Religion

[Kyoko]

Agnostic is the only way to go seeing as there is no proof for or against the existence of god.

No, there is nothing inherently wrong with having faith in a god or gods, or following religious doctrine or even being devout in your faith so long as said religious practices aren't harmful or oppressive in teachings ect.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Gods above everyone in this thread is hopeless, or around 14 and edgy as !@#$ *cough Ibrahim cough*

 

I take it you didn't appreciate my ice cream analogy? I'll be sure to say gingerbread men next time, kid.

[Mutwa]

Atheism has no aspects or beliefs, it is simply the lack of a belief in a god(s), nothing more. In addition to their atheism, atheists hold various positions on other subjects but these are based not on atheist but on science, philosophy, etc.

 

Atheism has several aspects which are lumped together. In order of least to potentially most harmful:

 

1. The belief that nothing brought the universe into existence. This is generally an inward and reflective aspect of Atheism. In other words it's about living your own life in a certain way and doesn't effect anyone else MOST of the time. Unless there's a war and you're a conscientious objector or something.

 

 

The question of the origin of the universe is usually based on science, however this statement isn't accurate. It should rather read that the universe does not require a cause.

 

 

2. Atheist dogma. This can be harmful if you try to externalise these/impose on others. For example Atheists complete disregard for human life as being nothing more than a random formation of matter and death as a mere rearrangement of matter (which in that case shouldn't matter  ) or the fact that pretty much all of Atheism is non-compatible with most of the Shariah Law.

 

 

Their is no such thing as atheist dogma. I also do not know any atheist that believe humans are just a random collection of matter.

 

 

3. New Atheism. This is a radical, proselytising, political and fast growing ideology within Atheism that supports believers (which is what they are ironically).

 

When you look at (3), it is blatantly obvious that this is the greater evil, especially when it supports (2). Saying Atheism is bad because of the atheist regimes of Stalin who killed millions of his own people and Mao Zedong who starved millions to death (to name but two), would be perfectly correct.

 

 

Never heard of 'New Atheism' but as has been mentioned, Stalin and Mao did not commit their crimes because of their atheism, but rather because of their personal or political ideologies. Just because someone holds or lacks a given belief does not mean that this automatically fuels their actions. The fact that most criminals in the US are Christian does not mean that Christianity was the driving force behind their crimes.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

The question of the origin of the universe is usually based on science, however this statement isn't accurate. It should rather read that the universe does not require a cause.

 

1) Everything that comes into existence has to have a cause for it's existence. 

 

2) Our universe came into existence. (All scientists agree on this point. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old. It has not always existed.)

 

3) Therefore our universe has to have a cause for it's existence.

 

4) Due to the absurdity of the infinite regress of causes, that cause has to be an uncaused cause (ie something that always existed). 

 

5) That uncaused cause must be an intelligent, all powerful, free agent in order to be able to bring our universe into existence.

 

Their is no such thing as atheist dogma. I also do not know any atheist that believe humans are just a random collection of matter.

 

Are you saying you believe in a soul?

 

Never heard of 'New Atheism' 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism

 

Stalin and Mao did not commit their crimes because of their atheism, but rather because of their personal or political ideologies. Just because someone holds or lacks a given belief does not mean that this automatically fuels their actions. The fact that most criminals in the US are Christian does not mean that Christianity was the driving force behind their crimes.

 

"Communists leaders were motivated by a strong desire to impose an ideological "package" over the whole world. The package included the eradication of Religion, defined by arch-atheist, Karl Marx, as “The opium of the people.†According to Marx, religion helped keep the masses passive before the abuse of the wealthy and powerful, and the only way to free them from the “stupor," God and religion had to be eradicated.  Lenin embraced Marx's views and so did Stalin up to the Second World war. The enforcement of Atheism was a “critical†requirement for Communism’s success, and thus it had to be implemented at all costs. This meant oppressive measures, such as brainwashing in state schools, the closing of houses of worship and arresting countless religious leaders."

[Vahak]

You're all unbelievers, join the only proper church if you want true enlightenment: http://www.venganza.org/about/

 

EDIT: http://www.amazon.com/The-Gospel-Flying-Spaghetti-Monster/dp/0812976568

Edited September 9, 2015 by The Respected Man

[Mutwa]

1) Everything that comes into existence has to have a cause for it's existence. 

