Global War 16 - War of the Spies

[Phoenyx]

The more I think about it, the more I think that something like "War of the Spies" might be a good title for this war. It would seem It started based entirely on what a few people said, mainly if not exclusively Sphinx and Boyce. It then got a boost from Ronny's statement regarding his/Grumpy's point of view. So that seems to be how things started and people are now entrenched in it and generally don't want to stop fighting.

 

However, it is my hope that we can at least look at these primary characters in this narrative and attempt to try to figure out what really happened. 

 

So, let's start with Partisan's CB- he brings up logs of Sphinx and Boyce talking and another log of Boyce talking to Vader. In the logs between Sphinx and Boyce, I find them to be ambiguous- as in, Sphinx may have just been talking about the plans that Swamp, TCW and HM were making to band together if Quack were to attack any of their spheres. Boyce's conversation with Vader, on the other hand, is definitely the most accusatory that I've seen, with Boyce going so far as to provide a tentative date as to when he believed these groups would attack Quack. What I don't yet know- what information did Boyce have to come to the conclusion that HM/TCW/Swamp were going to attack soon, tentatively by the beginning of December? So far, I've only seen his logs with Sphinx.

 

Then, later on in Partisan's DOC thread, we have Ronny apparently saying that HM had been approached by Swamp and he had agreed to possibly attack Quack, but only on the condition that Rose joined the war. However, it later turns out that Ronny hadn't actually spoken to anyone in Swamp about this- he had received information from a fellow HM leader. Upon sharing the log of this conversation with his fellow HM leader, I found that it only said that Swamp had wanted to "counter Quack's growth"- but what did this mean? It has been argued that this just meant to counter attack if Quack were to attack, but it has also been argued by Partisan that this meant they wanted to engage in a first strike. Because we don't know who this HM leader is, we are left to ponder. However, it's also worth noting that right after Ronny said this whole bit about his condition in entering into a conflict with Quack, he also said that after a week of hearing nothing, he considered the whole notion to attack Quack first to have fizzled out. 

 

Finally, there are the public words of Tyrion, leader of the Immortals, the largest Alliance in Swamp, has been adamant that he had never even heard of any plan to initiate a first strike on Quack. It would also seem that had he heard of this idea, he would have turned it down. Kaz, one of the leaders of TFP, the second largest Alliance in Swamp, has also said he had never heard of this idea and would have opposed it with every fibre of his being had it been brought up in the leadership council. At first, I thought that meant that the whole notion that anyone in Swamp was really considering this was probably bogus. However, after more conversations with others, I've come to the conclusion that it may have been possible that one or more of the other 5 Alliances in Swamp may have thought about the possibility. So that leads to the question- have the other 5 Alliances in Swamp similarly denied that they were ever contemplating attacking Quack? I don't know the answer there. Hopefully someone can clarify on that account.

[Artifex]

 

[Phoenyx]

2 minutes ago, Malleator said:

 

 

Alright, I put in my name suggestion there. But the main reason I created this thread was to talk about how this war started, not to suggest a name. 

[Shubham Sharma]

3 minutes ago, Malleator said:

 

 

[donsberger]

18 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

I found that it only said that Swamp had wanted to "counter Quack's growth"- but what did this mean? 

 

 

Clearly proves there was going to be a war cause if they don't war Quack, quack continues to grow. According to you either Swamp wanted permanent peace ( Quack could never do a war without a dogpile due to these secret M Treaties) or Swamp wanted to dogpile Quack. As without war Quack would just continue to grow internally which apparently is very scary.

[Broke]

Can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP POSTING?

 

Pretty pretty pleaseeeeeee with some sugar on top???? pleaaase?????

[BigMorf]

Why are you still posting this stuff? 

[SleepingNinja]

[Phoenyx]

38 minutes ago, donsberger said:

Clearly proves there was going to be a war cause if they don't war Quack, quack continues to grow. According to you either Swamp wanted permanent peace ( Quack could never do a war without a dogpile due to these secret M Treaties) or Swamp wanted to dogpile Quack. As without war Quack would just continue to grow internally which apparently is very scary.

