State of Israel

[Franz Von Dietrich]

  This topic is about the State of Israel from 1947 to current times (DO NOT DERAIL)

 

          Anyways, the State of Israel is one of the causes of Middle East civil unrest. The Zionist still keep on their opression of the people of Palestine. Israel should be considered a Puppet state, due to it being mainly related and supported to the United States of America.

Now, I know most of you are going to mention Hamas and say "Palestinians hate Israel!" Not every Gazan or Palestinian is apart of Hamas, and if you believe that that's a ignorant belief.

 

        Now, I do not support Iran either, to be honest, no government should have religion involve, due to causing many internal crisis.

 

      (AGAIN: DO NOT DERAIL OR MENTION ANYTHING ASSOCIATED IN WW2)

 

[vonnorman]

The problem soley is land area. There isnt enough land area for two comfortable nations. But actually visiting israel to see first hand there isnt oppression its purely the hamas maintaining a state of war. Its a desert, palestinians could ask for land anywhere and be better off but again so could the jewish settlers. We have a rock grinding a rock in two determined religions wanting to live in the land of their sacred writings

[vonnorman]

Why not kick everyone off and turn it into the firstever un sanctioned global park? If you kids cant play nice teacher takes away the toy.

[MRBOOTY]

Not every Israeli hates Gaza either

And Israel exists, so peace will need to be found with it there

That being said, enough land exists

they both just need to stop acting like di**s

[Odin]

Duh ... Isn't it fine if the "Zionists" are down there fighting? I don't think that the mass of the jews down there are even zionists, they sit in their villas in the US. Or do you want them to leave Israel and resettle ... maybe in your city ? 

 

As long as Israel exists, the goat-bro's at least won't turn their complete attention to europe. Didn't see any jew yelling JEHOWAAAA and blow themselves up recently(ever).

[Red Huxley]

I do not believe Israel is what has caused this mess in the Middle East (Arab Spring or the Civil wars, protests or riots.). Israel is only planning for the future of their own sovereign nation and is openly harassed by many Arab nations. Hezbollah and Hamas are their biggest threats, next to Iran. But the International Communities will crush Iran of they over step their boundaries and same will go for Israel, if they strike first.

 

Let's tear down these walls, let's give recognition to these Arabic regions that just want to live without a terrorist Government. Israel is not a Puppet of the U.S., Israel has stayed out of U.S. conflict for a very very long time. But, America can fix this problem, let's give Palestine sovereignty and recognize them as a state.

[Guest Ronald Reagen]

the reason behind this is american imperalism, I SUPPORT IT

[Red Huxley]

American Imperialism? Or, the best defense ever?

 

Bases everywhere.

[fistofdoom]

  no government should have religion involve, due to causing many internal crisis.

I could argue that people are the cause of internal conflict, more so than any single polarizing factor. But that might be derailing the topic.

[Guest Ronald Reagen]

i support reagan, HE IS THE NEW JULIUS CAESER, IMPERALISM FTW

[Fox Fire]

The problem soley is land area. There isnt enough land area for two comfortable nations. But actually visiting israel to see first hand there isnt oppression its purely the hamas maintaining a state of war. Its a desert, palestinians could ask for land anywhere and be better off but again so could the jewish settlers. We have a rock grinding a rock in two determined religions wanting to live in the land of their sacred writings

No oppression? So snipers shooting children and bragging about it is A-OK?

 

 

Why not kick everyone off and turn it into the firstever un sanctioned global park? If you kids cant play nice teacher takes away the toy.

I think Israel should be an internationally governed hub.

 

 

American Imperialism? Or, the best defense ever?

 

Bases everywhere.

in over 50 different countries. Best offense ever.

It's modern imperialism.

 

____________________________

 

I don't support Israel or Hamas. I don't support a religious state in Palestine at all. In fact, the Israelis don't even honor the terms of the agreement that created their nation to begin with. And every couple years they go on a massive child killing spree, but because they're Americas ally, it's perfectly fine.

