Lelouch Vi Britannia Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) OOC: Awesome title I know. I am sooooo expecting to maybe cause a firestorm, or maybe we get an interesting discussion. Also, sources will be linked. So as most of you are aware the Trump Ban has banned citizens from "Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen". However, there are some points I will be bringing up. These will cover the 9/11 hijackers, the way you can interpret the ban, and finally what this means for the Daesh. Countries affected by the ban: This is more than likely following into Trump's campaign promise to "Donald J. Trump is calling for a complete and total shutdown of muslims entering the country...". So here is where I would like the Right-Winged chaps of Orbis to help refresh my mind on the first topic. "If he said complete, why didn't he block: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan and the UAE?" Is this because Trump as the "Mighty Businessman" he is, he didn't want to ban people from countries that hold valuable assets? He didn't ban Saudis despite the fact they are a Muslim Majority country, though, they have assets in his name. Did I mention "The hijackers in the September 11 attacks were 19 men affiliated with al-Qaeda. 15 of the 19 were citizens of Saudi Arabia". So, once again, WHY is Saudi and other countries not on this list? P.S. The others were from Lebanon, Egypt and U.A.E. Keep in mind, these men killed more US citizens than any other Terror attack on U.S. soil in quite a while. What does this mean for the Daesh? Numerous terror groups have tried time and time again to lure in more recruits to send into the meat grinder. However, there numbers never really reach higher than the hundreds and sometimes thousands. The idea they try to sell to muslims is "The USA hates you and doesn't want you, join us and destroy them". So, wouldn't a Muslim ban sell this image? Doesn't it tell Muslims in the USA we hate you? Link and Link Of course, these are only thoughts I put together why listening to my parents, my Catholic Polish Grandparents, and numerous other people chatting away. I am not trying to pick a fight, I would only like to hear the other side of the story. Edited January 30, 2017 by Lelouch Vi Britannia Quote Ex-Archduke of Defence for BK 3 minutes ago, Buorhann said: @Lelouch Vi Britannia - BK needs you, but they really don't deserve you. Thanks for the dankness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimbitsNCoffee Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Cuz money. Not even joking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lelouch Vi Britannia Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 Cuz money. Not even joking. Ayy Lmao Quote Ex-Archduke of Defence for BK 3 minutes ago, Buorhann said: @Lelouch Vi Britannia - BK needs you, but they really don't deserve you. Thanks for the dankness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woot Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) erased Edited May 1, 2022 by Woot 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozalia Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Cuz money. Not even joking. FAKE NEWS! https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/ Trump's order references the nations of concern which is an Obama list. The only nation Trump himself specifically named was Syria (also on the list) which he put harsher terms on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fistofdoom Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 "Trump is doing exactly what liberals claimed he wouldn't: He's listening to his advisors and acting in U.S. interests instead of swinging his cock around completely carelessly on the world stage. Quote 01:05:55 <%fistofdoom> im out of wine 01:06:03 <%fistofdoom> i winsih i had port 01:06:39 <@JoshF{BoC}> fistofdoom: is the snowman drunk with you 01:07:32 <%fistofdoom> i knet i forgot somehnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimbitsNCoffee Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) FAKE NEWS! https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/ Trump's order references the nations of concern which is an Obama list. The only nation Trump himself specifically named was Syria (also on the list) which he put harsher terms on. Can't tell if serious or LSD Edited January 30, 2017 by TimbitsNCoffee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimbitsNCoffee Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 "Trump isn't !@#$ with the same countries that U.S. presidents have always been extremely reluctant to !@#$ with. It must be because he owns property there!" Has nobody paid any attention to geopolitics until now, and noticed the way we never antagonize an ally like Saudi Arabia even though terrorist funding comes from there? The way Obama would never recognize Turkey's genocide even though his liberal base kept pushing for it? Is that because there was an Obama Tower in Ankara? Trump is doing exactly what liberals claimed he wouldn't: He's listening to his advisors and acting in U.S. interests instead of swinging his cock around completely carelessly on the world stage. Liberals have this whole Trump Nightmare mapped out in their heads, and whenever he goes off course from it and does something more reasonable than the media and the left were expecting, it just makes them even angrier. They turn around and try to rub it in Trump supporter's faces, but Trump supporters are ecstatic. In one week he's done things that the Republican base has wanted for decades and never expected to get. That's exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen. Trump's always positioned himself as "anti-establishment". The establishment