Raise the minimum wage?

[Adama]

There have been recent protest for a $15 dollar minimum wage by fast food workers, do you think they deserve it? Do you think they deserve more? What is your opinion of minimum wage?

[Despartainian]

I think they deserve enough to get them over the poverty line and help them survive, sure, but $15 an hour is ludicrous. I know skilled laborers who barely make that much.

 

I also remember the last time the minimum wage was raised. Things got really tough there for a while for those of us who didn't make minimum wage and therefore didn't get a boost to our income because of it.

[Sailor Jerry]

The problem with raising the minimum wage to any level......within a year, that level will become the new poverty level. Also, once the minimum wage goes up, companies/businesses will want to maintain the same margin of profit which means......to offset their new payroll increase, they will increase the price of their products. What does this mean to the middle class......their money will be worth less. If someone makes $40k/year now and say $100/week on groceries, or $5200/ year thats what about 13% of their annual income. Now when the prices go up, say your new grocery bill is now $125/week, or $6500/year, thats now just over 16% of their annual budget. Might not seem like much, but that is only area of ones expenses. If all the other areas of their budget goes up by 3-5% minimum, transportation, education, insurances, etc. Starts cutting into what that person might have been putting toward savings/retirement which means what......people will have to work longer before they can retire. So in my mind, the poverty level will rise with the new minimum wage which means the middle class will shrink. The new minimum wage might help those folks for about a year or so.....but once prices start to go up, they'll just be screaming for another increase.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Coach

[Grillick]

Every dollar a business spends on wages in the United States is a dollar of revenue for another business. In a consumption economy like ours, higher wages are good for long-term growth rates. The increase in long-term economic growth would outpace the increase to inflation caused by an increase in the minimum wage (which, necessarily, would increase average wages nationally).

 

As it stands now, worker productivity has doubled in the last thirty years, but real income has remained flat. Business profit margins and executive salaries have consumed the entire increase in productivity over the last thirty years. In 2014, a single parent earning minimum wage and working 40 hours a week without any time off lives in poverty. How can we justify that as a society?

 

Minimum wages should be pegged to the poverty line, which is pegged to the consumer price index. No single parent who is willing and able to work full-time should be in poverty. It's unacceptable.

 

And before you say that increasing the minimum wage will increase the long-term unemployment rate, that isn't a problem for a consumption economy with an adequate social safety net. No person who is willing to work full-time (whether or not they can find a job) should be forced to live in poverty, and it is the obligation of our society to ensure that they don't have to. If that means those of us fortunate to have high-paying jobs or successful businesses have to pay a bit more in taxes to that others can eat and have shelter, so be it. It's a small price to pay for the stability and economic growth that comes from an adequate welfare system.

[Sailor Jerry]

So what do you think will happen to the poverty level if the minimum wage goes up to $15/hour? Do you think the poverty level will remain where it is and all these people will be lifted out of poverty? Screw it....lets just make minimum wage $20/hour.......maybe even where I am at $30/hour! It will happen.....whereever the minimum wage lands, that will be the new poverty level. I can't speak for everone else but I enjoy the fact that I'm a fairly solid middle class (I also have a small retirement from the Navy). I've worked long and hard to get where I am today and I'll be damned if I'll get dragged down because folks who are not wanting to work to get theirs are going to whine and cry and say "oh it's so not fair....I do nothing but I want everything". I know there are some folks who through no real fault of their own end up in a tight spot for a while and I understand that, but where I currently live, there are a ton of meth-heads who if they are able to land a jod, it will definitely be a minimum wage one. These are the folks who piss me off and are the ones crying. Minimum wagd jobs are not designed to worked at long term, they are designed for folks to learn some skills and move on, or to use temporarily until they can get back on their feet.

[WISD0MTREE]

Basically, the poverty level will most likely follow minimum wage. However, MW should scale with inflation.

[Adama]

Anyone working 40 hours a week should not be in poverty.

 

Minimum wage is a means up keeping up with inflation that happens regardless of if minimum wage is raised or not. Inflation happens, and as it does minimum wage goes up to compensate and to keep ahead of the poverty line. Or, it's supposed to.

