War commentary.

[TheNG]

Let him believe what he wants Phiney. No sense explaining our knowledge of the war system for free.

Sorry Jodo, but I've fought in just as many world wars as you have. But by all means, tell me what I'm missing. I would sincerely like to know if you could make ships useful in a situation like the one being discussed. Don't dismiss someone if you have nothing to back it up with.

[Phiney]

Sorry Jodo, but I've fought in just as many world wars as you have. But by all means, tell me what I'm missing. I would sincerely like to know if you could make ships useful in a situation like the one being discussed. Don't dismiss someone if you have nothing to back it up with.

Righto, let's take a specific example I am very aware of. I am diabolos. Two and a half weeks ago the market started to go a bit mental and I noticed this, everyone did. I have no ships, but I start to think about building AF and soldiers. I do this. I also just bought the missile project and build a couple of them along with plenty of spies. Just in case, Right? 3 days before this war began, I hear that it might kick off and at least one major alliance is involved. I decided to draw 12 mil from the bank and build a new city. Still no ships. I get !@#$ed In the war.

 

What could I have done better? For starters, as I built the AF I could have also built two drydocks worth of ships, hey I make 1.5 mil a day, pocket change. Then, I hear about a war definitely happening at some point, I buy another two drydocks, get 18 ships, which would take a minimum of 4 spy attacks to destroy if I had no spies at all. I can now defend myself if I am attacked, and won't be blockaded before I awake. I can also build 4 ships a day, regardless.

 

Edit: to further this, I could have quite easily spent that 12 mil buying every member in my alliance a drydock (like we did before the SI war) and made this war not just about lobbing missiles or doing !@#$ all (i.e. what the people without missiles did). 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Phiney

[Shellhound]

That advice is going to cost a solid 1M. 

[TheNG]

Righto, let's take a specific example I am very aware of. I am diabolos. Two and a half weeks ago the market started to go a bit mental and I noticed this, everyone did. I have no ships, but I start to think about building AF and soldiers. I do this. I also just bought the missile project and build a couple of them along with plenty of spies. Just in case, Right? 3 days before this war began, I hear that it might kick off and at least one major alliance is involved. I decided to draw 12 mil from the bank and build a new city. Still no ships. I get !@#$ed In the war.

 

What could I have done better? For starters, as I built the AF I could have also built two drydocks worth of ships, hey I make 1.5 mil a day, pocket change. Then, I hear about a war definitely happening at some point, I buy another two drydocks, get 18 ships, which would take a minimum of 4 spy attacks to destroy if I had no spies at all. I can now defend myself if I am attacked, and won't be blockaded before I awake. I can also build 4 ships a day, regardless.

Alright, I'll bite. Lets take go with your example, hypothetical Diabolos has 18 ships sitting pretty. For the sake of argument, I'll assume there are no spy attacks that would've made it very hard to maintain those 18 ships. Diabolos's 3 original opponents were Grandmaster Chad, Placentica, and Phiney. Since I don't know all your prewar stats, lets say you all have 18 ships and roughly equal air forces. (Numbers are mostly irrelevant here)

 

So, its midnight, and you three all declare war. Placentica immediately goes first with an air attack targeting ships. It will pyrrhic for both sides, but considering the damage planes do to ships, and the number of planes involved, I would say it is quite reasonable to expect it destroys 4 ships. Then Phiney strikes ships in an air attacks, wins the air battle handily, and sinks 4 more ships. Finally Grandmaster Chad does the same, wins the air combat decisively, destroying most of Diabolos's remaining air force, and sinking 4 more ships. This happens in about 2 minutes. In 2 minutes 300 steel and $600,000 have been destroyed. 

 

At that point, it is already game over. Diabolos's 3 opponents wait 4 hours, and then launch another round of airstrikes. The first 2 finish off the remaining ships (assuming they all destroy 4), and the 3rd person sends in their navy unopposed to put Diabolos under a blockade. They may have taken some air force losses, which they were going to take anyway, but none of them lost a single ship.

 

Lets say that Diabolos had to buy all that steel for ships on the market at a price of $2500 per ton. Thats $1,125,000 spent on 450 steel, plus the $600,000 for buying the boats, plus another $500,000 for the drydocks. Add that up for a grand total of $2,225,000 spent on 18 boats which were destroyed almost immediately and had no real impact other than to buy Diabolos 4 hours of time. I wouldn't call that a fair trade, would you?