We may have to agree to disagree on what "curbing Quack growth" means. I still think it was just a defensive measure as Swamp and others had begun to think that Quack was getting too big to deal with by any single sphere. If some of the smaller Alliances in Swamp had thought of doing more, it never got to Immortals' leader Tyrion or TFP leader Kaz. Tyrion explained the reasoning for the defensive paperless treaty they made with Rose/HM a week ago:

On 11/10/2020 at 2:09 PM, Lord Tyrion said:

You mention Swamp-Rose as if there was an actual MDP in place, there was/is not.  If Hedge had hit Rose or Swamp, the other would have stayed out.  Similarly, if Rose had hit Hedge or Swamp, the other would have stayed out.  These were not general MDP agreements.  The agreement in place was for a single purpose and that was to defend against Quack if Quack got aggressive.  Quack was literally about to dogpile HM and TCW, probably 3.6M score vs 1.5M score or whatever it was, so those fears weren't completely unfounded.  We've already gone back and forth with you saying you thought we were coming on the offensive and us saying we weren't, so it's dumb to keep arguing over that unless new facts come out.  But the point being, the only reason those agreements were in place was to defend against the exact scenario that played out.  There is not some overarching configuration that exists beyond the parties working together to defend against one deemed mutual threat.

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Broke said:

Can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP POSTING?

 

Pretty pretty pleaseeeeeee with some sugar on top???? pleaaase?????

What's the big deal? Is it so hard to just ignore a thread you don't like?

29 minutes ago, BigMorf said:

Why are you still posting this stuff? 

I think that there needs to be dialogue to end a war, so I'm doing my best to keep that dialogue going by posting my understanding of the war, its causes, possible lines of investigation to find out more on its origins and ideas on how to end it.

[The Titan]

Aight, listen bub, it's me again. We are serious about you shutting up, it's being extremely annoying on both sides of the war. In fact, what is said in most of these threads that you created, do not matter. You are literally repeating the same thing, over and over, and pushing Swamp's narrow minded agenda. You are in no place to contribute to the conclusion of this war, since, in the endgame, that falls to the top 5 (pre-war) alliance, like tCW,TI,Rose,T$ & TKR. As well as probably CoTL.

Please just stop spamming, we don't need your help, we don't want your help. 

8 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

What's the big deal? Is it so hard to just ignore a thread you don't like?

Yes, it really is, since these feeds echo across tons of Discord servers

9 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

I think that there needs to be dialogue to end a war, so I'm doing my best to keep that dialogue going by posting my understanding of the war, its causes, possible lines of investigation to find out more on its origins and ideas on how to end it.

Literally no one cares what you are saying here, you're just echoing what Swamp leaders are saying and absolutely denying any argument.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Lord Vader

[Sisyphus]

I will be starting a formal petition to all relevant parties to keep fighting until Phoenyx stops encouraging us to peace out.

[Phoenyx]

2 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Aight, listen bub, it's me again. We are serious about you shutting up, it's being extremely annoying on both sides of the war. In fact, what is said in most of these threads that you created, do not matter. You are literally repeating the same thing, over and over, and pushing Swamp's narrow minded agenda. You are in no place to contribute to the conclusion of this war, since, in the endgame, that falls to the top 5 (pre-war) alliance, like tCW,TI,Rose,T$ & TKR. As well as probably CoTL.

Please just stop spamming, we don't need your help, we don't want your help. 

Yes, it really is, since these feeds echo across tons of Discord servers

Literally no one cares what you are saying here, you're just echoing what Swamp leaders are saying and absolutely denying any argument.

 

If what I say really doesn't matter and no one cares, why are these feeds echoing across tons of Discord servers? I mean, granted, sometimes the bar in those places can be rather low, but I think I have a point.

 

As to the conclusion of the war, sure, the top 5 will have the final word. However, I think that trying to figure out why this war really started and what is true and what isn't can go a long way towards getting everyone to the table. 

 

Just now, Sisyphus said:

I will be starting a formal petition to all relevant parties to keep fighting until Phoenyx stops encouraging us to peace out.

Sigh -.-

[donsberger]

15 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

We may have to agree to disagree on what "curbing Quack growth" means. I still think it was just a defensive measure as Swamp and others had begun to think that Quack was getting too big to deal with by any single sphere. If some of the smaller Alliances in Swamp had thought of doing more, it never got to Immortals' leader Tyrion or TFP leader Kaz. Tyrion explained the reasoning for the defensive paperless treaty they made with Rose/HM a week ago:

 

Except without war there is no way to curb Quack growth. 

 

Like I realize its clear you can't put 2 and 2 together and you would believe a random on the street if they told you to your face rather than someone with recognition saying something on a broadcast cause to you face to face is more important that any other method but still.

Edited November 17, 2020 by donsberger

[Phoenyx]

2 minutes ago, donsberger said:

Except without war there is no way to curb Quack growth. 

You may be right on that. However, something to consider- is this war worth continuing just because some HM Leader said that Swamp wanted to do this? War of the Spies indeed. I mean, we don't even know which HM leader this was, let alone whether he was the one who spoke to someone in Swamp or whether he actually heard it from someone else. The more I think about it, the more I think this is the classic tale of making a mountain out of a molehill. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Phoenyx

[The Titan]

2 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

If what I say really doesn't matter and no one cares, why are these feeds echoing across tons of Discord servers? I mean, granted, sometimes the bar in those places can be rather low, but I think I have a point.