gets juicy weapons orders from Saudi Arabia, they don't want to risk business. At what cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) FAKE NEWS! https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/obamas-administration-made-the-muslim-ban-possible-and-the-media-wont-tell-you/ Trump's order references the nations of concern which is an Obama list. The only nation Trump himself specifically named was Syria (also on the list) which he put harsher terms on. Actually, the list was created by Congress, not President Obama. In addition, nothing is stopping Trump from adding additional nations to the list - so not only is it a lie to say that it is an Obama list, but it is a lie to suggest that Trump had no power to add or remove nations to his executive order. He could have done so, but he did not - and the question is why. This is a man who rode into office on the promise of draining the swamp and fixing what he believes Obama's foreign policy ills were; so why is it, then, when push came to shove, that he didn't add any additional states to his executive orders? Why is he continuing the foreign policy of a man and a Congress that he insulted and promised to get rid of? Edited January 30, 2017 by Sargun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilal the Great Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Because the countries banned are irrelevant and America, or hell the rest of the world would lose nothing if they got banned or something. He probably do this just to placate his supporters. I mean I can't think anything worthwhile coming out of Sudan or Somalia. 1 Quote King Bilal the Great Mediocre The Average monarch of Billonesia Wikia page (if you're into roleplay things). We Tvtropes now. (down the rabbit hole!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fistofdoom Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 -i'm angry because president trump isnt as stupid as i want him to be- lol Quote 01:05:55 <%fistofdoom> im out of wine 01:06:03 <%fistofdoom> i winsih i had port 01:06:39 <@JoshF{BoC}> fistofdoom: is the snowman drunk with you 01:07:32 <%fistofdoom> i knet i forgot somehnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 lol Trump just issued an unconstitutional order and is rapidly becoming less popular than I even dreamed of. Let's be clear - this was already an extremely stupid thing to do, and he's already paying the price for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fistofdoom Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Trump just issued an unconstitutional order and is rapidly becoming less popular than I even dreamed of. Let's be clear - this was already an extremely stupid thing to do, and he's already paying the price for it. LOL Quote 01:05:55 <%fistofdoom> im out of wine 01:06:03 <%fistofdoom> i winsih i had port 01:06:39 <@JoshF{BoC}> fistofdoom: is the snowman drunk with you 01:07:32 <%fistofdoom> i knet i forgot somehnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozalia Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Actually, the list was created by Congress, not President Obama. In addition, nothing is stopping Trump from adding additional nations to the list - so not only is it a lie to say that it is an Obama list, but it is a lie to suggest that Trump had no power to add or remove nations to his executive order. He could have done so, but he did not - and the question is why. This is a man who rode into office on the promise of draining the swamp and fixing what he believes Obama's foreign policy ills were; so why is it, then, when push came to shove, that he didn't add any additional states to his executive orders? Why is he continuing the foreign policy of a man and a Congress that he insulted and promised to get rid of? Trump just issued an unconstitutional order and is rapidly becoming less popular than I even dreamed of. Let's be clear - this was already an extremely stupid thing to do, and he's already paying the price for it. Because Trump is smart enough to know the trouble it is to actually do it via religion. He got it done all very legal (unless you're saying Obama was being illegal too) by doing it by nations of concern. If he wishes to add nations he merely would need to add to that list yes. If they are Muslim nations or not is quite irrelevant as officially it ain't a Muslim ban. Can't tell if serious or LSD Your statement matched one of the media narratives that he avoided X nations because of his business interests. That is simply put fake news as explained in the link I provided, unless of course the list was originally done with Trump's business interests in mind which would be... quite something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aisha Greyjoy Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Saudi Arabia is "allegedly" a key US Ally. Their business interests are vast in the USA. Banning Saudis from coming here would seriously !@#$ up our commerce, unlike a few techies who can't get to work at Apple. Trump has had a lot of business dealings with the Saudis too. Its certainly not the "total and complete shutdown" he promised if Saudis can come in, but not banning them makes a lot of sense. 1 Quote Duke of House Greyjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Because Trump is smart enough to know the trouble it is to actually do it via religion. He got it done all very legal (unless you're saying Obama was being illegal too) by doing it by nations of concern. If he wishes to add nations he merely would need to add to that list yes. If they are Muslim nations or not is quite irrelevant as officially it ain't a Muslim ban. Even if we disagree I'm at least glad we can talk to each other civilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caecus Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 "Trump isn't !