Religion The right Poll.

[Fox Fire]

I don't think you understood what I meant by "one by one/one at a time".

 

You can't seriously expect me to respond to everything at once?

Then don't. IDGAF.

[Dimitri Valko]

I don't think you understood what I meant by "one at a time".

 

You can't seriously expect me to respond to everything at once?

 

It looks like the site is written by islamophobic christians, by the end bit, so I don't think we need to bother on it.

[KeyStroke]

Judgement and justice are heavily emphasized in the Old Testament but grace and forgiveness are evident in it also (example, book of Jonah). Grace and forgiveness are more frequently seen in the New Testament. The violence due mankind was inflicted on the innocent Son of God instead of upon those who earned such punishment.

 

Indeed, it is the difference between the deity of the New Testament and the deity of the Q'ran that is quite stark.

 

It is very obvious. Just read the Gospels (plus Acts) and read the Q'ran. You would have to be deliberately ignorant to miss the differences between the two deities.

Edited November 4, 2015 by KeyStroke

[Peter Quill]

How so? They are all equally violent bigots if you ask me.

Keep on hatin'!

In my 14 years of existence, I have met thousands of people. As somebody who used to live in the Muslim part of my city, the Muslims I befriended were a far cry from from the Muslims south of my country or Ibrahim. They have never thought of killing people, much less condemn them for their gender/beliefs/etc. The Christian friends I have have never thought about quitting eating shellfish OR stoning adulterers. Oh wait, I'm also a Christian. 

So yeah, like I said, keep on hatin'!

Edited November 4, 2015 by Dylan Pascua

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

I mean if you want to look at things as a scientific view, the higher being is the Universe. As the Universe created everything we think, do, consume, and enjoy. As God did for us.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

I will respond to the 4 verses Fox Fire selected.

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

 

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

 

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". 

 

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward "

 

None of the verses you quoted advocate for unjust violence and there are no such verses that do in the entire Quran.

 

We are not denying the fact that Islam prescribes fighting for the sake of Allah (swt), but it's for just reasons as mention in the following verses:

 

And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" (Quran 4:75)

 

Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory. [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. (Quran 22:39-40)

 

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." (Quran 2:190)

 

And lastly to conclude:

 

“If you kill one person unjustly it is as if you killed the whole of humanity, and if you saved once person it is as if you saved the whole of humanity.†(Quran 5:32)

 

If we look at the quran holistically, as we should, the permission to fight is there but for just reasons.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

I am answering the question by saying it doesn't matter how I answer. Because to religious folk like yourself, any violence condoned or that you interpret to be condoned in the Quran, is just to you. It's not to me, because your God is bullshit. Your claim equally has no basis in fact because there is no empirical objective truth to your God, thus no objective truth to his will.

I could point out any particular violent act in any Abrahamic religion. For example:

 

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward "

 

But you can't justify any of this without using your own religion and God as the source of truth judgement. Unfortunately, there is no empirical objective truth about your God or any other.

Thus do I come back to my point that no matter what I say, you will justify it using your religion.

We can go as far back as we want, to even the Israelite's and their genocide in modern Palestine. In the end, you rely on your God to justify these acts.

I'm just gonna go off a limb here and say, Islam is a peaceful religion, and as said, fighting does not mean "Killing". Fighting could mean "Surviving" for all we know.

 

People that believe in ISIS though may have misportrayed that fighting equals killing. Which is why most of the west world think Islam is a terrorist religion.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Lysandre Mackintosh

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

I'm just gonna go off a limb here and say, Islam is a peaceful religion, and as said, fighting does not mean "Killing". Fighting could mean "Surviving" for all we know.

 

People that believe in ISIS though may have misportrayed that fighting equals killing. Which is why most of the west world think Islam is a terrorist religion.

 

No, fighting means fighting so killing is involved.

 

If someone was raping your mother in front of you, I am sure you would kill that person if you could, to protect the honour of your mother.

 

There are times when violence is justified and human life has to be taken.

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

No, fighting means fighting so killing is involved.

 

If someone was raping your mother in front of you, I am sure you would kill that person if you could, to protect the honour of your mother.

 

There are times when violence is justified and human life has to be taken.

