Rivers of Blood

[Rozalia]

if i immigrated to america from some other country and was in every other way still exactly the same person i am you'd be trying to get rid of me

 

actually, in the french revolution, the towns that were most anti-revolution were the ones who were the poorest and as a result tended to still live with/see their lords and members of the local clergy on a daily basis. dehumanization of people you don't see every day is a lot easier - exposure to people, while it can breed resentment, also breeds understanding and empathy

 

Thats quite the attack. If you were here integrated and generally doing things right then my words to you would be to naturalise yourself. Also while at it while not necessary you may want to change your name/s slightly, or hell, go full hog with some something fun. 

 

I certainly wouldn't deny that could be the case for some people.

[Hereno]

we have a duty to break unjust laws - thomas jefferson paraphrased

 

e: to be clear this is a response to "i can't believe people defend illegals"

 

i defend all sorts of illegal shit because the law and morality are not the same thing

 

it's sorta hard for me to even understand how people can really think that following laws are automatically moral, but i guess if you actually believe we're a democracy it sorta makes sense from a "keep the democracy going" standpoint

Edited March 30, 2016 by Hereno

[Sabcat]

 

 

Many elements to me seem to have been accurate, the concentration of immigrants and later their many children in large communities kills integration, anyone could tell you that but many people carry on pretending that it will all magically work out. He spoke of the dangers of multiculturalism and immigration and was met with grandstanding from the left wing, and the right wing believed it to be true but were too cowardly and also attacked. Even recently a MP and parliamentary candidate have been made to resign/sacked for saying they agreed with the message, that ultimately it was not wrong to refuse to tolerate. He was labeled a bigot, racist, racialist, whatever buzzword you want to use for merely speaking common sense, his words taken out of context (attributing other people's words to him for one) and reality ignored. 

 

 

Erm, I'm not sure that anyone on the right was scared to agree with Enoch then, it was only 4 years before this speech that the Tories in Smethwick used the slogan "if you want a !@#$ for a neighbour, vote Labour". 

 

As for the rest of it, if you think that "not wrong to refuse to tolerate" then you are racist, by definition.

[WISD0MTREE]

As for the rest of it, if you think that "not wrong to refuse to tolerate" then you are racist, by definition.

What if I refuse to tolerate women? Am I still a racist? What if I refuse to tolerate people who dye their hair? The LGBT community? Mailmen? Am I still racist then? 

 

Hey everybody! Dogs are racist because they don't tolerate mailmen! 

[Avruch]

Someone should go through and add up all the execrable philosophical positions Rozalia adopts. Last week he supports bestiality, this week he is a fascist white supremacist. Whatever will be next? 

[Hereno]

What if I refuse to tolerate women? Am I still a racist? What if I refuse to tolerate people who dye their hair? The LGBT community? Mailmen? Am I still racist then? 

 

Hey everybody! Dogs are racist because they don't tolerate mailmen!

you know damn well what context he's using that in, don't be dense.

[Rozalia]

we have a duty to break unjust laws - thomas jefferson paraphrased

 

e: to be clear this is a response to "i can't believe people defend illegals"

 

i defend all sorts of illegal shit because the law and morality are not the same thing

 

it's sorta hard for me to even understand how people can really think that following laws are automatically moral, but i guess if you actually believe we're a democracy it sorta makes sense from a "keep the democracy going" standpoint

 

Nothing unjust about border control. Lets say there were 100,000 bad dudes at the border, lets say they were all terrorists and a border guard would stop them as they'd vet them and find a passport that said "I'm a bad dude, a terrorist". Would you let them in? Yes, I am purposely being ridiculous.

 

Erm, I'm not sure that anyone on the right was scared to agree with Enoch then, it was only 4 years before this speech that the Tories in Smethwick used the slogan "if you want a !@#$ for a neighbour, vote Labour". 

 

As for the rest of it, if you think that "not wrong to refuse to tolerate" then you are racist, by definition.

 

There is a difference between the grassroots and the establishment. The people, the voters, can believe in something all the while the politicians are afraid to talk about. Take the support, out of nowhere according to some, for Trump for one example.

 

Lets say there was one of those new age cults, one of those that believes in the end of the world and thinks they should bring it about. It wrong to refuse to tolerate them? Or should we turn a blind eye until they start gassing people, with further plans to detonate nuclear weapons. 

 

Someone should go through and add up all the execrable philosophical positions Rozalia adopts. Last week he supports bestiality, this week he is a fascist white supremacist. Whatever will be next? 

 

I was holding a talk on the matter of bestiality just as I did Polygamy/Polyandry, nothing more. In regards to supporting I lean heavily on the side of yes for Polygamy/Polyandry, and moderately for Bestiality as no one could raise an actual point on why it's banned so my support only increased, as would anyone who is in the middle and wants to find a serious counter point. 

 

Now in regards to white supremacy. Enoch Powell wasn't a white supremacist and all this is on the issue of people not integrating, being inflamed by mass immigration, and shielded by political correctness. It's nearly 50 years on and it is interesting to me how correct it reads on those principles. 