But oh shit! look out for that big bad Iran who has never declared an offensive war! We call them evil while being allied to Israel, but that's only because Iran is a Russian vassal, instead of being our !@#$. If you aint our !@#$, you're a terrorist state. If you're a terrorist state and our !@#$, you get cookies and pats on the back for blowing up small children inside their own schools.

[Big Brother]

The State of Israel should respect the UN partition plan from 1947, it needs to end its blockade of the Gaza Strip and it needs to stop settling people where they're not supposed to. I don't believe there can be any hope of peace between Israel and Palestine without those things as a basis for progress and cooperation.

[Franz Von Dietrich]

Israel is not a real state, regardless of what the UN's says.

[Belisarius]

The State of Israel should respect the UN partition plan from 1947, it needs to end its blockade of the Gaza Strip and it needs to stop settling people where they're not supposed to. I don't believe there can be any hope of peace between Israel and Palestine without those things as a basis for progress and cooperation.

 

Pretty much this. There's a massive failure in the American media to actually articulate the circumstances of Israel's birth: that Palestine was ethnically cleansed to make way for a racially-motivated state. Not to mention the eventual occupation of the West Bank and the siege on Gaza. 

 

It's too late to unwind the clock. Rather, Israel must withdraw from the Occupied Territories and share Jerusalem with the Palestinian Authority. Otherwise, they are simply asking for more armed resistance.

[SoS]

Israel is a thorn in the region that a bunch of dumb dicks thought might be funny to stick there.

[Diocletian]

Israel's claim to legitimacy lies solely with the "United Nations" and its partition in 1947. Not only does the U.N. as well as any globalized organization truly have no real authority (lest it be an acceptable idea in the first place) over any sovereign nation, it sure as Hell shouldn't have the authority to steal land from native inhabitants to hand it back to another ethnic group. The "historical religious" argument is a weak one at best too. Israel loves to also boast about how the "Holy Land" was originally theirs to begin with, however, that's false to begin with too as the ancient Israelites stole said piece of sod from the ancient Canaanites. To be completely fair though, coexistance would be the best option obviously IF both the Israel and Palestine ceased their attacks on one another. Coexistance is a joke, and one the liberals of the world love to shout about in the fairytale that is their "rationalization." You can't reason with people who are hellbent on murdering you, and that goes both ways. 

[Six of Ten]

Pretty much this. There's a massive failure in the American media to actually articulate the circumstances of Israel's birth: that Palestine was ethnically cleansed to make way for a racially-motivated state. Not to mention the eventual occupation of the West Bank and the siege on Gaza. 

 

It's too late to unwind the clock. Rather, Israel must withdraw from the Occupied Territories and share Jerusalem with the Palestinian Authority. Otherwise, they are simply asking for more armed resistance.

We were created by ethnic cleansing and imperialism, or I suppose 40 million native Americans killed doesn't count? England's empire caused Ethnic cleansing of natives. that happens. it's one of the nasty side effects of conquest and dominion. AND if you actually READ history, the Palestinians and other arab nations struck first and tried to extinguish Israel, the only reason you're !@#$ing is Israel kicked ass. they won both genocidal wars launched by the arabs and earned their right to exist. No Belisaurius, this isn't because of race, it isn't because they're "America's !@#$ ". it's over religion, if Israel was a muslim country the other arabs and even the palestinians wouldn't give 2 shits that israel existed. US ally or not. the Arabs want the middle east to be Muslim only. Look what ISIS is doing, aside from the kurds the other muslims in the middle east view them as heros. because they're muslim. 

[Fox Fire]

We were created by ethnic cleansing and imperialism, or I suppose 40 million native Americans killed doesn't count? England's empire caused Ethnic cleansing of natives. that happens. it's one of the nasty side effects of conquest and dominion. AND if you actually READ history, the Palestinians and other arab nations struck first and tried to extinguish Israel, the only reason you're !@#$ing is Israel kicked ass. they won both genocidal wars launched by the arabs and earned their right to exist. No Belisaurius, this isn't because of race, it isn't because they're "America's !@#$ ". it's over religion, if Israel was a muslim country the other arabs and even the palestinians wouldn't give 2 shits that israel existed. US ally or not. the Arabs want the middle east to be Muslim only. Look what ISIS is doing, aside from the kurds the other muslims in the middle east view them as heros. because they're muslim. 

