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Rozalia

"True" Islam

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A thread was made on the "true religion of peace" so I thought this was apt for those who claim Islam is a religion of peace. 

 

Which is it? Sunni? Which school of jurisprudence is correct then? Shia? Which school of jurisprudence is correct then? What about Sufis? Baha’is? Alawites? Ibadis? Wahhabis? Salafism? Khawarij? Yazidi? Zikri? Hurufi? Quranism? Islamism?

 

Apparently it's some nebulous "Liberal and tolerant" Islam but where is this Islam exactly? Which one are we talking about exactly? I'm sure Muslims like Abu and Moreau III can agree with me that it's all a bunch of twaddle. Apostasy is the closest to such a thing but Liberals seem to have no interest in protecting them to the joy of Muslims everywhere.

Edited by Rozalia

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What does it matter? Religion is religion, they're all terrible, with Islam being one of the most nonconstructive belief system. 

 

Though, I see Quranism as a reformist movement in Islam, sadly it isn't mainstream to turn the tide with this conserative nonsense. The Quran itself isn't coherent with modern day standards, and has many times called for the deaths of "Infidels". 

Edited by Comrade Enver Hoxha
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What does it matter? Religion is religion, they're all terrible, with Islam being one of the most nonconstructive belief system. 

 

Though, I see Quranism as a reformist movement in Islam, sadly it isn't mainstream to turn the tide with this conserative nonsense. The Quran itself isn't coherent with modern day standards, and has many times called for the deaths of "Infidels". 

 

I can agree with that, however that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

 

Quranism sees the Hadith as corrupt, contradictory (to the Quran), blasphemous, absurd, and idol worship (worship of Mohammed). As Sharia gets a lot of itself from the Hadith that mainstream version of it is also wrong to them. You could go down the path of saying they're the ones on the path to modernisation as they at least throw away the Hadith, however as I said "apostasy" is not protected in the west as "discrimination" against the Muslim mainstream is seen as more important. If the environment was safe for them you could well see Quranism increase in the west, but with Muslims allowed to punish their own as they are the chance of that is all of 0.  I mean I say the west because trying to be one in Muslim countries is... even worse naturally, Muslims hate their own far more than the infidels I tell you.

Edited by Rozalia

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I really don't want to get involved in this, but there really isn't a correct version of anything without knowing exactly happened the last 14 billion years. I mean, we need to know everything from the Big Bang to know exactly what is right or correct. You need to have met the ruler of the universe "God" regardless of what religion you believe in. I myself have doubted God recently because I know he is hiding something. I will believe in the God that I believe in when I have proof and evidence that what happened in these religious books actually happened.

 

tl;dr there isn't a correct version of anything.

Edited by Lysandre Mackintosh

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I really don't want to get involved in this, but there really isn't a correct version of anything without knowing exactly happened the last 14 billion years. I mean, we need to know everything from the Big Bang to know exactly what is right or correct. You need to have met the ruler of the universe "God" regardless of what religion you believe in. I myself have doubted God recently because I know he is hiding something. I will believe in the God that I believe in when I have proof and evidence that what happened in these religious books actually happened.

 

tl;dr there isn't a correct version of anything.

 

You misunderstand the point of the thread. The point is not to find what is the "correct version" of Islam, but to show up as nonsense the notion that "true" Islam is some magical nebulous tolerant Islam. What I ask is where that Islam is exactly, what particular brand of Islam are they talking about.

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You misunderstand the point of the thread. The point is not to find what is the "correct version" of Islam, but to show up as nonsense the notion that "true" Islam is some magical nebulous tolerant Islam. What I ask is where that Islam is exactly, what particular brand of Islam are they talking about.

Again my answer would be the same. There is not correct/true/real/actual version of any belief

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Again my answer would be the same. There is not correct/true/real/actual version of any belief

 

Then you are assuming the incorrect assumption once again. That you just said is you could say my point exactly so to state it as a rebuttal to me makes no sense. The "true" Islam the Liberals preach about doesn't exist. 

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Expecting Abu or Moreau to go crazy when seeing this...

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ok to answer your question.

