What is the good and evil of religion?

[Andrezj Kolarov]

The only purpose in life is the one each of us choose.

I disagree, this isn't the middle-ages, too many people have died in ignorance, knowledge should be the purpose of life. This is why we have compulsory education.

[Spite]

Islam is just Christianity and Judaism through the mind of someone with no formal education in either.

 

As for all that bullocks Abu rambles on about, I'd take it with a pinch of salt. Most people are extremist when they're his age. I remember I had pictures of Che and Lenin and stuff when I was 13/14, but I grew up into a functional member of society. I guess for a Muslim the temptation is to go all hardcore muslim, especially when you have an identity crisis. I'm guessing by the time he gets to 18/19 he'll be looking back on these posts and cringing a bit.

 

As a srs response to what was said, the locked house argument doesn't relate to the rape argument at all. A woman isn't something that needs to be locked up (like property). A woman is a person. If you switch the word woman for person the difference becomes clear (it's sad that you have to do this, but due to objectification and so on you do).

 

A person walking through a busy city should not fear rape or attack. A person wearing shorts and a t-shirt or other "revealing" clothes should not fear rape. People walking around on their own should not fear assault or rape.

 

In civilised Western countries we have the rule of law, human decency, and equality of the sexes. The solution to a problem with rape is not to remove women from danger by taking away their equality and humanity, it is to remove the rapists, and eradicate the culture that breeds them. Namely the culture where the woman is somehow at fault.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

Islam is just Christianity and Judaism through the mind of someone with no formal education in either.

 

As for all that bullocks Abu rambles on about, I'd take it with a pinch of salt. Most people are extremist when they're his age. I remember I had pictures of Che and Lenin and stuff when I was 13/14, but I grew up into a functional member of society.

Please don't associate Islamism with socialism. Have you even read Das Capital? Did you understand it?

[Spite]

Please don't associate Islamism with socialism. Have you even read Das Capital? Did you understand it?

I do have a degree in political theory, so as far as anyone can understand such a text I'd say i do. However when I was thirteen I didn't care about the intellectual merits of communism, just that it was flashy and exciting and revolutionary. Radical islam is appealing to young people for the same reason. And fascism for that matter.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

I do have a degree in political theory, so as far as anyone can understand such a text I'd say i do. However when I was thirteen I didn't care about the intellectual merits of communism, just that it was flashy and exciting and revolutionary. Radical islam is appealing to young people for the same reason. And fascism for that matter.

Fair enough.

[Spite]

Fair enough.

Also, I'm not sure if your comments that women should all be home makers in the other thread was genuine or just rp, but that is very un-Marxist.

 

I suggest reading "origin of the family, private property and the state", by Engels, where he explains at length that the capitalist system is designed to allocate reproductive (ie household) labour to women, in effect reducing their access to productive (paid) labour and therefore entrenching the capitalist system further. The workforce is therefore supported by a supply of free labour, increasing profits etc.

 

Anyway, the struggle for sexual equality is very closely linked to the struggle for class equality and that was recognised by Marx and Engels from the start.

[EliteCanada]

@Moreau III

 

Valid enough points of contention. I respect those thoughts and how you articulated them (rationally, well and w/o the generic use of insults for those who may not agree with you (as some are apt to do)), but not running on a lot of sleep atm (so not going to respond to it yet or here), and that line of discussion was getting pretty lengthy and involved pretty long walls of text that were starting to get out of context to the OP and only promised to get longer. However, if you like we can continue this discussion in PMs. 

 

Islam is just Christianity and Judaism through the mind of someone with no formal education in either.

 

Jesus that generalization. Going to have to call you out on that one (even w/o researching the facts).

 

 

I guess for a Muslim the temptation is to go all hardcore muslim, especially when you have an identity crisis. 

 

Damn these generalizations though. Going to have to call you out on that one as well.

