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This is a great example of how community stories can add depth to the Politics and War experience.

So, since it's out there, worth clarifying I was the third mediator, acting on my own behalf and not of my Alliance. A fair portion here frankly warrants an ummm... no? Not what happened? That being said, I can point out the inconsistencies if that's acceptable to the parties... Worth pointing out it's not super conducive to peace negotiations to rehash what occured, and rather try to move forward with the clarifications that were made in RON. I'll forward my own here also, in the interest of transparency. First, let me try to explain my method, which admittedly comes from a more, contract creation oriented process, as that's a portion of my background. Generally, it goes: 1. Principles (must have) -> 2. Initial or preliminary terms -> 3. counterproposal/negotiation -> 4. Final contract -> 5. Review/Signature. Probably was a mistake to forward the principles portion... kind of assumes the parties wouldn't immediately perceive things as bad faith, or what have you, breaking things down. I think Party B (R*se/TFP) were generally well-behaved, despite some hiccups, on that note. We got to like, step 3 barely. I was hoping to clarify working with Epi directly as to what TFP/R*se would and wouldn't go for, in a counterproposal or consolidated terms, so that we could go from there. But alas, it didn't materialize. I made it clear despite the headaches, I am happy to continue mediating the process, likely in a direct format, since that appears to be a possibility now. Moving away from my position as a private individual, for which discretion was already kind of blown (smh Velyni), I can probably offer Camelot a temporary Protectorate, tied to the duration of the NAP. I reckon that may get you closer to peace. Feel free to let me know. @Velyni Vas@EpimetheusTalks@Shwin

For the sake of anyone interested in following this in the future and doesn't want to search RON for this conversation, you can find it here: https://discord.com/channels/446601982564892672/599998912128090133/1389501320783990815

You might want to check out the roleplay sections on NationStates or Reddit’s r/NationStatesRP—both have active maps outside Orbis. Have you tried those yet?

HAHAHAHA good luck with that bud You broke the last one Everyone else needs guarantees not you lmfao

Will gladly discuss this with your further publicly because there’s definitely some misinformation/misunderstandings here. I’m not a wall of text guy, so I’ll be reaching out in RON. Thanks for the reply.

You and the mediator asked us not to discuss the latest set of peace talks in public. I think this means you have changed your mind and that's great. We can discuss this openly and I can respond to your offer. Several third parties attempted to mediate in this war. The first one asked us to hit Sword Coast and WTF in order to get into your good graces. The second one said that we would be granted white peace and 3 protectorates in exchange for giving up control of our foreign affairs for the next year. The third one got a lot further but ultimately we reached an impasse. I assume you're not talking about the first two mediations when you mention 'withdrawal' since it's obvious we don't want to give up our political independence and I've said that in public. That means you're talking about the third mediation. It started with both parties agreeing to 'let things cool off' which you immediately disregarded by posting 20 advertisements calling for the removal of our leaders. Even the mediators perceived this as poisoning the well and immediately undermining talks. When we posted our advertisements it was the approval of the mediator and you in order to mitigate your breach and level the playing field. We then expected you to list your terms so that we could negotiate and reach a compromise. You refused and pushed that responsibility onto us. So we a created a list of four concerns with the mediator which needed to be addressed for there to be lasting peace. Rebuilding Support: Camelot needs financial assistance to rebuild, as without funds, recovery to a viable, playable state is impossible (Note: at this time, no specific amount given, nor suggested framework for making it operational). Comprehensive Non-Aggression Pact (NAP): Camelot requires a real, enforceable NAP covering direct and "proxy warfare", broad peace/security guarantees, and a recovery window of at least 6 (six) months to clear debts and restore its economy. End of Political Isolation: Any and all efforts, prior or future, which have been made to with the intent or result to politically isolate Camelot, including but not limited to purchasing debt, raiding policies or coordination aimed at marginalizing its diplomacy or treaty-building, must be ended. Closure of the Convention Effort: The "Geneva Convention", even if inactive, should be publicly and formally discontinued to signal the end, or gradual relaxation of coordinated punitive measures and allow space for normalization. You rejected these concerns outright and set the tone with some of your own terms. Camelot will formally surrender to Rose and acknowledge that they made false claims in regard to a proxy war and debt buyout. They will refrain from making any further accusations of these points. Camelot will not get financial support from Rose after ruining our rebuild twice, and extending this rebuild period. Furthermore, we have not and will not get involved financially with Camelot. Any NAP must be signed, in-game, by both Camelot, Samurai and extensions. Both parties attacked, both parties will be subject to the same terms. Political Isolation boils down to other individual alliances and are based on Camelots conduct. Any type of diplomacy there is Camelot’s to carry-out and Rose has no say in who chooses to tie or conduct business with them. Geneva Convention is handled by TFP, therefore only TFP can end any discussion there. I want to discuss your response for a minute. Your first point is a demand for complete political and military capitulation. The second point appears to be miscommunication because we wanted help from third parties (not Rose) with rebuild and we didn't want you to sabotage it. The third point crosses a red line for Samurai and you knew that term would prevent us ever agreeing to this. The fourth point denies reality. You (or TFP if that's your preference) created an organization with the stated goal of permanently politically isolating Camelot and declaring anyone that would work with us an "Enemy of Orbis". Other alliances had already voted on and started enacting this political isolation by the time the talks had begun. It would have cost you nothing to say "Camelot should not be isolated and we will not punish alliances for working with them" but you refused to. The fifth point essentially said you wouldn't close the convention and this left the door open to another coalition against Camelot in the future. What happens when we fight another war? Well our opponent will go that to server, where we're not allowed, and campaign for punitive game wide measures again. It would in effect make us a third class alliance with less political rights and a rogue state. The conventions terms would also be legitimized if it continued to exist and that means warring another alliance for 10+ months and permanently isolating them are acceptable. For these reasons we rejected your response and so you consolidated them into a new set of draft terms. Complete admission of defeat from Camelot and Samurai. Camelot acknowledges that they made false, unsubstantiated claims regarding Rose engaging in a proxy war and debt buyout. They further acknowledge that they violated their NAP with TFP and with Rose, and will refrain from further claims to the contrary. The admission can be made by form of an apology posted publicly, to Rose and TFP. All parties involved (including Samurai) agree to a blanket NAP for a length of 12 months. This will be signed in-game between parties and extensions. You doubled down and removed any mention of the convention, political isolation or debt. Observers might think this is a good thing but it's not. You removed those points from negotiations entirely so that we couldn't do anything about them. We responded to these terms and said that we would not lie to our members and that Samurai would refuse the NAP. However, we agreed with you that there need a strong guarantee of peace and above all else we required a strong anti-proxying term. You rejected this. It was when those concerns were dismissed and you had taken a hardline stance that we withdrew from negotiations. White peace sounds great but it's not. This is an asymmetrical conflict and without an end to the political isolation and a powerful anti-proxying term we would just be wasting money on infrastructure before you or another alliance which doesn't like us destroys it again. We wouldn't be able to recover or even fight back after another war and you know that. This serves as both a rejection of your offer but also an invitation. There are lots of other alliances that have taken an interest in our affairs through this convention, if they want to resolve the conflict and restore norms they can offer their support to us and guarantee us protection from Rose and the end of the convention. If we had a strong security guarantee then white peace might be possible.