This is a really generalizing comment. Even among Salafists, Islamic State is despised. There are old Sunni insurgents that our troops fought against, who are fighting against Islamic State in Iraq as we speak. IS has way more enemies than friends. Their numbers are bolstered by foreign fighters who are there for the sake of fighting.

Also, Israel wouldn't have made it anywhere in either war if not for America handing them everything they ever needed.

But aside from that, we aren't talking about Israels wars with foreign powers. We are talking about how Israel frequently declares war on it's own people simply because those people (who have been there longer than the Jewish Israelis) don't like the idea of foreign nations sending all the worlds Jews there to create a Jewish state in a predominantly Mulsim area, where those Muslims have lived longer than those Jews.

Israels existence is giant conspiracy if conspiracies ever existed.

[Six of Ten]

This is a really generalizing comment. Even among Salafists, Islamic State is despised. There are old Sunni insurgents that our troops fought against, who are fighting against Islamic State in Iraq as we speak. IS has way more enemies than friends. Their numbers are bolstered by foreign fighters who are there for the sake of fighting.

Also, Israel wouldn't have made it anywhere in either war if not for America handing them everything they ever needed.

But aside from that, we aren't talking about Israels wars with foreign powers. We are talking about how Israel frequently declares war on it's own people simply because those people (who have been there longer than the Jewish Israelis) don't like the idea of foreign nations sending all the worlds Jews there to create a Jewish state in a predominantly Mulsim area, where those Muslims have lived longer than those Jews.

Israels existence is giant conspiracy if conspiracies ever existed.

If it wasn't for the Holy Roman Empire and the crusades, Europe would've fallen eventually, the entire world minus maybe China and India would be a "Predominantly Muslim area" so that says little. also where do you think the Torah and Bible were written? Ummm let's see, it was written in a country called ISRAEL and one called JUDAH 2,000 years ago. before that it was called canaan. AFTER pompeii conquered it it was called Palestine. the authors of the bible were Jews, JESUS was a Jew, before Islam existed the entire arab peninsula was either Arab pagan, Jewish or Christian. now tell me again? who was there first? the Jewish tribes? or the Philistine invaders? Also in both wars this century the arabs were the agressors. they got sat on their asses by the vastly superior Israeli army (Which used old soviet tanks btw) and the Israeli airforce (Which used surplus Czechoslovakian Mig-17s and French Mirage 2000s) the first US aircrafts sent to Israel were F-4s and F-15s in the 1970s.  even today the primary Israeli main battle tank is the Merkava, an indigenous design. we don't help them much in hardware, just ammunition and money mainly. as much as it bites your ass, it was Israel before it was Palestine. what happened in 1947 was the restoration of Israel. 

[Belisarius]

We were created by ethnic cleansing and imperialism, or I suppose 40 million native Americans killed doesn't count? England's empire caused Ethnic cleansing of natives. that happens. it's one of the nasty side effects of conquest and dominion. AND if you actually READ history, the Palestinians and other arab nations struck first and tried to extinguish Israel, the only reason you're !@#$ing is Israel kicked ass. they won both genocidal wars launched by the arabs and earned their right to exist. No Belisaurius, this isn't because of race, it isn't because they're "America's !@#$ ". it's over religion, if Israel was a muslim country the other arabs and even the palestinians wouldn't give 2 shits that israel existed. US ally or not. the Arabs want the middle east to be Muslim only. Look what ISIS is doing, aside from the kurds the other muslims in the middle east view them as heros. because they're muslim. 