 

2) Our universe came into existence. (All scientists agree on this point. Our universe is 13.8 billion years old. It has not always existed.)

 

3) Therefore our universe has to have a cause for it's existence.

 

Time is a property of the universe, it is unclear if there was a 'before the big bang'. This is also a fallacy of composition, just because something is true for things within the universe does not mean that they also apply to the universe as a whole. Also, it isn't entirely clear that the rule applies to everything within the universe either, virtual particles appear to be uncaused, though the jury is still out.

 

4) Due to the absurdity of the infinite regress of causes, that cause has to be an uncaused cause (ie something that always existed). 

 

Argument from incredulity, just because you think it is absurd does not mean it can't be true.

 

 

5) That uncaused cause must be an intelligent, all powerful, free agent in order to be able to bring our universe into existence.

 

Says who, you? Why should we believe you? This is a non sequitur, it does not follow from anything you have said.

 

Are you saying you believe in a soul?

 

 

No, where did you get that from? Just because something is not a random collection of matter does not mean it has a soul, or do you think cars and toasters, being non random collections of matter, have souls?

 

"Communists leaders were motivated by a strong desire to impose an ideological "package" over the whole world. The package included the eradication of Religion, defined by arch-atheist, Karl Marx, as “The opium of the people.†According to Marx, religion helped keep the masses passive before the abuse of the wealthy and powerful, and the only way to free them from the “stupor," God and religion had to be eradicated.  Lenin embraced Marx's views and so did Stalin up to the Second World war. The enforcement of Atheism was a “critical†requirement for Communism’s success, and thus it had to be implemented at all costs. This meant oppressive measures, such as brainwashing in state schools, the closing of houses of worship and arresting countless religious leaders."

 

This contradicts my statement that their actions were driven by personal or political ideologies how? According to this, making a success of Communism, a political ideology, was the driving force, and enforcing atheism was one of the tools used.

[Jude Connors]

 

There is a point…
Is there a point to all this?
Let’s find a point

Is this real?
Or is this just a ride?

The world is like a ride
You think it’s real – it’s just a ride
And we can change it any time we want
It’s only a choice – between fear and love

The world is like a ride
You think it’s real – it’s just a ride
And we can change it any time we want
It’s only a choice – between fear and love

The ride goes up and down and round and round
It has thrills and chills and it’s very brightly colored
Up and down and round and round
And it’s very loud

Don’t worry, don’t be afraid
It’s just a ride
And we can change it any time we want
It’s only a choice between fear and love

Why are we here?
I think we’re part of a greater wisdom
Than we will ever understand
A higher order – call it what you want –
Know what I call it?

The Big Electron
The Big Electron
Wooah, woah,
Wooah, woah
The Big Electron
Wooooah, woooah
Wooah, woah

It doesn’t punish, doesn’t reward
It doesn’t judge at all
It just is, and so are we
For a little while

The ride goes up and down and round and round
It has thrills and chills and it’s very brightly colored
Up and down and round and round
And it’s very loud

Don’t worry, don’t be afraid
It’s just a ride
And we can change it any time we want
It’s only a choice between fear and love

The Big Electron
Wooah, woah,
Wooah, woah
The Big Electron
Wooooah, woooah
Wooah, woah

It doesn’t punish, doesn’t reward
It doesn’t judge at all
It just is, and so are we
For a little while

Edited September 9, 2015 by Jude Connors

[PigInZen]

sup Jude?

[Jude Connors]

sup Jude?

 

Mah nizzo,

 

sup with ya, PIZ? How's life? Gimme a call sometime.

[Arthur James]

a man without soul....great.....animal....lol

 

so this is how the mighty Sam And Emperor fall into the dark side. (the flying spaghetti)

Edited September 10, 2015 by Arthur James

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Time is a property of the universe, it is unclear if there was a 'before the big bang'.

 

Time, Space, and Matter all came into existence with the universe at some point in the past. So, yes, technically there was no "before" the universe coming into existence.

 

This is also a fallacy of composition, just because something is true for things within the universe does not mean that they also apply to the universe as a whole. Also, it isn't entirely clear that the rule applies to everything within the universe either, virtual particles appear to be uncaused, though the jury is still out.

