Should guns be banned?

[Antonius Maximus]

Ah yes a singular non-white president in a sea of nothing but white presidents. This still doesn't change the fact that non-white communities are targeted by state violence and exploitation, dehumanization, mass incarceration, smear campaigns and defacto second-class citizenship.

So are you just going to ignore the fact that blacks and latinos make themselves targets for state violence and mass incarceration by committing a vastly disproportionate number of crimes? Look at Indians (subcontinent) and other Asians. They're doing fine, and they're not white. They just behave.

[Kyubnyan]

Ah yes a singular non-white president in a sea of nothing but white presidents. This still doesn't change the fact that non-white communities are targeted by state violence and exploitation, dehumanization, mass incarceration, smear campaigns and defacto second-class citizenship.

After seeing how you respond in many debate threads I am convinced that you are either a troll or just very stupid.

[Solomon]

So are you just going to ignore the fact that blacks and latinos make themselves targets for state violence and mass incarceration by committing a vastly disproportionate number of crimes?

Please explain what "targets for state violence" means.

[Hysteria]

I don't think banning guns is an option. However strict gun education and back ground check requirements would solve a lot of gun violence problems.

[Grady]

Well this was a very interesting thread. Didn't read a lot of the more stupid arguments. Shout out to a fellow Montana boy, Sheepy. So you all are going to think I am extra crazy. Which I may be, but I believe in the Constitution and our rights as Americans. The true reason that we have firearms is so that we can repel Federal encroachments. Basically, we have guns so that we can kill Federal military and Federal agents if we have to. When the Constitution was being written, and thus the Bill of Rights, the founders had just come out of a very intense war with their government. These guys had just successfully waged war against the largest and most powerful government in the world. They knew the importance of being able to defend yourself against tyrants. Now we all know the second amendment. That may not be enough for some people. People will argue about the "prefatory clause" and how the "militia" is simply the military or the National Guard. First of all, this understanding is wrong. There are two, some would argue three, levels of the "militia". I should start off by saying this. The Founders didn't really want a standing army like we know today. They wanted a very small standing military, it was to be one-one hundredth of the total population of the nation or one-twenty fifth of all able bodied men, see Federalist No. 46. Instead of a military, we were supposed to have a militia. The militia then would have been defined as how it was back then. Average men who left their families and jobs to take up arms. Citizen soldiers. In this day and age, many people believe that the militia is the National Guard. This understanding is wrong. According to the United States Code, Title 10, Section 311; the militia is defined as follows.

 

"(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

  (b The classes of the militia are—

    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

Notice the two tiered militia. First we have the actual standing militia, or the National Guard. Secondly, we have everybody else. This literally encompasses every single male citizen, or those wanting to be a citizen, of the United States of America(I know women aren't included in this but societal changes and various court cases showing precedence would include women in the modern understanding of this). I would assume most state constitutions include a definition like this. I am too lazy to dig out my Montana State Constitution, but I know it has a broad definition of militia like this. Hopefully this should provide some helpful background as to why we have weapons and who should have weapons. Honestly, I believe any gun control law requires a constitutional amendment before it can legally have and power as law. Thanks for reading my rant. I will include links to my references below.

 

U.S.C, Title 10, Sub. Title A, Pt. 1, Ch. 13, Sec. 311.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

Federalist Papers. I recommend reading the high 20's. Especially #28 and all the 40's. I referenced #46. 

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1404/1404-h/1404-h.htm

Here is a modern translation for easier reading.

http://freedom-school.com/law/federalist-papers-in-modern-language.pdf

Thanks to whoever started this topic. I love talking about this kind of stuff.

 

Edit: Sorry for the formatting and font going wacky. I don't know what I did.

Edited August 8, 2015 by GradyTheGreat

[Jefferson Davis III]

Where on gods green earth did you get the impression that I was cool with other empires? I'm opposed to that !@#$ everywhere. It just so happens right now the American empire is the most powerful one right now.