 

The Holocaust does not justify the Nakba. In much the same way Germany's invasions of Eastern Europe doesn't justify the ethnic cleansing of German civilians in 1945. Or the pogroms against Jews in Arab countries is not justified because of the Nakba. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

Also, who's denying the genocide of the Native Americans? Is your argument that "well you people did it, so we can too?" Nonsense.

 

There is no denying the systemic plans engaged by Zionist colonists to remove Palestinians from Palestine before the start of WWII. Plenty of Israeli historians have acknowledge that simple fact. Even revisionists in Israel like Karsh and Gelber acknowledge the Nakba, but make excuses to shift the blame elsewhere. 

 

Lastly, I do not understand your tangent about the Islamic State. Most of the anti-Israeli regimes in the aftermath of Israel's founding were motivated by various interpretations of Arab Socialism or Pan-Arabism. Even those who were not at least were motivated by a desire to frame Israel's crimes against the Palestinians as part of the wider decolonization process occurring at the time worldwide. Given that many Palestinians were, you know, Christians, tyring to frame Palestinian resistance to Islamism (or lol ISIS) makes little sense. 

[Six of Ten]

The Holocaust does not justify the Nakba. In much the same way Germany's invasions of Eastern Europe doesn't justify the ethnic cleansing of German civilians in 1945. Or the pogroms against Jews in Arab countries is not justified because of the Nakba. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

Also, who's denying the genocide of the Native Americans? Is your argument that "well you people did it, so we can too?" Nonsense.

 

There is no denying the systemic plans engaged by Zionist colonists to remove Palestinians from Palestine before the start of WWII. Plenty of Israeli historians have acknowledge that simple fact. Even revisionists in Israel like Karsh and Gelber acknowledge the Nakba, but make excuses to shift the blame elsewhere. 

 

Lastly, I do not understand your tangent about the Islamic State. Most of the anti-Israeli regimes in the aftermath of Israel's founding were motivated by various interpretations of Arab Socialism or Pan-Arabism. Even those who were not at least were motivated by a desire to frame Israel's crimes against the Palestinians as part of the wider decolonization process occurring at the time worldwide. Given that many Palestinians were, you know, Christians, tyring to frame Palestinian resistance to Islamism (or lol ISIS) makes little sense. 

whoa there bro. before Rome, it's Israel/Judah, Rome falls apart Palestine is handed to Byzantium, ottomans smack Byzantine empire around some, Palestine is handed to the ottoman empire, Allenby defeats sanders in the battle of megiddo, Palestine is conquered by Great Brittain, after ww2 England, well the UN too splits the mandate into 2 nations, Israel and Palestine, BOTH times it was free of occupation is was Israel. there was never a sovereign nation named Palestine. Palestine was always somebody's state. Palestine has only been a nation since 1947. Israel has existed off and on for 4,000 years. (I support israel btw) and yes I'm Christian so I feel it my duty to support israel. 

Before and during world war 2, Palestine was under British colonial rule. therefore anything during world war 2 on back to 1917 is the fault of England, not Israel. atleast put blame where it's due. 

Edited March 8, 2015 by Six of Ten

[Fox Fire]

whoa there bro. before Rome, it's Israel/Judah, Rome falls apart Palestine is handed to Byzantium, ottomans smack Byzantine empire around some, Palestine is handed to the ottoman empire, Allenby defeats sanders in the battle of megiddo, Palestine is conquered by Great Brittain, after ww2 England, well the UN too splits the mandate into 2 nations, Israel and Palestine, BOTH times it was free of occupation is was Israel. there was never a sovereign nation named Palestine. Palestine was always somebody's state. Palestine has only been a nation since 1947. Israel has existed off and on for 4,000 years. (I support israel btw) and yes I'm Christian so I feel it my duty to support israel. 

Before and during world war 2, Palestine was under British colonial rule. therefore anything during world war 2 on back to 1917 is the fault of England, not Israel. atleast put blame where it's due. 