That would mean he'd stop getting attention, and I don't think he can handle that yet.

10 YEARS! Congrats.

Happy Birthday TKR -from your number 1 supporter since pandemic

You withdrew from talks, not us. We can white peace today but that doesn’t fit your Rose bad narrative. Quit the games, Epi.

We haven't had a single member leave because they thought we were wrong lmao. The attrition we've faced is because of the prolonged war that Rose has subjected us to and their commitment to a 10 month war followed by permanent isolation, embargo and raids. Declaring an alliance an "enemy of orbis" and removing them from the game for withdrawing from a NAP with weeks of notice, 30+ pages of explanation and screenshots, and 5h of video is ridiculous. There's plenty of alliances in the convention that have pointed this out. We haven't been proven wrong and even if we were your response is completely disproportionate. A lot of people are trying to brush the convention under the rug and say oh this is permissible because it's Camelot. "Rose will never do this again". You can say that as much as you like but the atmosphere in the top 50 has changed. You can feel it in the channels, on the forums, in discussions between fa heads. People are afraid right now because they could be next. It's having a chilling effect on politics which hurts everyone. I think you're the one that's making a mistake because if you change the game in this way there's no going back. If Camelot is the last alliance defending the values which Scarfalot and others stood for then we'll do that proudly. We are not UPN. We don't dream of lasting forever. We just want to last as long as we can.

The victim mentality and propaganda gets so old. People are critiquing and counting nations that leave/delete Camelot and Samurai to show the impact your decision making has led to. No one wants these players to quit the game or delete. However, alliance members speak their voice with loyalty or dissent. It’s may be time to admit the fault in your actions and the position you put the members of both your alliances into by squandering their finances and violating an NAP because of your own trademark paranoia and propaganda. But, if it’s more important to you to “be right” than to be humble enough to admit your mistake, then the end result will be what it is. You can’t simply shift blame to those who opposes what you did, and gaslight them for your current self-imposed reality. Actions have consequences.

This thread is now locked because of the gravedig.

o7

Interesting setup! The discount after the second hire is a nice touch—curious to see how this plays out in future wars.

Does this AA still exist?

I agree with your opinion on the formation of the new alliance. This is truly inspired by the rich history and legacy!

Here's to another 10 years of The Nerds Radiant.

happy birthday and congrats on 10 years TKR 🥳

You think that's bad? Imagine the therapy @Dalinar needs from having known me since I was a teenager LOL

another decade another w

Very happy birthday TKR

Orange is definitely a better color for ya haha A pretty spreadsheet!? Canbec knows the way to my heart! (Also obligatory comment about "average PnW/spreadsheet simulator moment")