 

 

Minimum wage has been stagnant the past 40 years even as productivity and inflation (not shown) has continued to grow. Inflation will happen with a rise in the minimum wage, but it won't be as dramatic as people think because the economy is in a continual state of growth and change. The poverty line will also rise, but it is rising now, and people are just falling into it rather than staying ahead of it because incomes are not keeping up.

 

Not only that, but if you give people more money to spend, they will spend it, increasing the circulation of the economy and thus creating jobs, this is economics 101, consumers drive the economy engine forward making everyone at the top richer as value and production increase. However, if no one is spending anything no one will get richer, because no money will be circulating.

 

Also, most people who work 40-60 hour weeks for minimum wage, sometimes with two jobs are not lazy, they are stuck. How are they supposed to escape? Pay for an education with their minimum wage while supporting a family? Or how about starting a business, oh wait, that takes money, or specialized expertise that most people lack. How about apply for a better job? Oh wait, you are working minimum wage for the last ten years, must mean you're a meth addict. 

[Sailor Jerry]

We seem to be going around in circles here. If anyone who is under the age of 34 and is in fairly healthy shape, there is always a way out.....it's called the military. Now before some of you go off and start in with the......"I'd never work for our government and fight in their needless wars" crap.....you're just biting your nose off to spite your face and makes no sence. If folks thought that they were trapped in a dead end job with no way out......put the pride aside and do what you must in order to get ahead. If an opportunty is there for people to improve themselves and don'ttake it because of some pride crap, well then, you'll get no sympathy from me. Now, to those that are over 34 years old you may ask, good question. Most folks start working at around 16, so if you worked for 18 years......all of them for minimum wage and tried to start a family while doing that.....well, thats just dumb as well. So now, lets assume that you had some skills or a good job for awhile and got downsized and now you have to work any job you can get.....thats when the mi imum wage jobs come in.....to be used as a temporary solution until you can get back on your feet. There always seems to be excuses for not wanting to change how peoples lives go......"Oh no, I'm trapped with no way out, poor me, poor me......now give me more money for doing nothing more than being a high school drop out and flippin burgers, I won't do more, I just want more".

Edited September 5, 2014 by Coach

[Jerry LeRow]

The problem with raising the minimum wage to any level......within a year, that level will become the new poverty level. Also, once the minimum wage goes up, companies/businesses will want to maintain the same margin of profit which means......to offset their new payroll increase, they will increase the price of their products. What does this mean to the middle class......their money will be worth less. If someone makes $40k/year now and say $100/week on groceries, or $5200/ year thats what about 13% of their annual income. Now when the prices go up, say your new grocery bill is now $125/week, or $6500/year, thats now just over 16% of their annual budget. Might not seem like much, but that is only area of ones expenses. If all the other areas of their budget goes up by 3-5% minimum, transportation, education, insurances, etc. Starts cutting into what that person might have been putting toward savings/retirement which means what......people will have to work longer before they can retire. So in my mind, the poverty level will rise with the new minimum wage which means the middle class will shrink. The new minimum wage might help those folks for about a year or so.....but once prices start to go up, they'll just be screaming for another increase.

What you ignore is that, generally viewed, the people now can buy more. So on the one side, the money flows out to the employees, on the other side back into the company via product sales. That again means the businesses will sell more products and can expand, as the people buy more because of the additional income. Also keep in mind there's a "learning curve", the additional units the businesses will produce can be installed easier, the employees already know how to handle the machines, the products etc and overall both businesses as well as the people will be better off. Sure, inflation will take place and money be devaluated, but surely not that fast.