 

Because it's automated, lol. It's not people praising you, there are literally bots that follow every new thread.

2 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

As to the conclusion of the war, sure, the top 5 will have the final word. However, I think that trying to figure out why this war really started and what is true and what isn't can go a long way towards getting everyone to the table. 

We already know why this war started, Quack saw a threat and acted upon it. There is no changing it, there is no disputing it. The hundreds of nukes prove that. Your discussions regarding the start of the war are repetitive. If anything, you should limit it to one thread instead of making five or six threads that are literally discussing the same thing.

[donsberger]

1 minute ago, Phoenyx said:

You may be right on that. However, something to consider- is this war worth continuing just because some HM Leader said that Swamp wanted to do this? War of the Spies indeed. I mean, we don't even know which HM leader this was, let alone whether he was the one who spoke to someone in Swamp or whether he actually heard it from someone else. The more I think about it, the more I think this is the classic tale of making a mountain out of a molehill. 

Its either make a mountain now or make a mountain later we decided to make one now so tourists could enjoy it earlier.

[The Titan]

1 minute ago, Phoenyx said:

You may be right on that. However, something to consider- is this war worth continuing just because some HM Leader said that Swamp wanted to do this?

We want to continue the war, as long as we want to continue the war. It's a simple as that. Once both sides are done, it's over. But right now one side is trying to prove a point whilst the other is just enjoying themselves.

[Phoenyx]

2 minutes ago, donsberger said:

Its either make a mountain now or make a mountain later we decided to make one now so tourists could enjoy it earlier.

Lol :-p. Alright, but like, consider what a small thing this started as, might it not be time to call it a day? I mean, it's been a global war for 2 weeks now? Surely that is enough for what might have just been a little idle chatter amoung some HM and lower level Swamp leaders?

2 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

We want to continue the war, as long as we want to continue the war. It's a simple as that. Once both sides are done, it's over. But right now one side is trying to prove a point whilst the other is just enjoying themselves.

 

Doesn't that say something right there? Like perhaps that one side is more aggressive and the other more defensive and so actively looking for ways to end the war?

Edited November 17, 2020 by Phoenyx

[donsberger]

Just now, Phoenyx said:

Lol :-p. Alright, but like, consider what a small thing this started as, might it not be time to call it a day? I mean, it's been a global war for 2 weeks now? Surely that is enough for what might have just been a little idle chatter amoung some HM and lower level Swamp leaders?

Lol a 2 round war funny one. Go start a GPA or something and pretend to be neutral. The name of this game is politics and war.

[The Titan]

1 minute ago, Phoenyx said:

Lol :-p. Alright, but like, consider what a small thing this started as, might it not be time to call it a day? I mean, it's been a global war for 2 weeks now? Surely that is enough for what might have just been a little idle chatter amoung some HM and lower level Swamp leaders?

Erm, the last real Global was eight months, I think we can handle it.

[Phoenyx]

1 minute ago, donsberger said:

Lol a 2 round war funny one. Go start a GPA or something and pretend to be neutral. The name of this game is politics and war.

I fully agree, the name of the game is Politics and War, and we're clearly doing a lot of both. However, I think there's something to be said for trying to end wars that don't seem to have solid foundations for continuing them. 

[The Titan]

2 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Doesn't that say something right there? Like perhaps that one side is more aggressive and the other more defensive and looking for reasons to end the war?

You're acting like war is a bad thing, tbh. We may be loosing but we sure are enjoying it. What's wrong with that?
And perhaps one side is more aggressive, but have you considered that the aggressor on paper may not be the aggressor in reality?

[donsberger]

Just now, Phoenyx said:

I fully agree, the name of the game is Politics and War, and we're clearly doing a lot of both. However, I think there's something to be said for trying to end wars that don't seem to have solid foundations for continuing them. 

We think they have very solid foundations as evidenced by multiple items. The fact you don't believe said evidence reiterates my point that you trust whatever someone says to your face without any evidence.

[Phoenyx]

1 minute ago, Lord Vader said:

Erm, the last real Global was eight months, I think we can handle it.

Oh, to be sure. The real question is, might it be a good idea to try to start trying to work on ending it? I think this is a question that everyone in this war might want to ask themselves. 

[The Titan]

Just now, Phoenyx said:

Oh, to be sure. The real question is, might it be a good idea to try to start trying to work on ending it? I think this is a question that everyone in this war might want to ask themselves. 

No, it's not worth it.