 

The most frequently cited hadith regarding the 73 divisions of the Muslim faith is reported as: the Jews are divided into 71 sects (firqa), the Christians into 72 sects, and my community will divide into 73 sects (Ibn Majah, Abu Daud, al-Tirmidhi and al-Nisa’i). The hadith also occurs in many other versions as well.

then the hadith goes on. "All of them will go to hell but one. And they asked which sect is this. He replied the one that follows me and my companions"

from this we can imply that salafis but in a greater term sunnis are the correct muslims because we follow the prophet and his companions. Whilst shiites openly curse the companions and declare most hadeeth as false. 

from that you guess that most muslims will go to hell but no. This is because not all groups have the same number of people.

So if i made a little gang or something and said we are the people of truth i would be wrong. The people of truth is the largest sect and as sunnis are the largest set we can infer that sunnis are the people of truth.


when Jesus returns to the earth he will rule by the quran.

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Can i ask why is religion not compatible with science.

for example in the quran it contains many miracles and scientific details that an illiterate man 1400 years ago could not have known

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I knew it.

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I knew it.

if I'm wrong provide evidence against me

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ok to answer your question.

 

The most frequently cited hadith regarding the 73 divisions of the Muslim faith is reported as: the Jews are divided into 71 sects (firqa), the Christians into 72 sects, and my community will divide into 73 sects (Ibn Majah, Abu Daud, al-Tirmidhi and al-Nisa’i). The hadith also occurs in many other versions as well.

then the hadith goes on. "All of them will go to hell but one. And they asked which sect is this. He replied the one that follows me and my companions"

from this we can imply that salafis but in a greater term sunnis are the correct muslims because we follow the prophet and his companions. Whilst shiites openly curse the companions and declare most hadeeth as false. 

from that you guess that most muslims will go to hell but no. This is because not all groups have the same number of people.

So if i made a little gang or something and said we are the people of truth i would be wrong. The people of truth is the largest sect and as sunnis are the largest set we can infer that sunnis are the people of truth.

 

when Jesus returns to the earth he will rule by the quran.

 

What is your view on the Hadith being idol worship? It's shaky anyway. Moreau often goes after the bible on the years after it was written but seems to have no issue with the Hadith which is guilty of the same thing.

 

A sect being the largest does not determine it to be "true". If Protestant Christianity overtook Catholicism would it suddenly be upgraded to true status? If Shi'ism overtook Sunnism in numbers would you convert on the basis that it must be true if it has more people? I doubt it. If we go further Christanity has higher numbers than Islam and in time Atheism will overtake both... you going to convert to Christianity for being truer via numbers? Doubt it. 

 

Can i ask why is religion not compatible with science.

for example in the quran it contains many miracles and scientific details that an illiterate man 1400 years ago could not have known

 

Thats enough for it's own thread I think, this doesn't have to do with that.

 

Expecting Abu or Moreau to go crazy when seeing this...

 

Don't see why they would if they can understand the principle of what is being said in the OP. They both know this fantasy version of Islam conjured up is nonsense.

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Also alawis and nizaris are not considered muslim by anyone because they have abrogated sharia. e.g.. they do not pray and they fornicate

Anyone who submits to god is essentially a muslim but they are not following correct version of islam..

As for the sunni schools of thought it is because the four imams. Malik, Shafii, Abu Hanifa and Ahmad bin Hanbal got their hadith and sources from different places and people.

It is far more complicated than the groups above and i could make a whole wiki about Islamic Theology but it would be too long.

For more information read about yassir qadi

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What is your view on the Hadith being idol worship? It's shaky anyway. Moreau often goes after the bible on the years after it was written but seems to have no issue with the Hadith which is guilty of the same thing.

 

A sect being the largest does not determine it to be "true". If Protestant Christianity overtook Catholicism would it suddenly be upgraded to true status? If Shi'ism overtook Sunnism in numbers would you convert on the basis that it must be true if it has more people? I doubt it. If we go further Christanity has higher numbers than Islam and in time Atheism will overtake both... you going to convert to Christianity for being truer via numbers? Doubt it. 