 

We seem to be going around in circles here. If anyone who is under the age of 34 and is in fairly healthy shape, there is always a way out.....it's called the military. Now before some of you go off and start in with the......"I'd never work for our government and fight in their needless wars" crap.....you're just biting your nose off to spite your face and makes no sence. If folks thought that they were trapped in a dead end job with no way out......put the pride aside and do what you must in order to get ahead. If an opportunty is there for people to improve themselves and don'ttake it because of some pride crap, well then, you'll get no sympathy from me. Now, to those that are over 34 years old you may ask, good question. Most folks start working at around 16, so if you worked for 18 years......all of them for minimum wage and tried to start a family while doing that.....well, thats just dumb as well. So now, lets assume that you had some skills or a good job for awhile and got downsized and now you have to work any job you can get.....thats when the mi imum wage jobs come in.....to be used as a temporary solution until you can get back on your feet. There always seems to be excuses for not wanting to change how peoples lives go......"Oh no, I'm trapped with no way out, poor me, poor me......now give me more money for doing nothing more than being a high school drop out and flippin burgers, I won't do more, I just want more".

Not all military staff members have to be at the frontline, there are internal, more interesting jobs, especially in large armies like the american one, just as a side note. 

 

If someone chooses to drop out of school and he wants a low-skill job, allow him that. Guess what, our society is built upon the working man, and if you demand university diplomas for every job you're just inflating higher education, and just end up with lots of underqualified students trapped in their college debt and ending up as taxi drivers. That doesn't help society, especially if on the other side high-school dropouts become billionaires. 

 

After all, a working man should always be allowed to live a life in dignity. Sure, a high-school dropout at a burger bar will live in a small house, will have to tighten his belt, whereas a lawyer or doctor will have a more luxurious life. But like now, that the low-skilled workers are doomed to live in poverty, that must not happen.

[Sailor Jerry]

Nobody has ever said anything about requiring college diplomas. Hell I've only ever taken 3 college level classes. I started off making biscuits at a McDonalds when I was 15 back in the mid-80's.......made $3.35/hour. Did I ever once think that was what I was going to do with the rest of my life....hell no. I decided to make a change to better myself. I joined the navy, went through the Electronic Technicians training and did 20 years. Now I get a monthly pension from Uncle Sam, free medical for life for myself and my wife and my kids ( I think until they're 25 or something if I can prove they are in school) and the Post 9/11 GI Bill. Now I'm retired from the navy, working for a large international company at a power plant as a plant technician, just had a house built last year and have 2 newer cars. So yes, it can be done, I'm prove it can be done. Yes sacrifices were made, living the military lifestyle, me doing six 6-month deployments plus countless other underways ment I was gone and away from my family alot. I'm just of people saying "give me, give me" instead of "Hey, does anyone out there in big wide world have any ideas on how I can ahead". This newer/younger generation thinks they deserve instant gratification, I mean why work for anything when if they whine enough, stuff just gets haned to them. Whats that saying....."give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime", it doesn't go "give a man a fish and feed him for a day, keep giving that man all your fish and he won't learn shit"!

[Grillick]

Coach, I respect and admire the service you did for this country, and the excellent life you've been able to build for yourself.

 

Still, your attitude is emblematic of a lot of what is wrong with American society today. You didn't get where you are by hard work alone. You got where you are by hard work combined with a great deal of luck. First, you were fortunate to be born white. Second, you were fortunate to be accepted into one of the best training programs in the electronics field available at the time. Third, you were fortunate to either: 1) not be required to serve active duty in a combat zone during any of the several naval combat actions in which we were engaged during your career; or 2) to have escaped those combat zones with your life, limbs, and sanity intact. Fourth, you were fortunate to end your career in the army during a time when there were lots of available civilian jobs for veterans and other types of workers. Fifth, you were fortunate to have begun your career at an organization that has weathered the economic ups and downs without being forced to lay you off. Sixth, you are fortunate that various "shrink the size of government" organizations haven't managed to convince Congress that military pensions are a huge burden that doesn't need to be maintained.

 

There are countless other examples of fortune smiling upon you that you attribute to your own strength of character.

 

The fact of the matter is, hard work alone is not enough to move from poverty to wealth (or even to a modest lifestyle). Anecdotal evidence is the least reliable kind, even moreso when the source of that evidence is your own life.