 

 

Argument from incredulity, just because you think it is absurd does not mean it can't be true.

 

You have misused another logical fallacy. It's absurd due to the fact that it is completely irrational to say an infinite regress of causes could possibly cause anything and not due to some lack in imagination. Can pigs fly somewhere else in the universe (all things being equal)? Nope.

 

Says who, you? Why should we believe you? This is a non sequitur, it does not follow from anything you have said.

 

That last point (5) is a separate argument. The final conclusion should have been 4. 

 

No, where did you get that from? Just because something is not a random collection of matter does not mean it has a soul, or do you think cars and toasters, being non random collections of matter, have souls?

 

Cars and toasters are not exactly living things but since you brought them up as examples of non random collections of matter, due to the fact that they were brought into existence by an intelligent being (a human), what brought human beings into existence? If the answer to this question is not another "intelligent being" then how can you possibly say we are more than a random collection of matter? 

[Kyubnyan]

Ibrahim, stop bringing up logical fallacies, everyone who has taken 9th grade psychology knows what they are so you don't need to point them out.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Ibrahim, stop bringing up logical fallacies, everyone who has taken 9th grade psychology knows what they are so you don't need to point them out.

 

I think you mean "Mutwa", he's the one bringing them up. (Incorrectly I might add.)

[Moon Man]

I say each religion (except scientology and other cults, that religion was made just to troll and make profit IMO) has certain things right. Christianity in general has the concepts of heaven, hell, combating degeneracy, and purely malevolent demons. Catholicism has the concept of purgatory, limbo, and exorcism. Islam has the concept of the djinn. Buddhism and Hinduism have the concept of reincarnation (dont know too much about them honestly)

[Doktor Avalanche]

In my experiences with other people of faith, virtually most do not know what they believe except what has been told to them by others who interpret their faith based on their own conclusions. The few who actually know what their faith and practices are all about are almost never on the internet to share or express it, mainly due to the latter.

[Sailor Jerry]

Religion is crutch for the weak minded. Is there a higher power at work.....probably, who really knows. All I know is that the majority religions believe in the same thing....one main being at the top and one at the bottom.....with mankind in the middle fighting for their souls. Christianity really took hold with the fall of the Roman empire.....and why do you think that is? People no longer wanted to follow normal people who placed themselves above others through use of military force. Along comes this idea that only very few select people can converse with God, lets call them priests. Now the priests say..."If you don't follow God's will, hour soul will be damned for all eternity"! Now, how can someone argue with something they can't see. Not only would your soul be damned, if you were of any consequence by having any sort of military, then the church would use it's military might to push it's agendas....aka the crushing of the Knights Templar and the Crusades. To me, it just seems like anothef form of control but only through a different form of means.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Religion is crutch for the weak minded. Is there a higher power at work.....probably, who really knows. All I know is that the majority religions believe in the same thing....one main being at the top and one at the bottom.....with mankind in the middle fighting for their souls. Christianity really took hold with the fall of the Roman empire.....and why do you think that is? People no longer wanted to follow normal people who placed themselves above others through use of military force. Along comes this idea that only very few select people can converse with God, lets call them priests. Now the priests say..."If you don't follow God's will, hour soul will be damned for all eternity"! Now, how can someone argue with something they can't see. Not only would your soul be damned, if you were of any consequence by having any sort of military, then the church would use it's military might to push it's agendas....aka the crushing of the Knights Templar and the Crusades. To me, it just seems like anothef form of control but only through a different form of means.

 

Thanks for reinforcing the stereotype.

 

Religion's should also be judged individually based on their own merit rather than with a collective brush just because you happen to have a bad opinion of one (most atheist's only know about Christianity and use that as a reference point to attack all religions for example) - even if those reasons are justified. 

 

Islam for example doesn't have a clergy. So to use that as your main argument for why "religion" is another form of control is pretty ridiculous! Try again.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Religion can be and has been used to control.

The big three (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism) all started innocently. But now are a political tool.

I'll give you a few examples. Almost immediately after inception, Islam was used as a political tool. While it was remarkably similar to Judaism it saw plenty of conflict with them right at the start. Islam has been used to run states and vast empires for centuries now.