#1 I was agreeing that fighting does not mean "Killing"

 

#2 I agree as well, but ISIS who kill people for the sake of attention is not right and is not ethical. Fighting to kill only goes to a certain point if you mother was being raped, yes. Killing for attention? no

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

#1 I was agreeing that fighting does not mean "Killing"

 

I understand, I was just explaining that that is what fighting usually involves.

 

#2 I agree as well, but ISIS who kill people for the sake of attention is not right and is not ethical. Fighting to kill only goes to a certain point if you mother was being raped, yes. Killing for attention? no

 

Well, let's remember that the killing of westerners only started after they were bombed by a Western/American led coalition so in there view it's eye for an eye. Maybe the countries doing the bombing should stop and see whether or not they kill one of their people, and then resume the bombing if they do. I personally doubt they would as their strategic vision has always been to try and establish their own state in the region.

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

I understand, I was just explaining that that is what fighting usually involves.

 

 

 

Well, let's remember that the killing of westerners only started after they were bombed by a Western/American led coalition so in there view it's eye for an eye. Maybe the countries doing the bombing should stop and see whether or not they kill one of their people, and then resume the bombing if they do. I personally doubt they would as their strategic vision has always been to try and establish their own state in the region.

Well, if Osama Bin Laden hadn't have ordered the attack on the twin towers and pentagon, the intervention wouldn't have happened.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Well, if Osama Bin Laden hadn't have ordered the attack on the twin towers and pentagon, the intervention wouldn't have happened.

 

Only thing is they're not affiliated to Al Qaeda and are in fact hostile to them.

[Spite]

Satanism is just worshipping an anti-authority figure. It's also worshipping someone whose sole purpose in Christian literature is to embody greed, lust and other "worldly" temptations and provide counterpoint to the self sacrifice ethic. Satanism fits into the same category as the new religions like scientology that don't owe their existence from existing theological tradition (like Hinduism, Buddhism, Abrahamic religions) or newer philosophical ideas coalescing (Sikhism, Baha'i etc). Most of the satanist "churches" that exist now we're created in the 60's though they've tried to make links to various dubious groups through history. And like I said, most of their followers are basically losers.

[Nadir Aminu]

Keep on hatin'!

In my 14 years of existence, I have met thousands of people. As somebody who used to live in the Muslim part of my city, the Muslims I befriended were a far cry from from the Muslims south of my country or Ibrahim. They have never thought of killing people, much less condemn them for their gender/beliefs/etc. The Christian friends I have have never thought about quitting eating shellfish OR stoning adulterers. Oh wait, I'm also a Christian.

So yeah, like I said, keep on hatin'!

This brings up great questions. Why do people think all religions hate every other religion? Why do people think that every person who is related to a religion believes everything their holy book says? Why do people think one specific religion holds all the bad people or crazy people?

[Fox Fire]

Judgement and justice are heavily emphasized in the Old Testament but grace and forgiveness are evident in it also (example, book of Jonah). Grace and forgiveness are more frequently seen in the New Testament. The violence due mankind was inflicted on the innocent Son of God instead of upon those who earned such punishment.

 

Indeed, it is the difference between the deity of the New Testament and the deity of the Q'ran that is quite stark.

 

It is very obvious. Just read the Gospels (plus Acts) and read the Q'ran. You would have to be deliberately ignorant to miss the differences between the two deities.

But I have and see little difference. The new testament is probably less violent, yes, but still shares the same overall characteristics.  

 

Keep on hatin'!

In my 14 years of existence, I have met thousands of people. As somebody who used to live in the Muslim part of my city, the Muslims I befriended were a far cry from from the Muslims south of my country or Ibrahim. They have never thought of killing people, much less condemn them for their gender/beliefs/etc. The Christian friends I have have never thought about quitting eating shellfish OR stoning adulterers. Oh wait, I'm also a Christian. 

So yeah, like I said, keep on hatin'!

Because Abrahamic followers generally tend to pick and choose what parts of their religion they follow. That doesn't change the books themselves.

 

 

I will respond to the 4 verses Fox Fire selected.

 

None of the verses you quoted advocate for unjust violence and there are no such verses that do in the entire Quran.

 

We are not denying the fact that Islam prescribes fighting for the sake of Allah (swt), but it's for just reasons as mention in the following verses:

 

And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" (Quran 4:75)

 

Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory. [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. (Quran 22:39-40)

 

"Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." (Quran 2:190)

 

And lastly to conclude:

 

“If you kill one person unjustly it is as if you killed the whole of humanity, and if you saved once person it is as if you saved the whole of humanity.†(Quran 5:32)

 

If we look at the quran holistically, as we should, the permission to fight is there but for just reasons.