Now in regards to myself I'm a Nationalist who believes in Cultural Homogeneity, race has nothing to do with it. Ethnic Nationalists turn far too many people off and should be more inclusive.  

 

Well if you want to add it all up then thats fine, sticking a National in front of something should work. Putting in front of Socialist doesn't work for obvious reasons but if you slap a Democratic in the middle then perhaps (National Democratic Socialist). Putting in front of Liberal so it becomes National Liberal may work too, though economically it wouldn't match. Putting it in front of Fascist... don't think that'd make sense, National Fascist? Does the National x Fascist = more Liberal than Liberals? In front of Communism, National Communism might work perhaps. 

 

Take your pick I guess.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Rozalia

[Hereno]

Nothing unjust about border control. Lets say there were 100,000 bad dudes at the border, lets say they were all terrorists and a border guard would stop them as they'd vet them and find a passport that said "I'm a bad dude, a terrorist". Would you let them in? Yes, I am purposely being ridiculous.

Border control isn't the issue, the issue is bad immigration policies. Sure, when you can't vet people and they can just do what they want, you're going to get some bad people crossing over who otherwise couldn't. But last I checked, rape and murder were both illegal in Mexico, and their prisons are a lot worse than ours are (somehow). This is a very small number of people we're talking about compared to the larger Spanish-speaking illegal immigrant population, and if we weren't trying to control the border so much in the first place, they wouldn't need to come here illegally. The whole reason they're trying to come here in the first place is because of capitalism - we have jobs that people aren't doing for the same reason that they have cartels running the show, poor environmental regulations, and a poorer quality of life overall. One of the biggest influences was the passing of NAFTA under Clinton.

 

So, like I normally say when confronted with hypotheticals, they're pretty useless compared to sound analysis of the specific situation and the material conditions surrounding it. Those who understand the problem in its totality and the "why" behind it are the ones fighting on behalf of the vastly decent population of illegals we have here. There's a reason that no politician has suggested "just imprison the ones who are actually guilty of serious crimes", and that's because it makes sense and doesn't allow the race card to be played. And let me be clear - the Republicans play it as much, if not more, than the Democrats. The media makes it about race for a reason, and the media is largely controlled by giant corporations with all sorts of business interests, not only directly, but through advertisement as well.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hereno

[Rozalia]

Border control isn't the issue, the issue is bad immigration policies. Sure, when you can't vet people and they can just do what they want, you're going to get some bad people crossing over who otherwise couldn't. But last I checked, rape and murder were both illegal in Mexico, and their prisons are a lot worse than ours are (somehow). This is a very small number of people we're talking about compared to the larger Spanish-speaking illegal immigrant population, and if we weren't trying to control the border so much in the first place, they wouldn't need to come here illegally. The whole reason they're trying to come here in the first place is because of capitalism - we have jobs that people aren't doing for the same reason that they have cartels running the show, poor environmental regulations, and a poorer quality of life overall. One of the biggest influences was the passing of NAFTA under Clinton.

 

So, like I normally say when confronted with hypotheticals, they're pretty useless compared to sound analysis of the specific situation and the material conditions surrounding it. Those who understand the problem in its totality and the "why" behind it are the ones fighting on behalf of the vastly decent population of illegals we have here. There's a reason that no politician has suggested "just imprison the ones who are actually guilty of serious crimes", and that's because it makes sense and doesn't allow the race card to be played. And let me be clear - the Republicans play it as much, if not more, than the Democrats. The media makes it about race for a reason, and the media is largely controlled by giant corporations with all sorts of business interests, not only directly, but through advertisement as well.

 

First of all the jobs not being done by people and are done by immigrants is the case because of the government turning a blind eye and secondly because of poor pay. If the government cracked down they likely wouldn't even need to enforce good wages to get people in those jobs.

Second, if you close them off and send a clear message the time of giving a soft hand is over then you cut down on the people who try to cross which in turn cuts down on the rapes that go on (the reason for Trump's rapist comment). 

 

The republicans support amnesty though... not all but even some who do are just lying for election purposes. When you have a democratic society something like that is in essence sabotage if the vast majority of the people in that group of illegals are going to vote one way. That in itself effects you negatively just as it does the other group of establishment politicians.

[Hereno]

First of all the jobs not being done by people and are done by immigrants is the case because of the government turning a blind eye and secondly because of poor pay. If the government cracked down they likely wouldn't even need to enforce good wages to get people in those jobs.

Second, if you close them off and send a clear message the time of giving a soft hand is over then you cut down on the people who try to cross which in turn cuts down on the rapes that go on (the reason for Trump's rapist comment). 