In Europe, after the fall of the Roman empire nearly every single war was fought using some form of Christianity to justify it. This only really ended in the late 17th century. Everything from crusades to pogroms to colonization utilized the Church as a means of reason.

 

You could say the same thing about Atheism (which is pretty much a "belief system" as much as atheists try to deny it). How many wars do you think were started for secular/non-religious reasons? I'm pretty sure they far outweigh anything you could point to that had any religious motivation. Do you know how many heads were chopped off by atheists in France when they wanted to separate Church and State? They beheaded so many people that they actually invented the guillotine to speed up the process.

 

People read the Holy Books and cherrypick them. No one truly follows a religion.

 

There are indeed a lot of people who cheery pick what they wish to believe, that much is true, but not everyone does that.

 

We've lost so much in translation. We don't know what is literal and what is metaphorical. Our religions are a mess, but they all want one thing: unity.

 

I think you are speaking for Christianity. There are Millions of Muslims who have memorised the entire Quran in it's original Arabic language and practically every Muslim has at least memorised 3 chapters of it by heart (in Arabic). Since every word in the Quran is considered to be the word of God Verbatim it is all to be taken literally. Don't conflate Christianity with Islam or any two religions for that matter, Islam is not a mess. 

[Peace and War]

Can't believe in the bible because it was written, and edited by man, for countless years.

 

Also, there where other religions before Christianity, so what makes it right?

 

Jesus was Jewish.

 

 

People always pushed Christianity on me and these are the reasons why I can't follow it. I can't say much for the other religions, but the Torah and Quran where written by man as well. How can you fully believe in something that was written by man?

 

I do believe in fate, and I do believe in karma, I do believe there is a higher power at work, but your not gonna find it in a book my friends.

[Doktor Avalanche]

I think you are speaking for Christianity. There are Millions of Muslims who have memorised the entire Quran in it's original Arabic language and practically every Muslim has at least memorised 3 chapters of it by heart (in Arabic). Since every word in the Quran is considered to be the word of God Verbatim it is all to be taken literally. Don't conflate Christianity with Islam or any two religions for that matter, Islam is not a mess. 

All religious texts have been memorized by thousands upon thousands of its zealous followers. And all religions have their messes regardless if you want to believe it or not. Facts are the world knows it and most accept it. There is nothing different from Judaism, Christianity and Islam when it comes to adherents, followers and the zeal behinds its over-zealous bigots as well as its huge messes, differences in interpretations of textual criticisms and those who choose to ignore tenets or adhere to the rule of literalism which usually means others should die or suffer for being "infidels, blasphemers or apostates".

 

So if you hold Islam to the highest tenets and say it is innocent of being "messy", you are just as blind and hypocritical to your own faith as the Christians and Jews that you consider are blind and hypocritical to theirs.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

All religious texts have been memorized by thousands upon thousands of its followers.

 

How could that be true when the overwhelming majority of Christians can not even read the Bible in Biblical Hebrew/Biblical Aramahic? I have never even heard of anyone memorising the Bible in it's entirety in English let alone it's original languages and the same can be said for the Torah. In fact bring me any scripture of any religion (other than Islam) that was memorised in it's original language by a considerable number of it's adherents.

[Doktor Avalanche]

How could that be true when the overwhelming majority of Christians can not even read the Bible in Biblical Hebrew/Biblical Aramahic? I have never even heard of anyone memorising the Bible in it's entirety in English let alone it's original languages and the same can be said for the Torah. In fact bring me any scripture of any religion (other than Islam) that was memorised in it's original language by a considerable number of it's adherents.

The Benedictines, the Franciscans, the Monks of Mt. Athos, the Egyptian Alexandrians, the Tewahedo Monks, the Syriac Monastics- dozens of monastics and ascetics I personally know have memorized multiple, some the entire Septuagint and Latin canons, a few have with the Aramaic Peshitta. Christianity is not limited to just the Protestants and Evangelicals. Orthodox Christianity makes up half of the faith, and Hesychasm is accepted in the East which includes honest devotion and strong adherence to meditation of Sacred Scripture.

 

Many Asatru I know have memorized the entire works of the Havamal, the Prose and Poetic Eddas in its original Norse tongue. These texts are their religious books and they firmly believe in them as to be Sacred.