And before Israel, it was inhabited by Canaanites, until the Jews were exiled from Egypt, went to modern Palastine and massacred every human and animal in the region. THEN it became Israel, the "holy land".

You support Israel because you're a Christian? That's stupid. Zionism is the equivalent of Nazism.

And you can't blame Britain for all of that, when it was Jews who committed the acts. That's like accusing Obama of Sandy Hook. Granted, Britain shares a lot of blame for the existence of Israel and this whole shit heap of a mess to begin with, yes.

[Diocletian]

whoa there bro. before Rome, it's Israel/Judah, Rome falls apart Palestine is handed to Byzantium, ottomans smack Byzantine empire around some, Palestine is handed to the ottoman empire, Allenby defeats sanders in the battle of megiddo, Palestine is conquered by Great Brittain, after ww2 England, well the UN too splits the mandate into 2 nations, Israel and Palestine, BOTH times it was free of occupation is was Israel. there was never a sovereign nation named Palestine. Palestine was always somebody's state. Palestine has only been a nation since 1947. Israel has existed off and on for 4,000 years. (I support israel btw) and yes I'm Christian so I feel it my duty to support israel. 

Before and during world war 2, Palestine was under British colonial rule. therefore anything during world war 2 on back to 1917 is the fault of England, not Israel. atleast put blame where it's due. 

 

Nevermind the fact that the "holy land" in fact originally belonged to cavemen, but in more "modern antiquity" it was owned by the ancient Phoenicians/Canaanites. Israelites of ancient times never had their own sovereign land. You're correct on stating there never being a land called "Palestine" up until 1947, they were in fact known then as Arabs. Your attempts at legitimacizing either nation in antiquity is rather shallow. Israel has far less of a legitimate claim than any Arab nation to current day Israel (Syria, Jordan and even Egypt particularly). 

[Belisarius]

whoa there bro. before Rome, it's Israel/Judah, Rome falls apart Palestine is handed to Byzantium, ottomans smack Byzantine empire around some, Palestine is handed to the ottoman empire, Allenby defeats sanders in the battle of megiddo, Palestine is conquered by Great Brittain, after ww2 England, well the UN too splits the mandate into 2 nations, Israel and Palestine, BOTH times it was free of occupation is was Israel. there was never a sovereign nation named Palestine. Palestine was always somebody's state. Palestine has only been a nation since 1947. Israel has existed off and on for 4,000 years. (I support israel btw) and yes I'm Christian so I feel it my duty to support israel. 

Before and during world war 2, Palestine was under British colonial rule. therefore anything during world war 2 on back to 1917 is the fault of England, not Israel. atleast put blame where it's due. 

 

If you want to be pedantic about it, the reality of the region's geopolitical position is as follows:

 

Egyptian > Israel > Israel/Judah > Assyrian > Babylonian > Achaemid Persia > Alexander's Empire > Selucids > Ptolemy's > Selucids > Independing Judea under the Hasmoneans > Conquest of Judea and the Decapolis under Ptolemy (Rome) > Annexation of Judea by Rome after Herod's death (Augustus) > Rome > Revolt of 70 AD > Rome > Kitos War > Rome > Bar Kokhba Revolt > Rome > Palmyrene Empire > Rome under Aurelian > Partition under Diocletian > Constantine > Theodosius > Byzantines > Samaritan Revolt > Byzantines > Sassanids > Byzantines under Heraclius > the Rashidun Caliphate under Umar > The Umayyads > the Abbasids > the Fatimids > the Seljuk Empire > the Ayyubids > the Mamluks > the Ottomans > Muhammad Ali's Empire > Ottomans > the Hashemites > British because !@#$ the Arabs > simmering warfare between Palestinians and Zionist settlers > current situation.

 

No doubt I missed a lot there. But to say that it was "always" Israel's makes no sense. The native Palestinian inhabitants were the same as those 2000 years ago. The genetic studies prove that. They are the indigenous people of the land, and their shift away from Aramaic to Arabic, or from Judaism/Samaritanism/Christianity to Islam doesn't change that. You can say that the history of the region invalidates the ownership of the land from the Palestinians and then ignore that argument to say it "belongs" to Israel. The movement to establish a Zionist state in Palestine was not spearheaded by Palestinian Jews, but by European migrants who wanted to exterminate the native inhabitants of the land.