 

 

Thats enough for it's own thread I think, this doesn't have to do with that.

 

 

Don't see why they would if they can understand the principle of what is being said in the OP. They both know this fantasy version of Islam conjured up is nonsense

Can you elaborate why hadith is idol worship?

Sunnis have always been the larger group and will be for the foreseeable future.

This is because we are the people of truth and the people of truth are the larger group according to hadeeth. (I'm trying to find the exact wording so i don't lie)

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1032px-Islam_branches_and_schools.svg.pn

 

A thread was made on the "true religion of peace" so I thought this was apt for those who claim Islam is a religion of peace. 

 

Which is it? Sunni? Which school of jurisprudence is correct then? Shia? Which school of jurisprudence is correct then? 

 

The only true Muslims are Sunnis (the overwhelming vast majority of Muslims) and all the four schools of thought are correct.

 

Wahhabis? Salafism? Islamism? 

 

Good Sunni Muslims. 

 

What about Sufis?

 

Some Sufis have added innovations to the religion but have not committed Shirk (associating partners with Allah) or any major Kufr (disbelief) so they are considered Muslims albeit misguided ones.

Others are considered to have left the fold of Islam altogether due to their Shirk/major Kufr. 

 

Ibadis?  Khawarij? 

 

Severely, misguided Muslims. 

 

Baha’is? Alawites?  Ibadis? Yazidi? Zikri? Hurufi? Quranism?

 

Not Muslims.

Edited by Moreau III

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i would consider shiites as misguided muslims except the alwais and nizaris as they do not pray

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i would consider shiites as misguided muslims except the alwais and nizaris as they do not pray

 

No, akhi, they are Murtadeen. They give their 12 imams Godly attributes and treat Ali(RA) the way Christians treat Isa(AS). 

 

Not to mention....

 

- Grave worshipping.

- Insulting and cursing the companions of the Prophet (saw).

- Insulting and cursing the wife of Prophet (saw) and the mother of the believers. 

Edited by Moreau III

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Can you elaborate why hadith is idol worship?

Sunnis have always been the larger group and will be for the foreseeable future.

This is because we are the people of truth and the people of truth are the larger group according to hadeeth. (I'm trying to find the exact wording so i don't lie)

 

Quran, word of god. Hadith, supposed sayings of Mohammad. The angle is that Muslims going by Hadiths which are questionable to begin with are putting more stock in Mohammad than god, Islam is after all infamously contradictory and Mohammad supposedly contradicting god is a part of that. One thing I've often heard said is that Mohammad is the most perfect and greatest man, which rates as typical idol worship to me. 

 

Were they when Mohammad was around? Pretty sure it was simply "Muslims" and then Sunnism came and established itself as the dominate group... actually if you think of it from that angle, that being the Sunnis are a heretical group then Quranism seems to be closest to Mohammad. After all they are simply "Muslims" as they go off just the Quran and not off the Hadith. 

 

People of truth would not need to kill unbelievers so why not drop all that unpleasantness? 

 

The only true Muslims are Sunnis (the overwhelming vast majority of Muslims) and all the four schools of thought are correct.

 

Sunni Muslims. 

 

 

 

Some Sufis have added innovations to the religion but have not committed Shirk (associating partners with Allah) or any major Kufr (disbelief) so they are considered Muslims albeit misguided ones.

 

Not Muslims.

 

Looking at it there were in the past other schools that either went bust or merged with the existing ones so how can that claim of yours be serious? If one school goes bust in 10 uears as no one adhears to it will you change what you say to "all the three schools of thought are correct"?

 

It's hypocritical how you will allow their interpretations (what they are) but discount others. You have no consistency on the matter. 

 

Speaking of Sufis it seems the perfect man thing is due to them. Why do you not disavow the idol worship you've shown in the past by referring to Mohammad in such a manner?

 

Can you disprove Baha’is isn't a faith onward from Islam, a later version sent? You have talk of it being the final message but a lot of faiths run on that angle so it's a null point. Not to mention if you can't then why should the claim that Islam is the final one be taken seriously? It can't, so Muslims have tried to to kill Baha’is, a religion that has often beat them in the fast growing stakes (something you leave out when championing Islam's numbers gain).