 

It is common to find Rebbe who have memorized the Entire Torah and Psalms in the Hebrew tongue.

 

It is a practice for some sects of Brahmists to memorize the entire Bhagavad Gita.

 

Many Therevada Buddhists put to memory the entire Tripitaka so they can use the texts as an extensive, meditative mantra.

 

And then we have Traditional oral teachings which have been put to memory from Native American practices varying from tribe to tribe, people to people.

 

Sadly, I know many Muslims who claim that Islam has many that memorize the entire Koran. I have yet to meet one who actually has even memorized a single chapter and I lived around a large metropolis surrounded by a huge Persian community for half my life.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

The Benedictines, the Franciscans, the Monks of Mt. Athos, the Egyptian Alexandrians, the Tewahedo Monks, the Syriac Monastics- dozens of monastics and ascetics I personally know have memorized multiple, some the entire Septuagint and Latin canons, a few have with the Aramaic Peshitta. Christianity is not limited to just the Protestants and Evangelicals. Orthodox Christianity makes up half of the faith, and Hesychasm is accepted in the East which includes honest devotion and strong adherence to meditation of Sacred Scripture.

 

Many Asatru I know have memorized the entire works of the Havamal, the Prose and Poetic Eddas in its original Norse tongue. These texts are their religious books and they firmly believe in them as to be Sacred.

 

It is common to find Rebbe who have memorized the Entire Torah and Psalms in the Hebrew tongue.

 

It is a practice for some sects of Brahmists to memorize the entire Bhagavad Gita.

 

Many Therevada Buddhists put to memory the entire Tripitaka so they can use the texts as an extensive, meditative mantra.

 

And then we have Traditional oral teachings which have been put to memory from Native American practices varying from tribe to tribe, people to people.

 

I need to see evidence that goes beyond your words.

 

Sadly, I know many Muslims who claim that Islam has many that memorize the entire Koran. I have yet to meet one who actually has even memorized a single chapter and I lived around a large metropolis surrounded by a huge Persian community for half my life.

 

You can not be Muslim if you have not memorised at least 3 chapters of Quran. Why? Because payer is one of the 5 pillars of Islam:

 

1) Which means as a Muslim you need to pray 5 times a day.

 

2) The way in which Muslims pray is by reciting chapters of the Quran (in Arabic) by heart.

 

And in order to fulfil this obligation it is incumbent upon every Muslim that they must have first memorised at least 3 chapters of the Quran. Otherwise they won't even be able to pray and hence can not be considered Muslim. I have met far more Muslims than you and I have never, in my life, come across anyone who claimed to be Muslim has not managed to do this (even those who's first language is not Arabic and don't understand the language have still memorised it) so I'm sorry if I don't believe you.

 

Small sample of Muslim children who memorised the Quran by heart...

 

 

White Muslim teen...

 

 

Say no more!

[Solomon]

I don't see why memorizing a text is worthwhile. I could probably memorize Metamorphosis or Memorial do Convento or Auto da Fé if my life depended on it but it would do nothing to help me understand them. In fact, the obsession with the words would obscure the meaning.

[Doktor Avalanche]

I need to see evidence that goes beyond your words.

 

Youtube videos of Christians, Heathens, Buddhists and Jews reciting sacred texts are not a common posting. If you do not accept my word on what I have said, which many can attest to is true, that is your decision. However it is accepted that as a single practice; Benedictines are well known for reciting the Psalms from memory, Chief Maggids of Jerusalem recite the Torah by memory; Therevada Buddhists are exceptionally known for their recitation of the entire Tripitaka/Pali Cannons. From experience I have traveled and met multiple monastics among the Orthodox Christian communities abroad and many were known for their incredible insight into Theosis and knowledge of their sacred texts from the Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew as well as memory of recitation- in their humility they never bragged of their knowledge but maintained meekness and compassion for others. ALso in my crossings I have met many Asatru and Heathens who have put to memory the Havamal and the Eddas, as it is a practice among the Asatru to recite the texts among their Blots. It is common to sing the Eddas and the Havamal in the Norse tongue. Evidence? My eyes. If you accept my word- cool. If not, I really do not sweat it. After all in your faith I am doomed to Hell and not worthy to live now anyways.