Oh, so you are an anarchist? duping crap on who ever happens to be in power. Lets make something clear, every country has had its "growing pains" its called trial and error. No system is perfect, and things evolve as time moves on, but the US has the longest lasting government in the world, despite being one of the youngest, I summarize that we have done a dang fine job of figuring things out right before it killed us. And we are not an Empire, a bureaucracy is a better description. You think people are being targeted because they are black, Hispanic, or anything other than white? Mind you, African Americans make up 19% of the population, but a single white cop, shoots a black male, who was much bigger, stronger and had already assaulted him, and was reaching for the officer's firearm, and then this cop is accused of murder while just doing his job? no, there is no race problem, the media, in there desperate desire to make money and have influence stretch the truth, bend the truth, and then bold face lie just to make people worried, scared, and down right angry. If the media was completely truthful and nothing but truthful, then there would be no race problem. But people like Al Sharpten and Hillary Clinton keep blowing things out of proportion!

[Antonius Maximus]

Please explain what "targets for state violence" means.

It includes forcible arrest, and deadly force when that fails.

[Big Brother]

@Emily....so what country are you from then? It must be so much better than the U.S. with no evil atrocities of it's own. I mean no other country in the world has ever had slavery or treated certain groups of people as second class citizens denying them rights that they might otherwise be quilified for if it weren't for the color of the skin or their religious believes. Also, all news articles on-line are 100% completely unbiased and accurate......how do I know this.....I read it on the internet...duh!

 

How typical. As soon as someone points out truthful errors about your own country, you start blustering about how other places have been, or are just as bad. Just admit your country has issues. Everything Emily has pointed out in this thread, is very real. The United States has an enormous race problem, and if you can't see it you're either horribly uninformed, brainwashed, or you refuse to see the truth. Stupid, ignorant white people.

 

People of color are most definitely disproportionately suspected of committing crimes (racial profiling), the entire developed world knows this, people in tiny villages in Switzerland know this, the only people who deny it are white Americans who apparently don't know their heads from their asses. Seriously, this is an accepted fact in most countries and yet people somehow manage to delude themselves into believing you don't have a problem with racism or that "the media" is creating some kind of pseudo race war. Oh and, bringing up how black people or other people of color supposedly commit so many more crimes than white people is nothing but a simple derailing tactic to distract people from the real issue at hand; that people of color are essentially treated as second rate citizens, who are persecuted and discriminated against on a daily basis, not only by their "fellow Americans", but by the government who is supposed to protect them. If your government actually provided equal rights and opportunities for everyone, regardless of color, instead of the systematic, institutional racism we see today, fewer people of color would be pushed into criminal activity. Right now, your government is essentially intentionally making life more difficult for people of color, so more of them live in low income areas, and more of them rely on criminal activities to sustain themselves and their families. And then you have the audacity to criticize them for a situation that your government forced them into. You basically still have slaves in the United States, except now you imprison them first and it's sponsored by your government.

 

It's almost unbelievable that people still have to be convinced that these things are real and happening. For people who are so concerned with government tyranny, you sure are good at turning a blind eye against it when it happens to people who aren't white.

 

@Jefferson Davis III

You're a lunatic and no one should ever take anything you say seriously. Please don't ever vote on anything.

[Thalmor]

 

''...that people of color are essentially treated as second rate citizens, who are persecuted and discriminated against on a daily basis, not only by their "fellow Americans", but by the government who is supposed to protect them. If your government actually provided equal rights and opportunities for everyone, regardless of color, instead of the systematic, institutional racism we see today, fewer people of color would be pushed into criminal activity.''

 

How does the government of the United States persecuted and discriminate, fail to provide equal rights and opportunities, and push systematical discrimination against minorities?

 

EDIT: Or should I ask, how does it do so in 2015?

Edited August 9, 2015 by Thalmor

[Alice Lune]

Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

 

Ban the Bullet.

 

That would work.

