Lannan13 Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 If the answer to the question posed in the tile of this topic is "Islamic State"... How are we judging what's 'morally wrong'? Are we going by statistics or are we simply basing it upon our own subjective emotions? Is beheading one civilian worse than air striking one hundred civilians for example (or just two civilians for that matter)? Answer honestly|&|plainly: Do you place a lower value on the lives of the millions of civilians massacred by western governments in 'Muslims countries' as opposed to the hundreds of 'fellow' western civilians killed by IS in what they (IS) describe as 'retaliatory attacks'? And does the media hype strongly influence your opinion on what is and is not morally bad? Lets discuss. Morality is subjective. What are we basing it off of? Ethic of Care, Categorical Imperitives, Kingdom of Ends, Veil of Ignorance, Ultiliarianism, etc..? Quote Tiocfaidh ár lá =Censored by Politics and War Moderation team= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannan13 Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Because our politicians don't listen to our military.... Welcome to the West! There were documents from the DOD that showed that if we attempted to topple Asaad that there would be a rise in of a Salafist state in eastern Syria. Meaning they knew ISIS was a possibility, but went through with it anyways. Quote Tiocfaidh ár lá =Censored by Politics and War Moderation team= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannan13 Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 americans murdered countless vietmanese men woman and even children america fund isreal to commit genocide america have killed millons through actions. count up middle east, world war 2 and 1. coldwar with vietnam and others. america are worse then both hitler and isis. george bush should strand trial for war crimes 1. Not as many as the Veit Cong and Ho Chi Mihn did after the US withdrawl. 2. It's self-defense. The second after Israel had independence the entire Middle East moved against Israel. 3. Your definitions of "killed" and "actions" are vague. 4. Not really. Some people fvcked up in Iraq and shouldn't have done what they did, but there was no real issue that had occured. Of course I believe the US had no reason to be there in the first place. Quote Tiocfaidh ár lá =Censored by Politics and War Moderation team= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Mcfloyd Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 the terorist group that trys to kill or the the nation who had made some good and bad decisions i think the chose is obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 There were documents from the DOD that showed that if we attempted to topple Asaad that there would be a rise in of a Salafist state in eastern Syria. Meaning they knew ISIS was a possibility, but went through with it anyways. i would love to see your source for this. sounds juicy if true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speaker Faris Wheeler Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 If the answer to the question posed in the tile of this topic is "Islamic State"... How are we judging what's 'morally wrong'? Are we going by statistics or are we simply basing it upon our own subjective emotions? Is beheading one civilian worse than air striking one hundred civilians for example (or just two civilians for that matter)? Answer honestly|&|plainly: Do you place a lower value on the lives of the millions of civilians massacred by western governments in 'Muslims countries' as opposed to the hundreds of 'fellow' western civilians killed by IS in what they (IS) describe as 'retaliatory attacks'? And does the media hype strongly influence your opinion on what is and is not morally bad? Lets discuss. Quote Peace will never be accomplished without war, but war cannot happen without peace.... or something like that idk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannan13 Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 i would love to see your source for this. sounds juicy if true DOD document https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Pg.-291-Pgs.-287-293-JW-v-DOD-and-State-14-812-DOD-Release-2015-04-10-final-version11.pdf Story online http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216 1 Quote Tiocfaidh ár lá =Censored by Politics and War Moderation team= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 There is a difference between unintended civilian casualties and intentional civilian casualties. Nuff said. Quote _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannan13 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 There is a difference between unintended civilian casualties and intentional civilian casualties. Nuff said. Well here I would like to go with Saul D Alinsky's definition, "The difference between a terrorist and a Patriot is sucess."- Rules for Radicals Ch2. Quote Tiocfaidh ár lá =Censored by Politics and War Moderation team= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) actually, the US does deliberately kill civilians. there's this thing they do called a "double tap", where they hit targets and then wait for medical personnel to show up to the scene and then bomb the same site again. they do it so that even if the fighters are wounded or whatever, nobody will come and help them so they die. hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the US government, and one of the justifications they used to classify them as such was the use of double taps. Double tap is a firearm shooting technique. Though I won't deny that this tactic is used, however it's not something that is used all the time. One example is the journalist that was killed by a US helicopter. After he and a group of people were gunned down some civilians came to help them. They were all gunned down as well. However, in this case, the people in the chopper thought the the people they were shooting at were combatants. They obviously made a bad call and someone along the lines should have used better judgement. On the other hand, these guys are like a mile away or so, viewing these people through a tiny infrared screen. It's not the best thing for discerning details. But again on the other hand, they basically tried to cover it up and still wont admit any fault. In the case of ISIS, we're bombing them with jets and not even flying very many sorties compared to what we could. Your "double tap" tactic is likely not even being used here and this tactic in general hardly means that our military intentionally targets civilians. If you want examples of the US military intentionally slaughtering unarmed civilians, there are much better examples. Well here I would like to go with Saul D Alinsky's definition, "The difference between a terrorist and a Patriot is sucess."