 

So Quranists aren't Muslims for following what Mohammad did? All because they don't follow a collection put together by a man, not the greatest or most perfect man or any such nonsense either, who discarded a great many sayings to establish what suited him best?

 

If it were so simple Muslims wouldn't have to kill "not Muslims" to keep their faith strong but yet they do...ummm... Christianity used to do the same you know. There were for example groups who looked at the Catholic church who lived like Kings and asked how exactly they were following the word of Jesus, and such groups very quickly gained members from the populace as it was blindingly obvious the church was corrupt. The response from the church? "Heretics, kill them all". Current mainstream Islam is just like that Catholic Church of old, it's corrupt and everyone can see it but they will kill any member of the faith who calls them out on it. 

 

- Grave worshipping.

 

That is interesting because I can raise another comparison with Catholicism. Jesuit priests made many missions to other lands to convert the population to Christianity, one of them being China. There they adopted Chinese dress and respected Chinese traditions, the most prominent of which was the Confucius ideal of honouring your family. As the Jesuits were tolerant of such things Christianity was accepted and saw some growth. The Church hearing of this called it idol worship and heretical which obviously weakened the faith in China considerably. 

 

The lack of tolerance and leaps done to accuse others of heresy is again just like the Catholic church. Like with those Catholics it seems like you'd rather the Shias in Shia countries not be Muslims at all then to accept them as fellow members of the faith. 

Edited by Rozalia

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ok to answer your question.

 

The most frequently cited hadith regarding the 73 divisions of the Muslim faith is reported as: the Jews are divided into 71 sects (firqa), the Christians into 72 sects, and my community will divide into 73 sects (Ibn Majah, Abu Daud, al-Tirmidhi and al-Nisa’i). The hadith also occurs in many other versions as well.

then the hadith goes on. "All of them will go to hell but one. And they asked which sect is this. He replied the one that follows me and my companions"

from this we can imply that salafis but in a greater term sunnis are the correct muslims because we follow the prophet and his companions. Whilst shiites openly curse the companions and declare most hadeeth as false. 

from that you guess that most muslims will go to hell but no. This is because not all groups have the same number of people.

So if i made a little gang or something and said we are the people of truth i would be wrong. The people of truth is the largest sect and as sunnis are the largest set we can infer that sunnis are the people of truth.

when Jesus returns to the earth he will rule by the quran.

More numbers doesn't mean its correct.

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More numbers doesn't mean its correct.

There is hadeeth that suggests that the largest group is the correct group.

Therefore salafis and in greater sunnis are the largest so we are the people of truth

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There is hadeeth that suggests that the largest group is the correct group.

Therefore salafis and in greater sunnis are the largest so we are the people of truth

So Christianity is true? 

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So Christianity is true? 

 

Sunni Islam is actually the single largest religion on the planet. You can't combine Protestants and Catholics under the banner of "Christianity" when they both have widely different set of beliefs. 

 

Also the ahadith Abu Haddad was referring to are the following:

 

“Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims! For, he who deviates from this group will be thrown into Hell!†[sunnan Ibn Majah, Hadith # 3950]
 
“Allah will never allow my Ummah to unite upon misguidance and incorrect beliefs. Allah’s mercy, blessings and protection are with the largest group of Muslims. And he who deviates from this largest group of Muslims will be thrown into Hell.†(Sunan Al Tirmizi Vol.2 Pg.39)
 
“He who deviates from the largest group of Muslims, even as much as a hand span, has himself cut off his connection with Islamâ€. (Abu Dawud)
 
Allah will never let my Ummah agree upon misguidance, and the hand of Allah is over the group (Jama'ah), so follow the great mass of believers (Sawad ul-'Azam), and whoever dissents from them departs to hell(al-Tirmidhi (4/2167)

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There is hadeeth that suggests that the largest group is the correct group.

Therefore salafis and in greater sunnis are the largest so we are the people of truth

what no, population changes that is dumb, if everyone believed that i was a god that wouldn't make me a god

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