Raise the minimum wage?

[Grillick]

Minimum wage is an attempt to pay employees equally. Maybe not all, but most. 

Not even remotely.

 

1% of the workforce works for minimum wage.

 

All a minimum wage is intended to do is provide a floor the employers must provide to their workers, so that the cost of supporting those in poverty isn't shifted unduly onto the state.

[Morgan]

Not even remotely.

 

1% of the workforce works for minimum wage.

 

All a minimum wage is intended to do is provide a floor the employers must provide to their workers, so that the cost of supporting those in poverty isn't shifted unduly onto the state.

Perhaps. But what percentage of part time workers are paid minimum wage and what percentage of all employees in the United States are part time? 

[Grillick]

Perhaps. But what percentage of part time workers are paid minimum wage and what percentage of all employees in the United States are part time? 

64% of minimum-wage-or-below workers are part-time workers, and 26.7% of workers are part-time workers.

 

Doing the math, that means a part-time worker as about twice as likely to be paid at or below minimum wage than a full-time worker.

[Morgan]

64% of minimum-wage-or-below workers are part-time workers, and 26.7% of workers are part-time workers.

 

Doing the math, that means a part-time worker as about twice as likely to be paid at or below minimum wage than a full-time worker.

Interesting statistic. I was just curious. I'll continue personal research on the topic. 

[WISD0MTREE]

• Make them legal, no citizen wants to pick vegetables for $7/hour.
• This is 1% of the labor market.

But they aren't citizens. They don't pay taxes. Yet, they still use public infrastructure. 

Illegal labor market will increase unemployment. 

[Grillick]

But they aren't citizens. They don't pay taxes. Yet, they still use public infrastructure.

Illegal labor market will increase unemployment.

Get your facts straight. Undocumented immigrants pay taxes. They pay income taxes (usually under someone else's SSN). They pay excise taxes on the gas for their cars. They pay sales taxes (as a higher percentage of their incomes because sales taxes are regressive).

 

Seriously, man, it's possible to be conservative without being !@#$ing stupid.

[Greatnate]

But they aren't citizens. They don't pay taxes. Yet, they still use public infrastructure. 

Illegal labor market will increase unemployment. 

 

Even drug dealers pay taxes, the IRS is scarier than the INS.

[Mikhail Gorbachev]

Hey, I'm relevant! I'm in Seattle, which is the one place that has voted for a 15$ minimum wage, but we are adopting that in increments. While we ABSOLUTELY need a higher minimum wage, throwing our minimum wage up to $15 right now would be economic suicide, so we have to do this slowly.

[SoS]

Why only $15? Why not bring minimum wage to a median income level? Everyone would be at least middle class.

 

Supply and demand for labor and goods would magically conform to this price fixing. Unskilled labor will suddenly be able to exchange their labor for more than the market has determined it's worth.

 

Skilled labor has been determined to be 48% more valuable than unskilled labor. That standard can be expected to remain regardless of how much minimum wage is increased. Otherwise, why would anyone develop their skills to take a job with greater Demands than fast food? So, increasing minimum wage will affect all wages, not just 1%. And that will not change realized demand. It won't change anything in the demand curve.

[Morgan]

Why only $15? Why not bring minimum wage to a median income level? Everyone would be at least middle class.

 

Supply and demand for labor and goods would magically conform to this price fixing. Unskilled labor will suddenly be able to exchange their labor for more than the market has determined it's worth.

 

Skilled labor has been determined to be 48% more valuable than unskilled labor. That standard can be expected to remain regardless of how much minimum wage is increased. Otherwise, why would anyone develop their skills to take a job with greater Demands than fast food? So, increasing minimum wage will affect all wages, not just 1%. And that will not change realized demand. It won't change anything in the demand curve.

Where the f#%* would employers get all the money to pay everybody that much? That's ridiculous and unfathomable to even think that every single employee was paid at a minimum of $15 per hour or higher. 

[Aisha Greyjoy]

Well, if mcdonalds workers made 10.10 an hour, they could afford to buy more big macs.  That would improve profits for mcdonalds, even if the dollar & more menu became the 1.29 and more menu.

 

Certain labor-intensive fields would be more impacted then fields which rely on skilled labor.

 

But if my tax dollars have to support the employees of your cheap ass corporation via welfare, that's corporate welfare and we should end it, and the minimum wage is one way to do so.  Especially in an era of super high profitability for American corporations(if there is such a thing as an American corporation).  I might be more sympathetic to the business side if they weren't making more money then ever and doing nothing with it.

[Dietrich]

Where the f#%* would employers get all the money to pay everybody that much? That's ridiculous and unfathomable to even think that every single employee was paid at a minimum of $15 per hour or higher. 

 

The first two paragraphs of SoS's posts were clearly satire.

[SoS]

If we increase minimum wage, welfare payments and subsequently taxes would need to be raised as those not working would be paying more (even if it's only $0.29 on the dollar more).

 

I agree on the common goal of improving the living conditions of minimum wage workers. But wages aren't the angle to approach. Any solution would need to mind the rules of economics.

[Solomon]

But wages aren't the angle to approach.

Which angle would you approach?

[Grillick]

If we increase minimum wage, welfare payments and subsequently taxes would need to be raised as those not working would be paying more (even if it's only $0.29 on the dollar more).

BS.