 

As for all that bullocks Abu rambles on about, I'd take it with a pinch of salt. Most people are extremist when they're his age. I remember I had pictures of Che and Lenin and stuff when I was 13/14, but I grew up into a functional member of society. I guess for a Muslim the temptation is to go all hardcore muslim, especially when you have an identity crisis. I'm guessing by the time he gets to 18/19 he'll be looking back on these posts and cringing a bit.

 

 

Besides the part about Muslims I would agree with the rest, and all things should be taken with a grain of salt not just what Abu says. Interesting I was also into communism, likely for the reasons you mentioned in your second post, and shit like that when I was younger, but have grown from such naiveties and cringe back to some of my earlier ideologies. 

 

As a srs response to what was said, the locked house argument doesn't relate to the rape argument at all. A woman isn't something that needs to be locked up (like property). A woman is a person. If you switch the word woman for person the difference becomes clear (it's sad that you have to do this, but due to objectification and so on you do).

A person walking through a busy city should not fear rape or attack. A person wearing shorts and a t-shirt or other "revealing" clothes should not fear rape. People walking around on their own should not fear assault or rape.

 

It does relate to the rape argument as sad as that is. It shouldn't, but in some places in the world (I believe the specific occurrence of the rape that was mentioned was in Saudi Arabia maybe?) it is an apt comparison. A sad time indeed when that is the truth. Besides that I would completely agree. Women are indeed people and should be able to wear as they please and the concept of "revealing" clothing and all that implies is sad.

 

In civilised Western countries we have the rule of law, human decency, and equality of the sexes. The solution to a problem with rape is not to remove women from danger by taking away their equality and humanity, it is to remove the rapists, and eradicate the culture that breeds them. Namely the culture where the woman is somehow at fault.

 

 

 

We have the concepts of those things, wouldn't go as far to say that they are achieved. I would agree with the second part however.

 

Alas in a world of hate, greed, lust and sexism the "advice" of Abu, for some women, in some states, neighbourhoods and areas is legitimate as much as you wish it to be otherwise.

 

 

The second that someone defends religion by saying "Well God probably doesn't exist, but religion is a good way to unite the people" you know something is wrong. As if reality can be reduced to the level of a video game like Civilization where Islam gives +2% effectiveness to soldiers in battle but increases social instability 5%. Isn't the purpose of existence to chase the truth?

 

Ever heard of the saying as religion as the opium of the masses? That's a valid enough concept and it defends religion with essentially that saying. 

 

And the purpose of existence is w/e you make it out to be, whether it be hedonism, utilitarianism, religion, or even searching for the truth. 

 

Edit: Also your quote came out weird. Not sure why.

Edited March 29, 2016 by EliteCanada

[Spite]

It's not a generalisation, it's a trite observance. Christianity and Judaism were both present in the Arabian peninsula in bastardised forms in the period that Muhammad was active. Assuming Allah didn't actually dictate the Quran to him (which is a possibility I suppose) the enormous amount of references to Jewish and Christian mythology, history, culture and ethics suggests that Muhammad learned these from another human, before putting his spin on it. Unfortunately he was illiterate and had no religious tutelage, so his understanding was pretty basic.

 

With regards to radicalisation, I think that as I said it is something that always happens to young people. Revolutionaries the world over are usually young, or at least the cannon fodder is. The majority of islamists fighting in Syria are under 25 by all accounts. I'm not saying that all radical muslim youth choose islamism as their outlet (I knew a couple commie types myself), but it's certainly a trend. Which is what we call a generalisation when we want to sound smart.

[EliteCanada]

It's not a generalisation, it's a trite observance. Christianity and Judaism were both present in the Arabian peninsula in bastardised forms in the period that Muhammad was active. Assuming Allah didn't actually dictate the Quran to him (which is a possibility I suppose) the enormous amount of references to Jewish and Christian mythology, history, culture and ethics suggests that Muhammad learned these from another human, before putting his spin on it. Unfortunately he was illiterate and had no religious tutelage, so his understanding was pretty basic.

 

With regards to radicalisation, I think that as I said it is something that always happens to young people. Revolutionaries the world over are usually young, or at least the cannon fodder is. The majority of islamists fighting in Syria are under 25 by all accounts. I'm not saying that all radical muslim youth choose islamism as their outlet (I knew a couple commie types myself), but it's certainly a trend. Which is what we call a generalisation when we want to sound smart.

