Sir Scarfalot

Better answer: Don't fall for protection rackets, build a military and/or join an alliance instead.

Riiiight here! Scarfy: BK too stronk, disband IQ when, NPO is still #1 in several dedgames, NPO could cause dedgame, EMC was an inside job, we can't expect IQ to choose to give up hegemony if they got it, blah blah I has experience blah blah blah [scarfposting intensifies] Response: fake news, NPO's past isn't relevant to the present, u were never there, BK stronk, join BK, EMC evil, muh balance, why didn't you call out TKR when they were #1, ur biased [derailment intensifies] ----- Ok that about settles that, please continue with the thread properly; there's not nearly enough BK STRONK in it. 142 members and yet of the 9 times I can find the term "BK STRONK" posted in the thread most of them are from NPO and, uh, myself.

I didn't say anything about BC; and you can clearly see that some individual alliances in Vanguard are in fact IQ protectorates.

Boss, I was talking about this war not the one ages ago... which I was on your side for

Pretty much this. Having just one protector, even a strong one, leaves you extremely vulnerable once that protector is already engaged in a losing war. See stratagem #5. Vanguard is a strong enough minisphere to not be worth raiding even whilst their protectors are otherwise engaged, which is why this kind of thing hasn't happened to them yet. (IQ being in a position to potentially actually protect them helps too.) Realistically though, TKRsphere has a lot of reasons to consider hitting IQ protectorates. It really does work both ways; now that TKR is already engaged with basically everyone to the point of being fully slotted already, what incentives are there for them to just restrict their targets to the ones actively hitting them? What could IQ/Syndisphere do if TKRsphere expanded the war to their protectorates after all? Declare double war? See stratagem #2.

To be fair, "Active in the last 7 days" means that Mitsuru really did go inactive, and their last forum activity was on Friday, so at least Mitsuru isn't doing the thing where "IRL gets in the way" but somehow still have the opportunity to post. Still doesn't look great though.

You're absolutely correct on most points, but you've still got a few things wrong. Now, I don't blame you for getting defensive since my arguments have no doubt been repeated by IQ's opponents many times for their own political (and deeply hypocritical) self-interest, but you're assuming my own motivations without interacting with me nor knowing where my arguments are coming from yourself. Yes, I do have issues with different iterations of communities from a dozen other long-dead realms; not NPO specifically but a hundred other communities that followed the same playbook, the same pattern, having the same pressures and responding in the same, objectively correct ways, resulting in the same doom. I'm not basing my concerns on any hearsay nor bias against NPO but upon years and years of failing to prevent nation sims from dying. As for me "not seeming to have an issue with TKR", well, that's mostly true. Exactly as true as it is of me not having any issues with IQ. I don't blame either of you for taking the best options available to you. The reason I haven't been historically as outspoken against TKR is due to how much of a threat I've seen them truly represent, relative to the power and potential that I see in Syndisphere and IQ since I started. Look at it this way: TKR has and had a very high score, and also a very high score per capita. Both are indeed problems just as you describe, but they are not nor have they ever been insurmountable ones, as the last few days clearly prove. Meanwhile, IQ and Syndisphere have very high scores, yet relatively low scores per capita. These are both problems as well, but to my limited experience as a raider and guerilla fighter having a low score per capita is just as powerful as a high score per capita in different and potentially worse ways. You have more room to grow, more potential speed of growth, and a wider range of power projection than the whales of TKRsphere. Those statements are not shade nor complaints, simply facts. Now, it must be repeated that all of this is not your fault; you're playing the game and acting in the most valid way to achieve victory over your rivals. Nor is it TKR's fault for acting in the best ways they can to achieve victory over their rivals. The problem here is that as long as victory is something that people strive for, then balance is something against everyone's self-interest since it's the exact opposite of victory. And there's no culpability, no blame; simply a pattern of the best intentions and the smartest decisions always leading up to the worst possible outcome for everyone. EMC breaking up EMC is one of the only instances I've ever seen of anyone successfully and intentionally breaking free from the pattern of unstable equilibrium, but even THAT didn't really happen until much later... and not without a lot of pressure towards that end from EMC's rivals anyway. Look, it's getting wall of texty so I'll just end with these rhetorical questions. Can we expect IQ to break up like EMC did, if ever IQ wins a similar form of easy-mode hegemony? More importantly perhaps, would it even be fair to expect that of you?