 

Mike goes to the local gunstore. "I'd like a shotgun, please."

 

The shopkeeper says, "Here, no license necessary. But I can't sell you the bullets."

 

Mike fumes, "How the heck am I going to catch a deer without bullets?"

 

"Use traps," the shopkeeper says as he sells another gun to another customer without selling the bullet as well.

 

10 years later. Everyone has a bullet making machine.

 

Concealed carry can stop them. At that drawing event, a fat cop killed 2 terrorists with a Glock. And you have to have a permit from the ATF to have full-auto firing guns higher than a certain caliber. 

 

Any idea what gun you want? 

 

I don't know, I'd really like one of those small but elegant guns. I'm currently in love with Glock 19's appearance.

[Kyubnyan]

How typical. As soon as someone points out truthful errors about your own country, you start blustering about how other places have been, or are just as bad. Just admit your country has issues. Everything Emily has pointed out in this thread, is very real. The United States has an enormous race problem, and if you can't see it you're either horribly uninformed, brainwashed, or you refuse to see the truth. Stupid, ignorant white people.

 

People of color are most definitely disproportionately suspected of committing crimes (racial profiling), the entire developed world knows this, people in tiny villages in Switzerland know this, the only people who deny it are white Americans who apparently don't know their heads from their asses. Seriously, this is an accepted fact in most countries and yet people somehow manage to delude themselves into believing you don't have a problem with racism or that "the media" is creating some kind of pseudo race war. Oh and, bringing up how black people or other people of color supposedly commit so many more crimes than white people is nothing but a simple derailing tactic to distract people from the real issue at hand; that people of color are essentially treated as second rate citizens, who are persecuted and discriminated against on a daily basis, not only by their "fellow Americans", but by the government who is supposed to protect them. If your government actually provided equal rights and opportunities for everyone, regardless of color, instead of the systematic, institutional racism we see today, fewer people of color would be pushed into criminal activity. Right now, your government is essentially intentionally making life more difficult for people of color, so more of them live in low income areas, and more of them rely on criminal activities to sustain themselves and their families. And then you have the audacity to criticize them for a situation that your government forced them into. You basically still have slaves in the United States, except now you imprison them first and it's sponsored by your government.

 

It's almost unbelievable that people still have to be convinced that these things are real and happening. For people who are so concerned with government tyranny, you sure are good at turning a blind eye against it when it happens to people who aren't white.

 

@Jefferson Davis III

You're a lunatic and no one should ever take anything you say seriously. Please don't ever vote on anything.

I don't want a lecture about our country brainwashing us from Big Brother.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Kyubey

[WISD0MTREE]

I don't think banning guns is an option. However strict gun education and back ground check requirements would solve a lot of gun violence problems.

We already have background checks. Care to elaborate? 

 

I don't know, I'd really like one of those small but elegant guns. I'm currently in love with Glock 19's appearance.

Glock 19s shoot really well. I love them. 

 

I don't want a lecture about our country brainwashing us from Big Brother.

kek

[Lan]

We already have background checks. Care to elaborate? 

 

Glock 19s shoot really well. I love them. 

 

kek

I think he means universal background checks for any and all gun sales. 

Example: I can buy an assault rifle online, no questions asked at all. Especially in states where guns do not have to be registered, nobody would ever know anything about any transactions. So even felons can buy guns pretty easily.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Lan

[WISD0MTREE]

I think he means universal background checks for any and all gun sales. 

Example: I can buy an assault rifle online, no questions asked at all. Especially in states where guns do not have to be registered, nobody would ever know anything about any transactions. So even felons can buy guns pretty easily.

The only problem with this is, you already have to have a background check for online sales. 

 

Source: I bought a gun online. 

[Lan]

The only problem with this is, you already have to have a background check for online sales. 

 

Source: I bought a gun online. 

I've never bought a gun online, but I've seen people buy/sell guns and ammo online and questions are never asked. Not in private sales anyway. 