 

Nobody is saying that people who would abuse the welfare system don't exist. All we are saying is that the value of having an effective welfare system that protects people from the harshest effects of poverty vastly outweighs the burden of supporting a small fraction of a percent of people who "think they deserve instant gratification."

 

Most people want to work and contribute to society. Why not create a system that lets them do that without also having to worry about where the next meal, rent payment, or doctor's bill payment will come from?

[Shellhound]

Eh, nvm.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Shellhound

[Fox Fire]

For America, $10 seems fair.

[Aisha Greyjoy]

15 is too much, too fast.

 

I'd say a phased increase, like .50c a year, with a $12 target or so in 7 years, and after that, peg it to the CPI.

 

 

 

 

For America, $10 seems fair.

 

I made $10 an hour when I was 16, decades ago.  We're just used to America being a poor country now.  All our money goes to the top and we've just accepted that people should be poor.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Aisha Greyjoy

[WISD0MTREE]

I made $10 an hour when I was 16, decades ago.  We're just used to America being a poor country now.  All our money goes to the top and we've just accepted that people should be poor.

My laptop is about to die, so I'll edit in stuff later. I just want to leave this link here. http://fedinprint.org/items/fedfap/97-06.html

 

EDIT: For the record, I don't like the Federal Reserve. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by WISD0MTREE

[Solomon]

I made $10 an hour when I was 16, decades ago.  We're just used to America being a poor country now.  All our money goes to the top and we've just accepted that people should be poor.

Trickle down economics (Reagan's version, not Will Roger's) is discredited but its legacy lives on.

[SoS]

Min wage has risen plenty over the last few decades. The buying power has fallen lower than ever. Unfortunately, capitalism is good at price discovery. You basically get what you pay for, including wages. There's only ever been one answer...get an education, be ambitious, climb, and leave half the population to wallow in the filth you rise above.

[elsuper]

Minimum wagd jobs are not designed to worked at long term, they are designed for folks to learn some skills and move on, or to use temporarily until they can get back on their feet.

 

Jobs aren't designed for the benefit of the worker at all, or with any thought to their future.

[WISD0MTREE]

Jobs aren't designed for the benefit of the worker at all, or with any thought to their future.

What, is it some conspiracy by the big bad bankers to keep the poor poor? 

 

If not, ignore this. 

If so, please take my tin foil hat. It appears that others can use it more than me. 

[Grillick]

No WISD0MTREE, jobs are designed to benefit the employer and his shareholders in the short-term. Modern business culture has little room for long-term investment in labor.

[Solomon]

It's an interesting question. In a democracy (i.e. most people get to vote for their governmental representatives), should they vote for the people who promise to improve their lives by promising them more money or should they vote for the people who promise to improve their lives by giving them more say (choices, information, transparency) in decision making?

[WISD0MTREE]

No WISD0MTREE, jobs are designed to benefit the employer and his shareholders in the short-term. Modern business culture has little room for long-term investment in labor.

But without jobs, they wouldn't have anything to keep them wealthy. There is competition to get workers to work for them as opposed to someone else whenever there is a shortage.

 

EDIT:

It's an interesting question. In a democracy (i.e. most people get to vote for their governmental representatives), should they vote for the people who promise to improve their lives by promising them more money or should they vote for the people who promise to improve their lives by giving them more say (choices, information, transparency) in decision making?

Why not have a republic? Edited September 13, 2014 by WISD0MTREE

[Solomon]

Republics are considered by most people a form of democracy, WISD0MTREE. France (Hollande), Russia (Putin), and the USA (Obama) are examples of presidential democracies. Spain (Filipe/Rajoy), and the UK (Elizabeth/Cameron) are examples of constitutional monarchies. Portugal (Passos Coelho/Cavaco Silva) and Italy (Renzi/Napolitano) are semi-presidential. All of them are generally considered democracies because to a greater or lesser extent, the electorate can choose who represents them.

 

Can we go back to the pertinent question now?

[SoS]

There's a simple rule in business. You can't sell something for less than it costs you to make it (if you want to stay in business long).

[Grillick]

There's another simple rule of business that often is neglected: you can't sell something if the people can't afford to buy it.