Edited December 18, 2014 by TheNG

[Aisha Greyjoy]

DEIC was underprepared.  UPN was always prepared, going back weeks and weeks.

 

Its part of the risk of under militarizing to gain economic advantage.  Had there been no war, it might have paid off later.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Aisha Greyjoy

[Phiney]

Alright, I'll bite. Lets take go with your example, hypothetical Diabolos has 18 ships sitting pretty. For the sake of argument, I'll assume there are no spy attacks that would've made it very hard to maintain those 18 ships. Diabolos's 3 original opponents were Grandmaster Chad, Placentica, and Phiney. Since I don't know all your prewar stats, lets say you all have 18 ships and roughly equal air forces. (Numbers are mostly irrelevant here)

 

So, its midnight, and you three all declare war. Placentica immediately goes first with an air attack targeting ships. It will pyrrhic for both sides, but considering the damage planes do to ships, and the number of planes involved, I would say it is quite reasonable to expect it destroys 4 ships. Then Phiney strikes ships in an air attacks, wins the air battle handily, and sinks 4 more ships. Finally Grandmaster Chad does the same, wins the air combat decisively, destroying most of Diabolos's remaining air force, and sinking 4 more ships. This happens in about 2 minutes. In 2 minutes 300 steel and $600,000 have been destroyed. 

 

At that point, it is already game over. Diabolos's 3 opponents wait 4 hours, and then launch another round of airstrikes. The first 2 finish off the remaining ships (assuming they all destroy 4), and the 3rd person sends in their navy unopposed to put Diabolos under a blockade. They may have taken some air force losses, which they were going to take anyway, but none of them lost a single ship.

 

Lets say that Diabolos had to buy all that steel for ships on the market at a price of $2500 per ton. Thats $1,125,000 spent on 450 steel, plus the $600,000 for buying the boats, plus another $500,000 for the drydocks. Add that up for a grand total of $2,225,000 spent on 18 boats which were destroyed almost immediately and had no real impact other than to buy Diabolos 4 hours of time. I wouldn't call that a fair trade, would you?

 

If this is what would happen, you are worse at war than I thought. 

 

lets say those 3 initial attacks do happen, (however I do know the prewar stats, and Chad had a smaller AF than Diabolos and barely any ships). Within the 4 hours, Diabolos awakes (this happened), he can instantly rebuy most of the AF he lost, aswell as 4 of the ships. He is not under blockade and so can spend money buying resources off the market to stock up for the war incase he does get blockaded. He can also airstrike back. Doing all this (and spending that 2 mil) he has avoided the first two missiles from me and plancentica. For reference, those two missiles took out over 6 mil worth of infra. So he's instantly saved himself 4 mil, and allows himself to actually fight back in this war. I don't see that as a bad trade off personally.

[Clarke]

I wouldn't take war advice from Phiney, he thinks 180 planes trashing 190 planes and destroying 10 ships is a bug. I'm not one to say but perhaps one should check if they have ground control or indeed lost it on the first day.

 

My ships would be screwed by the way, I mean it was unlimited spy attacks each day and we're on the defensive side of those spy attacks. 

[Phiney]

I wouldn't take war advice from Phiney, he thinks 180 planes trashing 190 planes and destroying 10 ships is a bug. I'm not one to say but perhaps one should check if they have ground control or indeed lost it on the first day.

 

My ships would be screwed by the way, I mean it was unlimited spy attacks each day and we're on the defensive side of those spy attacks. 

 

er... it WAS a bug, and sheepy said so and fixed it. As was the unlimited spy attacks, which was fixed after one occurance of it happening to you. so..... this is awkward.

[Clarke]

er... it WAS a bug, and sheepy said so and fixed it. As was the unlimited spy attacks, which was fixed after one occurance of it happening to you. so..... this is awkward.

I still don't think you understand what having ground control means. 

Sheepy fixed a somewhat non existence bug since it was actually 180 planes vs 95 planes, me having the 180 planes targeting your ships.

 

Now it's awkward.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Diabolos

[TheNG]

If this is what would happen, you are worse at war than I thought. 