I've seen people sell guns to people in about 10 minutes. And like 8 of those minutes were spent driving to meet up. The rest was just money and guns swapping hands. Kinda creepy TBH, but why not? I don't think background checks would do much anyway. Not every psychopath has a felony record. In fact, most probably don't.

Actually, to add to that, I've never bought a gun in my life. But I still own one. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Lan

[WISD0MTREE]

I've never bought a gun online, but I've seen people buy/sell guns and ammo online and questions are never asked. Not in private sales anyway. 

I've seen people sell guns to people in about 10 minutes. And like 8 of those minutes were spent driving to meet up. The rest was just money and guns swapping hands. Kinda creepy TBH, but why not? I don't think background checks would do much anyway. Not every psychopath has a felony record. In fact, most probably don't.

Actually, to add to that, I've never bought a gun in my life. But I still own one. 

Do you happen to have any sources? 

 

And what gun? 

Edited August 10, 2015 by WISD0MTREE

[Jefferson Davis III]

I think he means universal background checks for any and all gun sales. 

Example: I can buy an assault rifle online, no questions asked at all. Especially in states where guns do not have to be registered, nobody would ever know anything about any transactions. So even felons can buy guns pretty easily.

actually, you are partially correct. You can purchase the firearm on the internet but it cannot be delivered to your home. this is because of the mail order gun law of 1964. The gun has to be delivered to a LICENSED gun dealer where you must go, and pass a background check and show an id before picking it up. However, felons do have the all famous black market, through the mexican cartels and other smuggling means, it isn't that difficult. I knew a guy in high school who could get me an uzi if I had the money, I know, because he provided everything to everyone, from cigarettes, to m9s, but he only sold to people he new were safe, after all, profits are no good if they shoot you later. I guess that makes him a criminal with a heart of gold. But you get my point.

[Jefferson Davis III]

Also, there was something in the beginning of this thread that I would like to point out, AR does NOT stand for assault rifle, it stands for ArmaLite, the Designer and original manufacturer of all AR varients when the gun was invented. Also, AR-15's do serve a good hunting purpose. I personally own one, mine has a 9 power scope, bipod, is completely camo, custom barrel, etc. I load 5 round mags and use it for hunting, I bagged 3 deer last year. It is very accurate, easy to use, and easy to maintain. But I can just as easily detach the scope and put in one of my 30 round standard mags and Im ready for the apocalypse. Just my two scents.

[Lan]

Do you happen to have any sources? 

 

And what gun? 

All sorts of guns. Pistols, assault rifles. This is how an older friend of mine has made a lot of money. He stockpiled many guns and ammo over his lifetime but now he is old and has decided to sell them. He does it all online, in private, no questions asked. And what source can I give when it's simply a daily thing I've watched. I don't follow people around with a camera and like I said, it's private. There are no receipts. There are no forms. It's two people selling something like one would shop at a garage sale.

 

 

actually, you are partially correct. You can purchase the firearm on the internet but it cannot be delivered to your home. this is because of the mail order gun law of 1964. The gun has to be delivered to a LICENSED gun dealer where you must go, and pass a background check and show an id before picking it up. However, felons do have the all famous black market, through the mexican cartels and other smuggling means, it isn't that difficult. I knew a guy in high school who could get me an uzi if I had the money, I know, because he provided everything to everyone, from cigarettes, to m9s, but he only sold to people he new were safe, after all, profits are no good if they shoot you later. I guess that makes him a criminal with a heart of gold. But you get my point.

I'm talking about a private deal here. Two random people agreeing to buy/sell guns. Nobody outside of who is told knows anything. 

I'm not talking about a store. I'm talking about two completely average people, like you and me. Also, it's not illegal for me to carry a gun in my car and drive it a few miles away. Happens all the time here. I've been in a car and pulled over with guns in the car. Nothing happens, the officer is not surprised either. He just asks where the guns are and maybe asks us to step out of the car while he writes a speeding ticket. 

