner the market on any particular thing they will have a very hard time doing it no matter how much money they started out with because as supply and demand dictate the more of anything that is taken out of supply the higher the price becomes.

But when government and the central bank counterfeiting does the same thing they can just print more money as the price goes higher but without the element that the person not backed by government counterfeiting got there money by first supplying something that somebody wanted.

The effect overtime of government taking resources with printed money instead of earned money (money made by first providing a product or service that people want) is inflation.

 

Now if this is all slightly off center from the topic then my apologies but i felt the need to share this and for all you who think you can decided when someone else is being exploited this video is for you.

[SoS]

I'm not sure how taxes cause inflation, but ok.

 

Inflation of money supply is a problem because it goes to the rich and raises prices where the poor especially feel it.

[elsuper]

I'm not sure how taxes cause inflation, but ok.

 

Inflation of money supply is a problem because it goes to the rich and raises prices where the poor especially feel it.

 

I don't think he was saying that taxes cause inflation, he was saying its a method of controlling resources government did not produce. But I agree with your statement insofar as this is how it has worked in practice. There's no reason all that fresh-printed money couldn't go into my bank account, except that Janet Yellen ignored my cut-and-pasted letters smeared with blood.

 

Edit: a word for clarity

Edited November 6, 2014 by elsuper

[Bored now Leafing]

elsuper is correct i was not suggesting taxes cause inflation pardon me for my lack of clarity they generally cause deflation IF the government spends less then what is taken in taxes of course that would mean that debts are being paid off and further printing of money is slowing or stopping entirely.

 

First just to point this out rich is a vague term that very often ends up encompassing even people who got there wealth properly (making product or service people want/need) and without government power yes these people are real, thus i dislike things that group a wide range of people because the result is always that innocent folks get caught up in it and it just turns into demonetization sorta like how in the Marxist mind set of having workers and capitalists if you actually look at how things work in real life many workers become capitalists (to use the Marxist terminology) for no other reason then they saved up there own money and used it to start a business and hired some people.

 

A fair bit of the inflation America is seeing now is an effect of the wars that never seem to end, at both the start (bomb makers) and the stop (bomb victims) wealth is lost but as government needs thous bombs to continue it will continue to tax, borrow, and print, so that more bombs will be made more people will die and more wealth is lost.

 

Wealth in the above context is both the stuff that makes life better and people, i consider people to have the ability to be the greatest form of wealth that there is but only if they are not wrecked mentally or physically.

 

Welfare while it is even at it's worst less inflationary then war is still inflationary because people who are not creating new wealth are given money and sometimes they create a little bit of wealth that is not recorded in the economic numbers but it is often far lower then the normal rate because welfare creates an underclass of people, some who can't, some who won't, and some who lost or never learned how to work of course this underclass then ends up needing that welfare because that is how they end up growing up, some of the worst poverty in the world is a result of the culture of hard work not being discovered or being discouraged (why work when they take it all/i do not need to work they will do it for me) funny thing about welfare is it isn't just the poor that get it and it isn't just the poor that get hurt by it, seems to be relegated to the very politically connected (thous who get rich using political favors) and the very poor (thous who the politician buy the vote of) as a result thous in the middle, the people who work the hardest and cheat the least get crushed by the infinite want that is normally suppressed when the person has to work to get there own wants filled, welfare combined with the power of central banking turns this engine of innovation (the unlimited want of humanity) into a weapon with the power to smash civilization.

 

To say something directly about the topic of this thread do i will now.

 

Minimum wage is a price cap that this is not seen or is actively over looked i am not sure as far as this thread goes, i had thought that it was already understood far and wide that price controls and caps do not work and only increase poverty.

 

The effect of minimum wage is only thus.

When the wealth of a nation is growing this will only keep the less favored groups of people out of jobs and slows or even reverses cultural integration.

In times of declining wealth it will starve a nation of what it needs most that is of course new untrained/unskilled workers who will make that nations wealth tomorrow.

And of course a bump in inflation depending on how high the minimum.

[ColoringNick]

I see all these college students complaining about not making enough money.

 

It's obviously so easy to get money.  There are tons of jobs out there, but people don't want to start at the bottom and work their way up.

 

Now if you get one of these jobs that pay 7.25 an hour.  Which is real good due to the fact you are unskilled, either doing a task a monkey should do, but can't since you are working with food and need you to speak some english.

 

Now assuming you are going to a public University, and excluding all other expenses such as food, housing, gas, etc.  We will just look at tuition.  We will assume it's 4k a semester.

 

So if you work for 7.25 an hour you will have to work 552 hours to get 4k untaxed.  That is working for 13 weeks, 5 days, 14 hours, and 24 minutes at 40 hours a week.

 

This sounds way to reasonable, and like these college students are taking advantages of the system.