 

Welfare payments per person might need to be increased, but total welfare costs (and therefore taxes) would go down because we wouldn't have any full-time workers who are on welfare anymore. And the increase in unemployment (which is actually just a decrease in the rate at which unemployment decreases) would be 1/20th the number of people whose real wages improve.

 

Increasing minimum wage forces businesses to cover the cost of keeping their employees out of poverty, rather than shifting that burden to taxpayers. For too long we have been sacrificing efficient business practices in the name of low prices, and we don't have the political will to pay the taxes that such policies require. Since paying sufficient taxes to maintain welfare at a level that minimizes poverty is politically infeasible, forcing businesses to pay that welfare through wage payments is the best solution.

[WISD0MTREE]

Get your facts straight. Undocumented immigrants pay taxes. They pay income taxes (usually under someone else's SSN). They pay excise taxes on the gas for their cars. They pay sales taxes (as a higher percentage of their incomes because sales taxes are regressive).

 

Seriously, man, it's possible to be conservative without being !@#$ stupid.

No, they don't pay income tax. The IRS has no record of them (they are undocumented). They don't have to pay, so they don't. 

How do they pay excess tax on their car gas? They go to the store just like we do. 

Yes, they do pay sales tax. 

 

Even drug dealers pay taxes, the IRS is scarier than the INS.

Only for laundered money. 

[Solomon]

How do they pay excess tax on their car gas? They go to the store just like we do. 

"Excise" not "excess".

[WISD0MTREE]

"Excise" not "excess".

Now I feel like a retard. 

[Grillick]

No, they don't pay income tax. The IRS has no record of them (they are undocumented). They don't have to pay, so they don't. 

How do they pay excess tax on their car gas? They go to the store just like we do. 

Yes, they do pay sales tax. 

 

Only for laundered money. 

You're talking out your behind.

 

Here's a CNN blurb on immigration myths. Here's an article from USA Today about undocumented taxpayers. Here's a report from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. Here's an article from Forbes complaining that the President's recent immigration policy change won't increase revenue because immigrants already pay the taxes that legalizing their status might make collectible. Here's an article from Business Insider about how undocumented immigrants pay taxes.

 

There are many ways that an undocumented immigrant can pay income taxes. First, they could apply for an ITIN, which any person can apply for so they can file taxes without using a Social Security Number (this method is admittedly rare). Second, they could use a Social Security Number that doesn't belong to them (resulting in their withholdings being credited by the IRS to a different taxpayer). This second method is very common, because most employers want to at least maintain the appearance of following the law, and will insist that their employees provide them with a SSN in order to begin work, even though they know most of them will have to give them a false one in order to do so.

 

I never said immigrants pay excess tax for gasoline. I said they pay excise taxes.

 

And finally, drug dealers do pay taxes on their income (or else they expose themselves to prosecution for tax evasion), but they can't deduct their expenses as a business deduction.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Grillick

[WISD0MTREE]

-snip-

And here is an article from Soviet Russia saying that communism works, an article from North Korea saying that Kim invented the hamburger, and an article from Nazi Germany saying that the Jews did it. Oh, here is a good one. Alex Jones says that the NWO is here to rape your children and wives, kill you, and enslave the rest of humanity. 

 

All definitely true. 

[Grillick]

And here is an article from Soviet Russia saying that communism works, an article from North Korea saying that Kim invented the hamburger, and an article from !@#$ Germany saying that the Jews did it. Oh, here is a good one. Alex Jones says that the NWO is here to rape your children and wives, kill you, and enslave the rest of humanity.

 

All definitely true.

...

 

...

 

...

 

You have GOT to be kidding...

 

You know, there was a time when I thought you were at least rational, albeit wrongheaded. But that comparison is the single most ridiculous thing I've seen in this forum. Drew Pickles included.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Grillick

[WISD0MTREE]

You know, there was a time when I thought you were at least rational, albeit wrongheaded. But that comparison is the single most ridiculous thing I've seen in this forum. Drew Pickles included.

Good for you. Now, if you are done posting about Obama inventing the hamburger, then please post links to neutral sites. Or at least a site that says something different than their party shit. 

[Grillick]

Lol do me a favor. Show me ONE neutral source that disagrees with me. I'd love to know what you consider neutral.

[WISD0MTREE]

Lol do me a favor. Show me ONE neutral source that disagrees with me. I'd love to know what you consider neutral.

You are the one who tried to make a point with shitty sites. You find a neutral site that agrees with you. 

!@#$

[SoS]

Which angle would you approach?

The real cause of poverty isn't the wages of the bottom 1% it's the wages of the top 1% and the middle 50%. 40% of wealth is in the hands of 1% as "savings". Imagine on a personal level that you saved 40% of your income and must subsist on 60%. Aggregate demand is equal to aggregate supply. 40% it taken from the real demand of everyone. More of that money does need to go where it will pay for more consumer's latent demand, but minimum wage is the single worst place to inject that money. They'll just feed that money back to the 1% and prices will rise without affecting a broader improvement. More of the same. Inject that money somewhere between the second and third quintile and the whole economy will get a boost in construction, durable goods, luxury goods, etc. Floor wages will increase as a result of increased demand.

 

@Grillick, people working full time/min wage don't qualify for welfare. People that don't work take far more of our tax money than this 1%. This 1% is just an ineffective, potentially catastrophic target for rapid change.