Perfectly normal.

[Jefferson Davis III]

All sorts of guns. Pistols, assault rifles. This is how an older friend of mine has made a lot of money. He stockpiled many guns and ammo over his lifetime but now he is old and has decided to sell them. He does it all online, in private, no questions asked. And what source can I give when it's simply a daily thing I've watched. I don't follow people around with a camera and like I said, it's private. There are no receipts. There are no forms. It's two people selling something like one would shop at a garage sale.

 

 

I'm talking about a private deal here. Two random people agreeing to buy/sell guns. Nobody outside of who is told knows anything. 

I'm not talking about a store. I'm talking about two completely average people, like you and me. Also, it's not illegal for me to carry a gun in my car and drive it a few miles away. Happens all the time here. I've been in a car and pulled over with guns in the car. Nothing happens, the officer is not surprised either. He just asks where the guns are and maybe asks us to step out of the car while he writes a speeding ticket. 

Perfectly normal.

I never said it wasn't illegal to have them in your car, i said it was illegal to ship them via USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc to your home, when shipped with a shipping company, they must be sent to a store. of course you can hand deliver them. And I know many people who sell privately. I do lots of business with my uncle. And of course there is always that wonderful logic, that laws don't mean jack, bad guys will do whatever they want.

[Lan]

I never said it wasn't illegal to have them in your car, i said it was illegal to ship them via USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc to your home, when shipped with a shipping company, they must be sent to a store. of course you can hand deliver them. And I know many people who sell privately. I do lots of business with my uncle. And of course there is always that wonderful logic, that laws don't mean jack, bad guys will do whatever they want.

And they will. Not only that, bad guys don't have to be traditional criminals. Bad guys could be the next cop who pulls you over and shoots you in the face for no reason. Or it could be your own soldiers who decide to shoot a bunch of college kids for protesting the Vietnam war. It could be anyone. 

Further more, there is that wonderful logic that criminals obey the law. Which is why they are criminals. 

In conclusion, I stand by my original statement that either everyone should own a gun, or nobody should own a gun. Either way I don't care. But those are the only two fair options one can present, no?

Edited August 10, 2015 by Lan

[Jefferson Davis III]

personally, i agree with the switzerland concept, every household is required to own a handgun, all men over 18 and women over 20 are trained in firearms safety and the government provides a safe for the handgun. They have crime yes, but very few home invasions. criminals are always going to have guns, whether they are organized or just tragically become mentally ill. In Britain, it is illegal to own a handgun out right, but muggings and robberies with firearms involved are increasing every year.

[Greatnate]

personally, i agree with the switzerland concept, every household is required to own a handgun, all men over 18 and women over 20 are trained in firearms safety and the government provides a safe for the handgun. They have crime yes, but very few home invasions. criminals are always going to have guns, whether they are organized or just tragically become mentally ill. In Britain, it is illegal to own a handgun out right, but muggings and robberies with firearms involved are increasing every year.

 

The Switzerland concept is for long guns, what kind of terrible national militia is armed solely with handguns?

[Lan]

personally, i agree with the switzerland concept, every household is required to own a handgun, all men over 18 and women over 20 are trained in firearms safety and the government provides a safe for the handgun. They have crime yes, but very few home invasions. criminals are always going to have guns, whether they are organized or just tragically become mentally ill. In Britain, it is illegal to own a handgun out right, but muggings and robberies with firearms involved are increasing every year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland#Gun_crime

 

Perfect! It looks like it really does work!

[Jefferson Davis III]

The Switzerland concept is for long guns, what kind of terrible national militia is armed solely with handguns?

completely false, each house is protected by handguns, why? I want you to take a yard stick, and move around your house like you would if you were looking for an intruder. they are not easy to use in houses, and pistols are much more effective in these situations. As for the militia training, this training is for long guns and handguns, just because I didn't state what guns they use does not make it false, and just look at Laffinty's post, a very very low murder rate.