 

Oh, were you talking about the foundation of the religion of Islam? I thought you were referring to all present day Muslims as favouring the Islamic belief due to being uneducated. My mistake. 

 

With regards to radicalization I would fully agree that it [almost] always happens to young people, but I wouldn't say that for young Muslims the temptation for radicalization is specifically towards radicalizing towards religion, but instead perhaps countless other directions. I disagree as to the direction of the radicalization, not the radicalization in and of itself. I have no figures on this, but I doubt the direction is mostly towards religion. It could equally be towards state, or other beliefs (even if rooted in religion ut isn't necessarily to be an Islamic extremist). It would be nice to see some figures on the actual trend in Islamic states in regards to actual population of youth to those in extremist groups. Would be the only way to know for sure I suppose if there is actually a trend towards religious extremist radical groups. Even then confounding factors such as nationalism would need to be taken into account.

 

Edit: Revolutionaries may also be fighting for nation and family, not just religion. They could have had family killed as a cause of the west (in their belief anyhow), or may believe that what they do aids their Islamic state. May have naught to do with religion. I would contend that the trend isn't one of religion, but one with other origins.

Edited March 29, 2016 by EliteCanada

[Rozalia]

I do have a degree in political theory, so as far as anyone can understand such a text I'd say i do. However when I was thirteen I didn't care about the intellectual merits of communism, just that it was flashy and exciting and revolutionary. Radical islam is appealing to young people for the same reason. And fascism for that matter.

 

I never had such a thing when I was growing up. My first instance of attaching myself to a significant level was I think George Galloway's anti war stance which isn't an ideology by any means. Never "grew up" from opposing war though and happy for it. 

[EliteCanada]

I never had such a thing when I was growing up.

 

lol, can you really be the judge of that? Don't you think you may be a little biased, or at least too close, to the matter to actually determine if that is so.

Edited March 29, 2016 by EliteCanada

[Spite]

Oh, were you talking about the foundation of the religion of Islam? I thought you were referring to all present day Muslims as favouring the Islamic belief due to being uneducated. My mistake. 

 

With regards to radicalization I would fully agree that it [almost] always happens to young people, but I wouldn't say that for young Muslims the temptation for radicalization is specifically towards radicalizing towards religion, but instead perhaps countless other directions. I disagree as to the direction of the radicalization, not the radicalization in and of itself. I have no figures on this, but I doubt the direction is mostly towards religion. It could equally be towards state, or other beliefs (even if rooted in religion ut isn't necessarily to be an Islamic extremist). It would be nice to see some figures on the actual trend in Islamic states in regards to actual population of youth to those in extremist groups. Would be the only way to know for sure I suppose if there is actually a trend towards religious extremist radical groups. Even then confounding factors such as nationalism would need to be taken into account.

 

Edit: Revolutionaries may also be fighting for nation and family, not just religion. They could have had family killed as a cause of the west (in their belief anyhow), or may believe that what they do aids their Islamic state. May have naught to do with religion. I would contend that the trend isn't one of religion, but one with other origins.

 

I was talking more about muslim youth in non-muslim countries. However if you look at the Arab spring as an example, I think it's clear that radical islamic groups (of various sorts) have attracted a lot more support than socialist groups or other radicals. The only muslim nation where socialist radicals are a significant factor is amongst the Kurds.

 

I never had such a thing when I was growing up. My first instance of attaching myself to a significant level was I think George Galloway's anti war stance which isn't an ideology by any means. Never "grew up" from opposing war though and happy for it. 

 

Maybe you're going through this phase a little later than some I remember a lot of angry Tory kids shouting "Enoch was right"... it's two sides of the same coin politically. Extremism is something people go to when they feel that the current system (whatever it may be) has failed. Although people from a wide variety of backgrounds experience that feeling, in the West where most people have (relatively) good lives it is usually angry teens.