Except it also advocates killing non-believers on countless occasions just because they don't believe. Like driving Meccans out of their own city. Which they did. It also advocates offensive warfare. Or maybe this strange story. The Quran also teaches punishing people for homosexuality and the Hadith says they should be executed. But it's no surprise you wouldn't mention any of that.

[Fox Fire]

Satanism is just worshipping an anti-authority figure. It's also worshipping someone whose sole purpose in Christian literature is to embody greed, lust and other "worldly" temptations and provide counterpoint to the self sacrifice ethic. Satanism fits into the same category as the new religions like scientology that don't owe their existence from existing theological tradition (like Hinduism, Buddhism, Abrahamic religions) or newer philosophical ideas coalescing (Sikhism, Baha'i etc). Most of the satanist "churches" that exist now we're created in the 60's though they've tried to make links to various dubious groups through history. And like I said, most of their followers are basically losers.

You don't know what Satanism is about...

[Licorice]

 

Only thing is they're not affiliated to Al Qaeda and are in fact hostile to them.

 

...Actually they were back then after US invaded Iraq , they just split up after awhile...

And they still occasionally cooperate with each other against the gov too.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Talerong

[Franz Von Dietrich]

...Actually they were back then after US invaded Iraq , they just split up after awhile...

And they still occasionally cooperate with each other against the gov too.

I can do an entire debate about how idiotic the invasion of Iraq was, but that's not generally the point of this topic.

 

Somehow, this simple question turned into an full-out debate in this forum.

 

I agree with Fox, as there is no way for sure knowing if God exists or not.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Except it also advocates killing non-believers on countless occasions just because they don't believe. Like driving Meccans out of their own city. Which they did. It also advocates offensive warfare.

 

Yet, unsurprisingly, you fail to provide any evidence to back up your claims.

 

1. The Muslims at the time of Prophet Muhammad (saw) actually fought in defence of non-believers who were allied to them.

 

2. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the the earliest Muslims were born and raised in Mecca but were forced to flee to Medina amidst persecution, killing, torture, and embargoes simply because they rejected paganism and adopted Islamic monotheism. 

 

3. Nobody was driven out of Mecca after it was recaptured by the Muslims: In fact the Muslims chose to not take revenge (highly unorthodox given Arab tribal culture at the time) for the years of brutal torture, killings, and persecution they endured under the hands of the pagan Meccans who wanted to turn them back from their new religion of Islam.

 

Or maybe this strange story.

 

Erm, what about it?

 

 

 

 

The Quran also teaches punishing people for homosexuality and the Hadith says they should be executed. But it's no surprise you wouldn't mention any of that.

 

Only if they are proven before a court that they've committed MSM and there have to be witnesses who saw them do it, so unless they are doing It in public for some reason or filming it or simply admit to it... the punishment can't be carried out. We also know today that the disease of HIV/AIDs (which attacks the human immune system) is primarily spread by MSM. You can also see the benefit of this law in that Saudi Arabia, who implement most of the Sharia, has the lowest HIV/AIDs rates in the world. The same law is also written in the Old testament but Christians don't take their religion seriously.

 

...Actually they were back then after US invaded Iraq , they just split up after awhile...

And they still occasionally cooperate with each other against the gov too.

 

When Obama re-invaded Iraq, I.S. were no longer affiliated with Al Qaeda, but were actually fighting them on the ground in Syria and there were deaths on both sides (as well as territorial gains for I.S.). They both see each other as enemies and don't cooperate at all.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Licorice]

 

When Obama re-invaded Iraq, I.S. were no longer affiliated with Al Qaeda, but were actually fighting them on the ground in Syria and there were deaths on both sides (as well as territorial gains for I.S.). They both see each other as enemies and don't cooperate at all.

Gonna need sources for this one since just September Al Qaeda flat out said that while they denouce ISIS legitimacy about the caliphate thing, there's still room for them to work together.

 

------------------------

 

Now then, completely on-topic.

 

I doubt there are any real gods out there and if there are then I won't respect any of them since they just keep watching us killing each other and to terrible @#$% in their name without even bother to make some sort of sign telling us to stop.