 

lets say those 3 initial attacks do happen, (however I do know the prewar stats, and Chad had a smaller AF than Diabolos and barely any ships). Within the 4 hours, Diabolos awakes (this happened), he can instantly rebuy most of the AF he lost, aswell as 4 of the ships. He is not under blockade and so can spend money buying resources off the market to stock up for the war incase he does get blockaded. He can also airstrike back. Doing all this (and spending that 2 mil) he has avoided the first two missiles from me and plancentica. For reference, those two missiles took out over 6 mil worth of infra. So he's instantly saved himself 4 mil, and allows himself to actually fight back in this war. I don't see that as a bad trade off personally.

If you read my post, you would see that the last attack of the second round would be to put Diabolos under a blockade, since he would've had no ships left at that point.

 

 

At that point, it is already game over. Diabolos's 3 opponents wait 4 hours, and then launch another round of airstrikes. The first 2 finish off the remaining ships (assuming they all destroy 4), and the 3rd person sends in their navy unopposed to put Diabolos under a blockade. 

 

Anyway, in this situation, Diabolos would be under a blockade, and his air force would be mostly gone after 5 strikes against it. He could buy more ships and planes, but they would be generally outnumbered, and could be safely ignored for at least another day. You guys could then missile away at your leisure, and destroy any residual ships and planes if necessary. I still think that those ships would not have been worth the money in any event.

[Phiney]

I still don't think you understand what having ground control means. 

Sheepy fixed a somewhat non existence bug since it was actually 180 planes vs 95 planes, me having the 180 planes targeting your ships.

 

Now it's awkward.

 

What? the war report said it was an utter failure. I don't know if you know what THAT means, but i'm pretty sure it means failing, not successfully killing ships. Sheepy, the admin and creator of this game, said it was a bug. Im pretty sure he is the guy that decides how stuff works and if things are bugs or not, not you. It doesnt make a difference if you think it SHOULD have been a success, the report said FAILURE. 

[Clarke]

What? the war report said it was an utter failure. I don't know if you know what THAT means, but i'm pretty sure it means failing, not successfully killing ships. Sheepy, the admin and creator of this game, said it was a bug. Im pretty sure he is the guy that decides how stuff works and if things are bugs or not, not you. It doesnt make a difference if you think it SHOULD have been a success, the report said FAILURE. 

 

No it was a success, you documented it here remember: http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3892-reduce-aircraft-damage-to-ships/

[Phiney]

If you read my post, you would see that the last attack of the second round would be to put Diabolos under a blockade, since he would've had no ships left at that point.

 

 

Anyway, in this situation, Diabolos would be under a blockade, and his air force would be mostly gone after 5 strikes against it. He could buy more ships and planes, but they would be generally outnumbered, and could be safely ignored for at least another day. You guys could then missile away at your leisure, and destroy any residual ships and planes if necessary. I still think that those ships would not have been worth the money in any event.

 

no, I completely read it correctly, but, as I said, before the second wave of attacks Diabolos awoke, and could rebuild before he would have been placed under blockade by your analysis. 2 turns from the first wave attacks was 9am GMT, and Diabolos is almost always on before then, as he was that day.

[Phiney]

No it was a success, you documented it here remember: http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3892-reduce-aircraft-damage-to-ships/

 

You're right, my bad, it was you saying I claimed it was a bug that threw me off as I reported the utter failure bug at the same time. That was actually just a suggestion I made, not a bug report, and all sheepy did was very slightly reduce the damage to ships that planes make, something NG complained about in this very thread.

[Zoot]

er... it WAS a bug, and sheepy said so and fixed it. As was the unlimited spy attacks, which was fixed after one occurance of it happening to you. so..... this is awkward.

 

 

I still don't think you understand what having ground control means. 

Sheepy fixed a somewhat non existence bug since it was actually 180 planes vs 95 planes, me having the 180 planes targeting your ships.

 

Now it's awkward.

 

Looks around at all the awkwardness...please continue

[TheNG]

You're right, my bad, it was you saying I claimed it was a bug that threw me off as I reported the utter failure bug at the same time. That was actually just a suggestion I made, not a bug report, and all sheepy did was very slightly reduce the damage to ships that planes make, something NG complained about in this very thread.

You mistake my intentions, I wasn't complaining about it, just stating that it existed and would have to be factored in. Planes still do a lot of damage to ships. 

 

no, I completely read it correctly, but, as I said, before the second wave of attacks Diabolos awoke, and could rebuild before he would have been placed under blockade by your analysis. 2 turns from the first wave attacks was 9am GMT, and Diabolos is almost always on before then, as he was that day.