- Rules for Radicals Ch2. Indeed. However the subject is who is more morally wrong. I don't believe in moral truth but I do have morals. According to mine I would say ISIS is less moral. I mean what are ISIS fighting for? They are fighting to create an imperialist caliphate that has no intention to stop expanding. As they expand, they intend to kill all opposition as well as anyone they feel like killing, really. Their motto and common claims by ISIS fighters makes this clear. ISIS has absolutely no intention for peace and they never have. What is the US fighting for? They are fighting to prop up governments that the international world recognizes as well as defend our own national security by assuring a group of people who intend to wage war on us (as well as the entire planet) are not allowed to create a state, which would be a training ground for people who will wage war on numerous nations for simple sake of imperialist expansion and a delusional ideology. Are there other, more self interested motivations? Of course. There always is. However the main goals are completely in the interest of every American citizen. What happens if ISIS stops fighting? Then all of the smaller groups and rebels are eventually wiped out and things will likely start to stabilize. It wouldn't happen overnight, but the amount of violence would almost definitely decrease. What happens if the US stops fighting? Nothing. The only effect it has is that the single most powerful enemy ISIS has is no longer fighting, giving them a better chance of expansion and basically telling the American people that their own government refuses to protect them. ^All of this does not even take into account who kills how many people or what kinds of people are being killed. Conclusion: ISIS is considerably less moral than the United States. Edited January 9, 2016 by Fox Fire 1 Quote _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 If you want examples of the US military intentionally slaughtering unarmed civilians, there are much better examples. by all means DOD document https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Pg.-291-Pgs.-287-293-JW-v-DOD-and-State-14-812-DOD-Release-2015-04-10-final-version11.pdf Story online http://www.globalresearch.ca/defense-intelligence-agency-create-a-salafist-principality-in-syria-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/5451216 yeah, this is very interesting. i find it interesting not only that a lot of the document at the end has been edited out, but also that "western powers" was used as a descriptor without having been defined anywhere we can see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lannan13 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 by all means yeah, this is very interesting. i find it interesting not only that a lot of the document at the end has been edited out, but also that "western powers" was used as a descriptor without having been defined anywhere we can see. Yeah, there's an episode of Reality Check that goes more into depth about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1aDciHCejA Quote Tiocfaidh ár lá =Censored by Politics and War Moderation team= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutsuo Toi Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) There ain't no morality about being right or wrong, it's just war, a conflict made up only for the power we used. Anyone who don't fight for power only deserved to become a formal slave. Morality is material to control you, keep you away from the user power. What I know about morality is Human+Morality= Good citizen= volunteer slave ISIS, Western civilization are all the same. The only western civilization have a good morality is Europe since England,France,Sweden,Germany and Belgium is gone into "Caliphate". The people who don't accept or resist the foolish ideal in Europe are considered as a Nazism, Racist, a "filthy criminal" and infidel. If you don't believe what I said about Europe, why not considered travel the "Caliphate" nation? You are really a "Samaritan" if become the part of "diversity", "cultural enriched",... person. No matter how you're the US military or a terrorist, it still the same. We are all Warmonger, We're no heroes, we're all part of the nature , but the only things matter is.... Are you going to do what the bloodthirsty had done? Edited January 9, 2016 by Howard Roark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abu Haddad Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 All of you have shown yourselves to be uncaring people and all show yourselves as western supremacists. A life is a life, wether it be a black life, a Hispanic or an Arab. The USA has done some pretty evil things. Hitler based his sterilisation program of 'undesirables' on the US's program of the sterilisation of Native peoples. It would be done using radiation and while the 'victim' filled a form. It would be done without their knowledge. The US is evil but their actions are excused as they are 'protecting their citizens'. Quote Caliph of The Caliphate of Arabia. Caliph of the Islamic State of Arabia. Principle of The Principality of Chechnya. Grand Emir of The Emirate of The Caucus. Emperor of the Empire of Persia. Sultan of The Sultanates of Turkey and The Crimea. Czar of the Tsardom of The Balkans. Archon of The Archonate of Greece. Supreme Consul of The Consulate of Italy. Shah of The Shahdom Of Khorason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 All of you have shown yourselves to be uncaring people and all show yourselves as western supremacists. A life is a life, wether it be a black life, a Hispanic or