[SoS]

I disagree, this isn't the middle-ages, too many people have died in ignorance, knowledge should be the purpose of life. This is why we have compulsory education.

The truth is empty and unsatisfying. If you feel otherwise it's because the truth for you is important to some -ism; probably a form of humanism.

 

Education is used to indoctrinate us to society and to prepare us to work our lives away. Few people find the truth through that education. The truth certainly isn't the purpose or normal product of compulsory education.

 

Life has no purpose. Knowledge is useful, but nothinges more than a purpose a few choose.

[Rozalia]

lol, can you really be the judge of that? Don't you think you may be a little biased, or at least too close, to the matter to actually determine if that is so.

 

No, I didn't go through a period where I felt Communism or whatever else was the best ever and then move away from it. The only such change I've had was in my youth I believed the Socialists and Liberals could be more, rational perhaps, than the Conservatives. Over time I came to see that Conservatives, who have had their ideology hijacked to a degree like Socialists have, can be far more rational on many issues. 

 

Maybe you're going through this phase a little later than some I remember a lot of angry Tory kids shouting "Enoch was right"... it's two sides of the same coin politically. Extremism is something people go to when they feel that the current system (whatever it may be) has failed. Although people from a wide variety of backgrounds experience that feeling, in the West where most people have (relatively) good lives it is usually angry teens.

 

Such disparaging remarks are common but I feel yours flies against reality, perhaps some years back you could put it in that manner. The current brand you'd attack are if age is brought up said to be old, not young. Reality is they're a diverse group of people, some poor, some rich, some young, some old, some in the middle. However the narrative is a bunch of old white dudes are driving it and poor white dudes are all racists so <insert other insults against the poor>.

 

Now when the young is listed it's actually on the other end. They attack the people who feel the system is wong and bombard them with simply absurd attacks, feeling that we can all childishly get along in some perfect world full of safe spaces or whatever it is they want. 

 

I am a product of experiences, most easily seen with your efforts to put me in a box for one. I'm a Nationalist so you think militaristic, but one of my first forming "experiences" developed my anti war stance. I didn't just pick an ideology off a list and go "Yeah I'll go with that". I may perhaps develop further, as may you. Nothing wrong or strange with that.

[Andrezj Kolarov]

Also, I'm not sure if your comments that women should all be home makers in the other thread was genuine or just rp, but that is very un-Marxist.

 

I suggest reading "origin of the family, private property and the state", by Engels, where he explains at length that the capitalist system is designed to allocate reproductive (ie household) labour to women, in effect reducing their access to productive (paid) labour and therefore entrenching the capitalist system further. The workforce is therefore supported by a supply of free labour, increasing profits etc.

 

Anyway, the struggle for sexual equality is very closely linked to the struggle for class equality and that was recognised by Marx and Engels from the start.

It's RP yeah, but I'm referring to a hypothetical socialist state where capitalism has been abolished, so said women would be getting paid the same wages as men when they're home makers/mothers as it's recognized as a job like any other.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Andrezj Kolarov

[Moreau]

@Moreau III

 

Valid enough points of contention. I respect those thoughts and how you articulated them (rationally, well and w/o the generic use of insults for those who may not agree with you (as some are apt to do)), but not running on a lot of sleep atm (so not going to respond to it yet or here), and that line of discussion was getting pretty lengthy and involved pretty long walls of text that were starting to get out of context to the OP and only promised to get longer. However, if you like we can continue this discussion in PMs. 

 

Thanks, I'm running low on sleep as well at the moment  but would love to continue this in PM's whenever you're up for it.

[Spite]

No, I didn't go through a period where I felt Communism or whatever else was the best ever and then move away from it. The only such change I've had was in my youth I believed the Socialists and Liberals could be more, rational perhaps, than the Conservatives. Over time I came to see that Conservatives, who have had their ideology hijacked to a degree like Socialists have, can be far more rational on many issues.