I don’t have any particular problem with NPO. Rather, I have a problem with alliances, any alliances, becoming overly powerful and seeking to “win”; not a war, but the game wholesale. I am concerned about NPO because NPO has been #1 before; not here perhaps but in a few “comparable situations” (by which I mean nation sim browser games) nonetheless. Nation sims that, be it due to NPO or not, have either died or have long since shed any semblance of vitality. I speak out because I have been working towards the same thing for many years now: to solve the problem of unstable balance, or at least to forestall the (insofar as I can tell) inevitable final consolidation of uncontestable power that causes the end of the game in which it happens. A dozen times I’ve fought my butt off to keep a dozen games alive, and every time I have failed, to the detriment of all the players in those games... including if not especially the ones that resented and resisted my efforts the most. In the words of a certain grey wizard: I’m not trying to rob you! I’m trying to help you.

Ah, another convert from farmer to missiler! I’m glad to see someone’s willing to give their opponent a compliment~

Did you check to see if your displayed radiation index included global radiation level? I'm fairly certain the numbers add up if you add global radiation to regional radiation levels, at least they did when I last looked.

42k score, 34 members, scores ranging from 500 to 2487. Their upper tier is right in our range, in fact...

Because NPO being the #1 alliance has always meant good things for the game in which it happens ? Well, I'd been waiting for the right time, and this occasion seems to fit the bill. This tribute is for @Nizam Adrienne

Okay, no, no, that post gets a downvote for sheer tl;dr. It could only be worse if you'd copypasted timecube...

Figures, protectorates are prime targets after their protector gets rolled. Well good luck, keep it clean and all.

Did 5 minutes ago, post the thread alreadyy

Sure, sure, it's just that if your opinion isn't that it should be the Great Sock War then your opinion is objectively wrong

Yep. Buy food before it hits 300 ppu; they're going to be throwing a lot of nukes as the conventional forces fall.

There's one of these every whale war... @Angel Lara just be glad they haven't irradiated farms to -100% production. Again

What I'm saying is that both IQ and TKRsphere are defensive blocs with a history of consolidating and protecting their tier and mostly declaring dogpiles as far as I'm aware, but now the potential hegemons have more players. EMC actually split up, but is there any guarantee that we'll see that happen again? And if it doesn't, what can we expect for the future but stagnation? The hell of the situation is that it's in anyone's best interests to claim dominance and keep growing uncontested, and nobody can be reasonably blamed for acting in their own interests nor expected to act against their own interests. That people have in the past (TJest, EMC breaking up) are to my experience extraordinary circumstances that aren't Yes, exactly, I agree with you completely. It's just, TKRsphere has the upper tier consolidated... and IQ has the middle tier consolidated. And IQ has more players and therefore more potential cities to bring to bear. TKRsphere was vulnerable to this kind of war, but will IQ ever be? It wouldn't be in your interest to allow IQ to be vulnerable, and like I said you can't reasonably be blamed for acting in your own interests nor expected to act against your interests. The issue is, anyone becoming the EMC still causes the same problems for everyone, even if it's you. Your arguments would be more reassuring if NPO wasn't poised to take the #1 score slot in a second game while de-facto allied to the last hegemons of this game, but fair enough.

So, it's papers please? But there already was a war called that so no

I'd say its less than a few

Exactly, this guy gets it

Well, it seems we're agreed then. Hopefully my fears aren't justified ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also I edited the hell out of my post due to tremendously bad formatting, would you be so kind as to re-quote me please?

(Spoilered because wordy scarfpost wall o text, tl;dr at bottom) Tl;dr: EMC is still EMC, even if it's IQ or Syndisphere. I have no idea what you're talking about. All I know is that I'm seeing a coalition of over half of the game dogpiling the top sphere. As good as that is, there still would be a problem if you guys decided to take that power and sit on it, playing the same easy-mode game as TKRsphere. And hey, maybe you won't; but when it comes down to it, that's your choice to make. I only hope you're wise enough to not be hypocritical and not do exactly what you're condemning TKRsphere for.

While true, your bloc has almost exactly the same problems for exactly the same reasons; the main difference is that TKRsphere is safer for whales while IQ and Syndisphere are fundamentally safer for lower tiers and newbies. This momentum constantly builds upon itself, results in the same compounding growth albeit with different particulars, and results in the same resentment/realpolitik against you, and if you end up truly unconquerable... then the game is over, and we're right back to CN-style stagnation. You've taken the easy-mode approach just as hard as EMC ever has, you realize that right? If your bloc gains the perception of being risk-free easy growth land, then you haven't defeated EMC... you've become it. TKRsphere, IQ, and Syndisphere all represent exactly the same balance problems in that regard. I trust you understand that.