@#$ with the same countries that U.S. presidents have always been extremely reluctant to !@#$ with. It must be because he owns property there!" Has nobody paid any attention to geopolitics until now, and noticed the way we never antagonize an ally like Saudi Arabia even though terrorist funding comes from there? The way Obama would never recognize Turkey's genocide even though his liberal base kept pushing for it? Is that because there was an Obama Tower in Ankara? Trump is doing exactly what liberals claimed he wouldn't: He's listening to his advisors and acting in U.S. interests instead of swinging his cock around completely carelessly on the world stage. Liberals have this whole Trump Nightmare mapped out in their heads, and whenever he goes off course from it and does something more reasonable than the media and the left were expecting, it just makes them even angrier. They turn around and try to rub it in Trump supporter's faces, but Trump supporters are ecstatic. In one week he's done things that the Republican base has wanted for decades and never expected to get. But that's just contradicting. Trump's move is (geopolitically speaking) stupid. Trump's "ban" is stupid because it doesn't cover ANY of the major nationalities which have contributed to attacks on US soil and ultimately ticks off the nations who are on that list. While you can say Iran isn't a nation we are holding hands with anyway, what about Iraq? What about the nation who has contributed the most ground personnel in the recent battles against ISIS and is serving as a check against Iran's extending influence in the region? Keeping in mind, Iraq is predominately Shia, and every day that the US and Iraqi relations deteriorate, every day Iran has a chance to expand in the region. Before Bush, Iraq has historically been the cornerstone of American influence in the region, acting as a buffer state between Iran and Saudi Arabia and securing American interests. Furthermore, the ban broadcasts to the world that there is a "Christian West vs. Muslim East" mentality, which has been the sales pitch of every radical terror group. If memory serves, almost every successful terror attack on US soil since 9/11 has been homegrown, radicalized by propaganda online. The ban only feeds the propaganda machine. It also gives legitimacy to anti-American nations like Iran who oppose Western influence in the region, claiming the US and the West are Christian crusader aliens who want to destroy Islam. This is all just a short-sighted campaign stunt, so that he call tell his base he did something he promised. His ban will only contribute to the destabilization of the region and give terror groups more propaganda material for homegrown terrorists. He has the foresight of a goddamn pickle and you know it. 3 Quote It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fistofdoom Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 pickle 1 Quote 01:05:55 <%fistofdoom> im out of wine 01:06:03 <%fistofdoom> i winsih i had port 01:06:39 <@JoshF{BoC}> fistofdoom: is the snowman drunk with you 01:07:32 <%fistofdoom> i knet i forgot somehnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozalia Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 But that's just contradicting. Trump's move is (geopolitically speaking) stupid. Trump's "ban" is stupid because it doesn't cover ANY of the major nationalities which have contributed to attacks on US soil and ultimately ticks off the nations who are on that list. While you can say Iran isn't a nation we are holding hands with anyway, what about Iraq? What about the nation who has contributed the most ground personnel in the recent battles against ISIS and is serving as a check against Iran's extending influence in the region? Keeping in mind, Iraq is predominately Shia, and every day that the US and Iraqi relations deteriorate, every day Iran has a chance to expand in the region. Before Bush, Iraq has historically been the cornerstone of American influence in the region, acting as a buffer state between Iran and Saudi Arabia and securing American interests. Furthermore, the ban broadcasts to the world that there is a "Christian West vs. Muslim East" mentality, which has been the sales pitch of every radical terror group. If memory serves, almost every successful terror attack on US soil since 9/11 has been homegrown, radicalized by propaganda online. The ban only feeds the propaganda machine. It also gives legitimacy to anti-American nations like Iran who oppose Western influence in the region, claiming the US and the West are Christian crusader aliens who want to destroy Islam. This is all just a short-sighted campaign stunt, so that he call tell his base he did something he promised. His ban will only contribute to the destabilization of the region and give terror groups more propaganda material for homegrown terrorists. He has the foresight of a goddamn pickle and you know it. You Cannot Grasp the True Form of Trump's Attack! He has outsmarted your like every step of the way so I trust that will continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lelouch Vi Britannia Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 But that's just contradicting. Trump's move is (geopolitically speaking) stupid. Trump's "ban" is stupid because it doesn't cover ANY of the major nationalities which have contributed to attacks on US soil and ultimately ticks off the nations who are on that list. While you can say Iran isn't a nation we are holding hands with anyway, what about Iraq? What about the nation who has contributed the most ground personnel in the recent battles against ISIS and is