 

 

Such disparaging remarks are common but I feel yours flies against reality, perhaps some years back you could put it in that manner. The current brand you'd attack are if age is brought up said to be old, not young. Reality is they're a diverse group of people, some poor, some rich, some young, some old, some in the middle. However the narrative is a bunch of old white dudes are driving it and poor white dudes are all racists so <insert other insults against the poor>.

 

Now when the young is listed it's actually on the other end. They attack the people who feel the system is wong and bombard them with simply absurd attacks, feeling that we can all childishly get along in some perfect world full of safe spaces or whatever it is they want.

 

I am a product of experiences, most easily seen with your efforts to put me in a box for one. I'm a Nationalist so you think militaristic, but one of my first forming "experiences" developed my anti war stance. I didn't just pick an ideology off a list and go "Yeah I'll go with that". I may perhaps develop further, as may you. Nothing wrong or strange with that.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. It doesn't seem like you're responding to my post at all.

[Rozalia]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. It doesn't seem like you're responding to my post at all.

 

Maybe you're going through this phase a little later than some I remember a lot of angry Tory kids shouting "Enoch was right"... it's two sides of the same coin politically. Extremism is something people go to when they feel that the current system (whatever it may be) has failed. Although people from a wide variety of backgrounds experience that feeling, in the West where most people have (relatively) good lives it is usually angry teens.

 

Such disparaging remarks are common but I feel yours flies against reality, perhaps some years back you could put it in that manner. The current brand you'd attack are if age is brought up said to be old, not young. Reality is they're a diverse group of people, some poor, some rich, some young, some old, some in the middle. However the narrative is a bunch of old white dudes are driving it and poor white dudes are all racists so <insert other insults against the poor>.

 

Now when the young is listed it's actually on the other end. They attack the people who feel the system is wong and bombard them with simply absurd attacks, feeling that we can all childishly get along in some perfect world full of safe spaces or whatever it is they want. 

 

I am a product of experiences, most easily seen with your efforts to put me in a box for one. I'm a Nationalist so you think militaristic, but one of my first forming "experiences" developed my anti war stance. I didn't just pick an ideology off a list and go "Yeah I'll go with that". I may perhaps develop further, as may you. Nothing wrong or strange with that.

 

That isn't to say the rest isn't relevant but it is quite clear to what I was responding to. The "if you disagree with me you'll eventually grow out of it" brand is not exactly obscure, so I responded that in actual fact it's currently very much the opposite. The people you're trying to paint with that are older, the people attacking said older folk are the younger folk.

 

The bit about product of experiences is I know what you're implying and it isn't the case, I formed my views as I went through life. I didn't attach myself to some big blob and then gradually discard bits as I went along.

 

Now as for your Muslim bit, that may perhaps be true in some cases but not all and we shouldn't be taking chances by shielding them from criticism. Many turned lunatics are older men also though obviously the place for the oldest of the bunch is in Europe getting more recruits. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by Rozalia

[Spite]

The old Paris attacker was 31, and most of the people involved were younger. The London attacks had two teenagers involved.

 

Extremism is something which is mostly attractive to the young, for a number of reasons. Lack of education, the fact they're easily influenced, their feeling of invincibility or always being right, and a general anger at the system. It's something they mostly grow out of as they get older, because those contributory factors change them. As such the profile of the older extremist is different to that of the teenage extremist. Though they still tend to be uneducated and often unemployed or in low level work.

 

If you're complaining because I said being a fascist or communist or islamist is childish, then get over it. I'm sure that there are many older people who hold those views, but for the most part extremism is a young person's game.

[Rozalia]

The old Paris attacker was 31, and most of the people involved were younger. The London attacks had two teenagers involved.

 

Extremism is something which is mostly attractive to the young, for a number of reasons. Lack of education, the fact they're easily influenced, their feeling of invincibility or always being right, and a general anger at the system. It's something they mostly grow out of as they get older, because those contributory factors change them. As such the profile of the older extremist is different to that of the teenage extremist. Though they still tend to be uneducated and often unemployed or in low level work.

 

If you're complaining because I said being a fascist or communist or islamist is childish, then get over it. I'm sure that there are many older people who hold those views, but for the most part extremism is a young person's game.