an Arab. The USA has done some pretty evil things. Hitler based his sterilisation program of 'undesirables' on the US's program of the sterilisation of Native peoples. It would be done using radiation and while the 'victim' filled a form. It would be done without their knowledge. The US is evil but their actions are excused as they are 'protecting their citizens'. We are uncaring because we don't like an organization that is grousomly executing countless people and posting videos of it on the internet as if these actions are "cool" or "the divine will of a loving God"? Yes, because we don't hate our own governments enough to start sawing innocent peoples heads off with hunting knives, we are uncaring people...... The US government also experimented on it's own citizens with all sorts of disturbing shit that killed or screwed people up for life. Forget sterilizing native Americans. We slaughtered them all in a genocide that makes the holocaust look cute and cuddly. The Germans took over half of Europe and slaughtered millions of people. But this is 2016. So which time period are we using for a comparison? 2 Quote _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haylz Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 I don't agree with anyone who puts innocent people in danger! I have nothing against those who practice any type of religion as long as they do not force their religion on others! Everyone's free to do their own thing and as long as that does not hurt others let them be! If the Islamic state was to come to the uk and be ok with what they saw and live peacefully there is no harm there! Personally I do not have time for religion and I wouldn't want anyone forcing me to practice theirs! The Islamic state is portrayed here if you don't practice Islam we will kill you. I don't slate Islam it's each to their own I have many Muslim friends but if they were to force me to practice their religion in my own country yes Islamic state would then be wrong. Anyway anyone that kills innocent people regardless of religion is wrong. Allot of the British people didn't agree to the uk bombing Syria yet I'm sure the British people will pay for it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ap Ioan Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 All of you have shown yourselves to be uncaring people and all show yourselves as western supremacists. A life is a life, wether it be a black life, a Hispanic or an Arab. The USA has done some pretty evil things. Hitler based his sterilisation program of 'undesirables' on the US's program of the sterilisation of Native peoples. It would be done using radiation and while the 'victim' filled a form. It would be done without their knowledge. The US is evil but their actions are excused as they are 'protecting their citizens'. I have seen some pretty idiotic posts on these forums, but I think this takes the biscuit...... Quote Still a man hears what he wants to hearAnd disregards the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abu Haddad Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I have seen some pretty idiotic posts on these forums, but I think this takes the biscuit......Firstly biscuits are tasty.Secondly, you assume it is idiotic becuase it scrutinises your corrupt and EVIL government. The US has CAUSED hundreds of thousands of deaths. You may deny it, but in their search for global domination and conquest of innocent men, women and children, their 'peaceful' aims to seize resources from needy nations, the USA has killed more people than supposed terrorists. 911 killed approx 3000 people. The war on terror caused hundreds of thousands deaths of innocent civilians. If you have watched Iron Man 3 you can understand why the US uses terror to disguise their true aim. I am not biased in my opinion and I would say the same for the UK government. It takes anyone with half a brain to understand the immorality of the US Quote Caliph of The Caliphate of Arabia. Caliph of the Islamic State of Arabia. Principle of The Principality of Chechnya. Grand Emir of The Emirate of The Caucus. Emperor of the Empire of Persia. Sultan of The Sultanates of Turkey and The Crimea. Czar of the Tsardom of The Balkans. Archon of The Archonate of Greece. Supreme Consul of The Consulate of Italy. Shah of The Shahdom Of Khorason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Mcfloyd Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) stupid comment so deleted Edited January 10, 2016 by Jack Mcfloyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 lets say the US killed 800,000 people the US is 239 years old, that mean they average 3347 people killed per year. ISIS is 12 years old and killed 170,000 people in Iraq that means the killed 14166 people on average in iraq alone where are you getting those numbers from? in the civil war alone, americans killed 600,000 other americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 lets say the US killed 800,000 people the US is 239 years old, that mean they average 3347 people killed per year. ISIS is 12 years old and killed 170,000 people in Iraq that means the killed 14166 people on average in iraq alone We've killed a hell of a lot more than 800,000 people. Quote _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Mcfloyd Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 We've killed a hell of a lot more than 800,000 people. i know adu just said hundreds of thousands i was just proving him wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manas Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 look bro when there is east there must be a west.we cant define light in absence of dark.life has only two truths.1.birth,2.death.except these nothing can stay here for long.try to live your life.try to help other.intolerance is bad for both east and west 1 Quote Manas.... BLACK KNIGHTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Most veterans I've met are pricks. I wouldn't trust them if I were leader at all. So whats your beef with veterans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 So whats your beef with veterans? sounds like he thinks they're pricks 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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