serving as a check against Iran's extending influence in the region? Keeping in mind, Iraq is predominately Shia, and every day that the US and Iraqi relations deteriorate, every day Iran has a chance to expand in the region. Before Bush, Iraq has historically been the cornerstone of American influence in the region, acting as a buffer state between Iran and Saudi Arabia and securing American interests. Furthermore, the ban broadcasts to the world that there is a "Christian West vs. Muslim East" mentality, which has been the sales pitch of every radical terror group. If memory serves, almost every successful terror attack on US soil since 9/11 has been homegrown, radicalized by propaganda online. The ban only feeds the propaganda machine. It also gives legitimacy to anti-American nations like Iran who oppose Western influence in the region, claiming the US and the West are Christian crusader aliens who want to destroy Islam. This is all just a short-sighted campaign stunt, so that he call tell his base he did something he promised. His ban will only contribute to the destabilization of the region and give terror groups more propaganda material for homegrown terrorists. He has the foresight of a goddamn pickle and you know it. Well damn son, I think you just hit the nail on the head harder than anything. Quote Ex-Archduke of Defence for BK 3 minutes ago, Buorhann said: @Lelouch Vi Britannia - BK needs you, but they really don't deserve you. Thanks for the dankness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaryllis Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Warning: On phone and it's almost 3:30 AM as I write this so if it's crap that's why. Anyway my POV. Do I think Trump excluded certain nations due to them having his businesses stationed there. Well, considering that he's done a poor job (at least from what I observed) of seperating himself from his businesses (and no putting his children in charge was not enough no matter how hard you sell it) I can see why some would think that. With that being said, there is also the issue that the nations that are not on the list (Saudi Arabia for example) are U.S. allies and to say that's a slippery slope is an understatement. So the motive could be one, the other, or both. Now, is it a good idea. No. Some people have said this before, but the last few terrorists incidents that happened here were from homegrown terrorists. The ban doesn't stop them and if anything this gives them more fuel to do what they do, especially if they're seeing it firsthand. I get why people support it and I also get that something needs to be done, but I also do hope there is awareness on the possible fallout. Anyway. Amaryllis out! Quote Nerd To The Core Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozalia Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Warning: On phone and it's almost 3:30 AM as I write this so if it's crap that's why. Anyway my POV. Do I think Trump excluded certain nations due to them having his businesses stationed there. Well, considering that he's done a poor job (at least from what I observed) of seperating himself from his businesses (and no putting his children in charge was not enough no matter how hard you sell it) I can see why some would think that. With that being said, there is also the issue that the nations that are not on the list (Saudi Arabia for example) are U.S. allies and to say that's a slippery slope is an understatement. So the motive could be one, the other, or both. Now, is it a good idea. No. Some people have said this before, but the last few terrorists incidents that happened here were from homegrown terrorists. The ban doesn't stop them and if anything this gives them more fuel to do what they do, especially if they're seeing it firsthand. I get why people support it and I also get that something needs to be done, but I also do hope there is awareness on the possible fallout. Anyway. Amaryllis out! You can think what you want certainly, but the "excluded due to businesses" is proven Fake News. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caecus Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I just wanna put this out there - you will never have home grown radical Islamic terrorism if you don't have any Muslims in your country. Just something to think about. Ah, you must not be American, so you wouldn't understand how such an action would challenge our national identity. Quote It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaryllis Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I just wanna put this out there - you will never have home grown radical Islamic terrorism if you don't have any Muslims in your country. Just something to think about. Okay if I use your logic then that opens the door for any religion to be banned if it had radicals groups, Chritianity included. Also not exaxtly true, ISIS does spread the word through means such as social media that comes with videos that showcase things such as these, which people can take seriously. You could also argue people can still meet those who follow Islam using the same methods (take Lelouch for example) and good luck banning all of them from the internet. Anyway again sorry if this is crap. No caffeine yet so I'm not completely awake xp. Quote Nerd To The Core Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaryllis Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 You can think what you want certainly, but the "excluded due to businesses" is proven Fake News. Proof please. I'm trying to find an article that explain how it isn't due to business and not finding any. Quote Nerd To The Core Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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