Alright, lets say that Diabolos wakes up before you guys finish him off, and he rebuilds what he can. He had 6 ships left, and rebuilds 4, for a total of 10. This will still be a lot less, and while he could possibly blockade someone, he would lose most of his rebuilt ships, and be easier to blockade by one of his opponents next time. Best case scenario, Diabolos's 18 ships would buy him a roughly a day of mostly missile-free time. This could be considered a bonus, but considering there are still 4 days left to have missiles dropped on him, plus another 5 days in the next war, it is somewhat negligible.

[Phiney]

You mistake my intentions, I wasn't complaining about it, just stating that it existed and would have to be factored in. Planes still do a lot of damage to ships. 

 

Alright, lets say that Diabolos wakes up before you guys finish him off, and he rebuilds what he can. He had 6 ships left, and rebuilds 4, for a total of 10. This will still be a lot less, and while he could possibly blockade someone, he would lose most of his rebuilt ships, and be easier to blockade by one of his opponents next time. Best case scenario, Diabolos's 18 ships would buy him a roughly a day of mostly missile-free time. This could be considered a bonus, but considering there are still 4 days left to have missiles dropped on him, plus another 5 days in the next war, it is somewhat negligible.

 

Sorry but that's not negligible whatsoever, that's 4 less missiles. that's about 16-20 mil less in damages at least. And this isn't counting him using his attacks, likely maybe gaining ground superiority on me (like he did) and then airstriking my ships away with immense triumphs, which he can do as he has the resources from the market to rebuy ships and AF and we're still trying to take them out (for reference, I wouldn't have airstriked him at all, I'd have gone Ships VS Ships all the way). This completely allows him to actually fight in his wars. If wilhelm does the same thing, he can co-ordinate with him and the two of them can do actual damage instead of sitting there doing nothing. Regardless of whether or not its a better financial decision (it is), it's gotta feel a lot better fighting back than just sitting there and taking it. All from a little common sense.

[TheNG]

Well argued, in the case of Diabolos, should he wake up before you guys complete your triumph, then having those ships could be potentially useful, if they are used right and the war works right as predicted. Of course, factoring spies and the uncertainty of war in, it might not work out how predicted at all, and the example might not hold true for many lower level nations.

[Phiney]

Well argued, in the case of Diabolos, should he wake up before you guys complete your triumph, then having those ships could be potentially useful, if they are used right and the war works right as predicted. Of course, factoring spies and the uncertainty of war in, it might not work out how predicted at all, and the example might not hold true for many lower level nations.

 

I completely agree, but if you don't try, you will never find out. Obviously you are going to plan for the game to work without bugs, but that can't always happen, but that's life. It was the sheer lack of planning I wanted to address, and am glad I could get my point across to you. I think ships are even more important in lower nations, as if you've gone full military and then get blockaded you could be making negative income or very very little and so can't re-buy jack shit. For the price of 300-400k per nation, If you have the cash in the bank/spare-able by your top nations I think it is very worth it and could have saved you guys a lot of pain in this war. Anyway, you live and learn. 

[Jodo]

Clearly we should pick 10 players in TEST and voc, give them a month to stockpile, and then let them go at it. See who understands the war system better.

[SoS]

I'm taking all bets. Line is 3:1 Test.

[Ayayay]

Absolutely sexy war on one side. Obviously the other was less prepared but I'm glad Rose/Guardian/SK is willing to admit the war is simply retaliation rather than trying to paint it as "protecting the global sphere" or something. I was afraid of that.

But they did?

 

I had 20 ships a day before the war. They got spied, built back up to 18 then got dowed. Lost all 18 within 12 hours of the dow. I didn't actually need them since I had over a weeks worth of resources stockpiled but the steel cost still stings

Edited December 19, 2014 by underlordgc

[Aisha Greyjoy]

I think I killed some of those ships in a naval battle.  Is the consensus I was foolish and should have used airpower vs ships?

[Ayayay]

I think I killed some of those ships in a naval battle.  Is the consensus I was foolish and should have used airpower vs ships?

Eh, you killed the last of them off with your blockade IIRC. That irrelevant guy/AA failed when he tried but he eliminated half of them in a single strike. You just finished them off

[Vincent]

One extreme interesting thing to note about the war.people seems to fight harder in the forum than in battle field.