 

No, I told you that such "extremism" is happening across the board, not simply in the young, not even the majority in the young. In America for one the current wave for the young is that "social justice" as they call it, while the older folks are are getting more Nationalistic and getting behind a guy like Trump. In Britain there is also a degree of that but it's not as noticeable. 

 

I'm not complaining about you saying that. I'm just saying I can recognise your attack on everyone in this thread who isn't a centre left globalist. Funnily enough that type of point is usually a straight right wing statement so in that context you're the child who'll grow up soon, but meh, I don't believe such stereotypes.  

[Spite]

No, I told you that such "extremism" is happening across the board, not simply in the young, not even the majority in the young. In America for one the current wave for the young is that "social justice" as they call it, while the older folks are are getting more Nationalistic and getting behind a guy like Trump. In Britain there is also a degree of that but it's not as noticeable.

 

I'm not complaining about you saying that. I'm just saying I can recognise your attack on everyone in this thread who isn't a centre left globalist. Funnily enough that type of point is usually a straight right wing statement so in that context you're the child who'll grow up soon, but meh, I don't believe such stereotypes.

There's a difference between radical and reactionary.

 

I will disagree with people who don't share my views of course. However I wouldn't call everyone who doesn't share them extremist. The vast majority of the population fit into the "centre ground" and though I might disagree with them I wouldn't say their views are extremist. You are trying to make yourself seem like you're part of the "normal" majority being persecuted by an "elitist" minority. In reality you are yourself part of a very small minority of people and have a very combatative viewpoint. As you've said before, you don't agree with any existing party. Politically, you're an outsider. You identify with radical political decisions, such as disenfranchisement of foreign born citizens, women being encouraged to be home owners, bestiality and polygamy being legalised, and many other points of view that are way outside the recognised norm for Western countries.

[EliteCanada]

I was talking more about muslim youth in non-muslim countries.

 

However if you look at the Arab spring as an example, I think it's clear that radical islamic groups (of various sorts) have attracted a lot more support than socialist groups or other radicals. The only muslim nation where socialist radicals are a significant factor is amongst the Kurds.

 

 

Oh, I see.

 

Yes they have, but is the reason actually religious? I think there may be some outside factors and influences at play even if it is a religious group. Even if the reason to join those radical groups is religious, would it be accurate to say that the majority of Muslim youth radicalize to that focal point? I'd think no. 

 

@Rozalia

 

@Spite

 

If one is saying that radicalism is across the board and the other is saying that it's mostly centred in the youth why not find a source to support that view? It seems like that would end the discussion with one clear winner.

[Spite]

Oh, I see.

 

Yes they have, but is the reason actually religious? I think there may be some outside factors and influences at play even if it is a religious group. Even if the reason to join those radical groups is religious, would it be accurate to say that the majority of Muslim youth radicalize to that focal point? I'd think no.

 

@Rozalia

 

@Spite

 

If one is saying that radicalism is across the board and the other is saying that it's mostly centred in the youth why not find a source to support that view? It seems like that would end the discussion with one clear winner.

As I said, I think in the West the identity crisis problem gives muslim youths something to rally around. They feel torn between being British and being "home country of parents". They feel in many cases isolated because of their differences with their peers, and therefore turn to other focal points for their identity. Islam is one of these - this is also why a lot of black youths in Britain convert to Islam (disproportionate numbers), because it gives a sense of identity. Considering we don't have sizeable communist movements and fascist movements (for obvious reasons) wouldn't want them, radical islam becomes attractive.

 

In my brief sojourn into student politics I noticed this trend amongst Islamic students who were politically active. Whilst many vocal people were socialist, many more were very Islamic (if not outright islamists).

 

On demographics of terrorists:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1

 

You can find the source document on torrent sites if you are interested. Most people become radicalised before the age of 25.

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

Arguments like this is why I am starting to turn evil...

[Moreau]

Arguments like this is why I am starting to turn evil...

 

But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it has [only] increased them in evil [in addition] to their evil. And they will have died while they are disbelievers. [9:125]