 

At no point do you deny that the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians happened. You instead try to sidestep that and make excuses. Either accept it and embrace it, or acknowledge it. Don't dance around that issue.

 

That being said, how can you, as a Christian, support the destruction of the Christian community of Palestine at the hands of the Israelis? How many Christian churches has Hamas destroyed versus that of Israel? How many Christian communities have been bulldozed and removed by the Israelis? Many. 

 

There is nothing Christian about supporting the occupation of Palestinian lands. I don't know where you get off saying that.

[Six of Ten]

If you want to be pedantic about it, the reality of the region's geopolitical position is as follows:

 

Egyptian > Israel > Israel/Judah > Assyrian > Babylonian > Achaemid Persia > Alexander's Empire > Selucids > Ptolemy's > Selucids > Independing Judea under the Hasmoneans > Conquest of Judea and the Decapolis under Ptolemy (Rome) > Annexation of Judea by Rome after Herod's death (Augustus) > Rome > Revolt of 70 AD > Rome > Kitos War > Rome > Bar Kokhba Revolt > Rome > Palmyrene Empire > Rome under Aurelian > Partition under Diocletian > Constantine > Theodosius > Byzantines > Samaritan Revolt > Byzantines > Sassanids > Byzantines under Heraclius > the Rashidun Caliphate under Umar > The Umayyads > the Abbasids > the Fatimids > the Seljuk Empire > the Ayyubids > the Mamluks > the Ottomans > Muhammad Ali's Empire > Ottomans > the Hashemites > British because !@#$ the Arabs > simmering warfare between Palestinians and Zionist settlers > current situation.

 

No doubt I missed a lot there. But to say that it was "always" Israel's makes no sense. The native Palestinian inhabitants were the same as those 2000 years ago. The genetic studies prove that. They are the indigenous people of the land, and their shift away from Aramaic to Arabic, or from Judaism/Samaritanism/Christianity to Islam doesn't change that. You can say that the history of the region invalidates the ownership of the land from the Palestinians and then ignore that argument to say it "belongs" to Israel. The movement to establish a Zionist state in Palestine was not spearheaded by Palestinian Jews, but by European migrants who wanted to exterminate the native inhabitants of the land.

 

At no point do you deny that the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians happened. You instead try to sidestep that and make excuses. Either accept it and embrace it, or acknowledge it. Don't dance around that issue.

 

That being said, how can you, as a Christian, support the destruction of the Christian community of Palestine at the hands of the Israelis? How many Christian churches has Hamas destroyed versus that of Israel? How many Christian communities have been bulldozed and removed by the Israelis? Many. 

 

There is nothing Christian about supporting the occupation of Palestinian lands. I don't know where you get off saying that.

The bible man, Israel is the land of the Bible. I know as an Atheist you inherently hate religion (why you're espousing Islam in this case is beyond me) and it's conquest and dominion, ofcourse there was a genocide, it's how the game is played, put quite simply, to the victor goes the spoils. Israel won plain and simple. when the Anglo-Saxons invaded England there was a genocide there too. my own Ancestors that lived in North America for 60,000 years fell victim to a genocide. the British did a genocide in France, the Romans did a genocide in Carthage. it's how the game is played. part of colonization is removing the indeginous population, or in the case of Israel, a nation resurrecting has to exterminate the local resistence. like I said it's how conquests happen. it's !@#$ sick but that's how history has always been in wars. oh and BTW Belasaurius saying Genocide happens as a consequence of conquest wars, that isn't condoning genocide. genocides are terrible attrocities and should never be undertaken by any nation. I'm also saying look at what we had to do to Germany to stop a genocide. just sayin. 

Edited March 8, 2015 by Six of Ten