 

The only kind of "gods" that I believed ever existed is something like this

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Gonna need sources for this one since just September Al Qaeda flat out said that while they denouce ISIS legitimacy about the caliphate thing, there's still room for them to work together.

 

-snip-

 

http://www.newsweek.com/al-qaeda-vs-isis-battle-soul-jihad-317414

[Spite]

I get on quite well with Islam normally. Helps that I have an epic beard and an interest in theology.

[Rozalia]

Yet, unsurprisingly, you fail to provide any evidence to back up your claims.

 

1. The Muslims at the time of Prophet Muhammad (saw) actually fought in defence of non-believers who were allied to them.

 

2. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the the earliest Muslims were born and raised in Mecca but were forced to flee to Medina amidst persecution, killing, torture, and embargoes simply because they rejected paganism and adopted Islamic monotheism. 

 

3. Nobody was driven out of Mecca after it was recaptured by the Muslims: In fact the Muslims chose to not take revenge (highly unorthodox given Arab tribal culture at the time) for the years of brutal torture, killings, and persecution they endured under the hands of the pagan Meccans who wanted to turn them back from their new religion of Islam.

 

 

Erm, what about it?

 

 

 

 

 

Only if they are proven before a court that they've committed MSM and there have to be witnesses who saw them do it, so unless they are doing It in public for some reason or filming it or simply admit to it... the punishment can't be carried out. We also know today that the disease of HIV/AIDs (which attacks the human immune system) is primarily spread by MSM. You can also see the benefit of this law in that Saudi Arabia, who implement most of the Sharia, has the lowest HIV/AIDs rates in the world. The same law is also written in the Old testament but Christians don't take their religion seriously.

 

First off the always self defense nonsense involving Mecca is debunked right away. Battle of Badr being your constant reference but was actually a result of Muslim aggression, but in your fantasy world it happened the other way around. Then again this is the religion/culture that blames a raped women so blaming the attacked you are no stranger to I'm sure.

 

Secondly you have been told time and time again why the caveats you attach to homosexual's "crime" and your calls for deaths are pointless. I know it, everyone here knows it, and even you as ignorantly fanatical as you are know it. The accused are held either indefinitely or beaten until they "confess", that is if they bother with such things because your ISIS heroes sure don't. 

 

You going to respond? Nope. Why do you even "debate" if when proven wrong again and again you just decide to ignore it and repeat the same arguments again and again? By all means tell us your interpretation of God in your own words, no links, no youtube videos, and then say why you think that is the case over other interpretations. Then you might have something actually interesting to talk about, you are apparently a "student" of religious matters after all according to yourself. Otherwise stop making threads go in the same bloody direction every time. 

[Licorice]

Nothing in that article is even remotely close to AQ and IS shooting each other's skull out which is the definition of "hostile"

 

As far as I've seen, they are simply political enemy that both wishes to kill all infedels that are willing to ignore or even work with each other for Islamic domination of the region.

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

First off the always self defense nonsense involving Mecca is debunked right away. Battle of Badr being your constant reference but was actually a result of Muslim aggression, but in your fantasy world it happened the other way around. Then again this is the religion/culture that blames a raped women so blaming the attacked you are no stranger to I'm sure.

 

Secondly you have been told time and time again why the caveats you attach to homosexual's "crime" and your calls for deaths are pointless. I know it, everyone here knows it, and even you as ignorantly fanatical as you are know it. The accused are held either indefinitely or beaten until they "confess", that is if they bother with such things because your ISIS heroes sure don't. 

 

You going to respond? Nope. Why do you even "debate" if when proven wrong again and again you just decide to ignore it and repeat the same arguments again and again? By all means tell us your interpretation of God in your own words, no links, no youtube videos, and then say why you think that is the case over other interpretations. Then you might have something actually interesting to talk about, you are apparently a "student" of religious matters after all according to yourself. Otherwise stop making threads go in the same bloody direction every time.

 

Rosalia, this is absolutely absurd. Christians have done lots of agressive things under God. As have Jews, Muslims, etc, now that doesn't justify things, but I don't know why you're so intent on proving Ibrahim wrong. It's never gonna happen, religion is opinionated for everybody, and everybody believes in what they like. Now the "always" in self defense, ISIS may have enterprited that wrong, I don't know, but Christians say that you can kill in Self defense, so this is again opinion.