 

The republicans support amnesty though... not all but even some who do are just lying for election purposes. When you have a democratic society something like that is in essence sabotage if the vast majority of the people in that group of illegals are going to vote one way. That in itself effects you negatively just as it does the other group of establishment politicians.

illegals can't vote and the majority of hispanic americans are relatively conservative and highly against illegal immigration

 

there is no difference between a person and an illegal immigrant

 

the government doesn't turn a blind eye - this sounds to me like a conspiracy theory. thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants are caught and deported every year. businesses might turn a blind eye because they want the cheap labor, but a lot of those jobs actually pay pretty well. you can make almost twice what i'm making to pick fruit around here, per hour. the jobs that illegals get paid very little for are jobs like working in the kitchen at a restaurant that normally actually would be done by an american citizen or legal immigrant, but it is the companies who benefit from low wages and virtually no labor laws applying to these people. government has nothing to do with it.

 

as an aside, illegal immigrants are actually less likely to commit crimes than citizens here, studies have shown, if only because committing a crime here means getting deported.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hereno

[Rozalia]

illegals can't vote and the majority of hispanic americans are relatively conservative and highly against illegal immigration

 

there is no difference between a person and an illegal immigrant

 

the government doesn't turn a blind eye - this sounds to me like a conspiracy theory. thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants are caught and deported every year. businesses might turn a blind eye because they want the cheap labor, but a lot of those jobs actually pay pretty well. you can make almost twice what i'm making to pick fruit around here, per hour. the jobs that illegals get paid very little for are jobs like working in the kitchen at a restaurant that normally actually would be done by an american citizen or legal immigrant, but it is the companies who benefit from low wages and virtually no labor laws applying to these people. government has nothing to do with it.

 

as an aside, illegal immigrants are actually less likely to commit crimes than citizens here, studies have shown, if only because committing a crime here means getting deported.

 

I know that illegals can't vote, which is why I said when you give them the vote that it's sabotage. 

 

They could do more is what I was saying.

 

That actually matters all of 0. When an illegal commits a crime (murder, robbery, rape, so on) the reason people get angry isn't so much because, "all illegals are criminals", but because if said illegal had been stopped to begin with then the crime would not have happened. 

[Hereno]

I know that illegals can't vote, which is why I said when you give them the vote that it's sabotage. 

 

They could do more is what I was saying.

 

That actually matters all of 0. When an illegal commits a crime (murder, robbery, rape, so on) the reason people get angry isn't so much because, "all illegals are criminals", but because if said illegal had been stopped to begin with then the crime would not have happened.

everybody could do more about everything, that's pretty meaningless

 

nobody wants to let illegals vote, this is a non-issue that idk where you even got from

 

yeah well i understand why that makes people mad but guess what it's really not that big a problem it's just that it pisses people off a lot; usually people like you who are already biased against immigrants to begin with, so why should we or they care?

[Rozalia]

everybody could do more about everything, that's pretty meaningless

 

nobody wants to let illegals vote, this is a non-issue that idk where you even got from

 

yeah well i understand why that makes people mad but guess what it's really not that big a problem it's just that it pisses people off a lot; usually people like you who are already biased against immigrants to begin with, so why should we or they care?

 

Lets put it another way. When you talk of businesses abusing such workers they know it happens, everyone does pretty much but not a great deal is done.

 

Considering they want illegals to become citizens I do think it would be an issue. 

 

Because there is an actual valid reason behind such anger. Ignoring it and worse, downplaying and ridiculing a serious concern only leads towards people becoming more extreme and angry than the opposite. 

[Hereno]

Lets put it another way. When you talk of businesses abusing such workers they know it happens, everyone does pretty much but not a great deal is done.

 

Considering they want illegals to become citizens I do think it would be an issue. 

 

Because there is an actual valid reason behind such anger. Ignoring it and worse, downplaying and ridiculing a serious concern only leads towards people becoming more extreme and angry than the opposite. 

 

how do you expect the government to act when the government is, ultimately, controlled by the same businesses that you're upset with?

 

sure, there's a valid reason behind it, but that doesn't change reality. let me put it this way: it pisses me off that a lot of the people here are jerks, but i'm not going to suggest to sheepy that he bans everybody who i don't like, because that's unrealistic and never going to happen. application: yeah, you're right, if they had been stopped at the border, they wouldn't be committing those crimes. but how much do you think can really be done about it in the larger scope? should we just massacre all the illegals we find rather then deporting them? pull a saudi arabia and just imprison them for decades for minor crimes? as a humane and cosmopolitan society, at least to the people who are on our soil, there are certain things we have to do to actually be that. one of those things is not punishing 10,950,000 people for the crimes of 50,000, rather than just punishing those people and moving on with it. i don't actually expect people who are, say, robbed by illegal immigrants to be intelligent enough to not blame all illegal immigrants for that one !@#$ who is ruining everything, but yes it would be the right and correct thing to do.

[Rozalia]

how do you expect the government to act when the government is, ultimately, controlled by the same businesses that you're upset with?

 

sure, there's a valid reason behind it, but that doesn't change reality. let me put it this way: it pisses me off that a lot of the people here are jerks, but i'm not going to suggest to sheepy that he bans everybody who i don't like, because that's unrealistic and never going to happen. application: yeah, you're right, if they had been stopped at the border, they wouldn't be committing those crimes. but how much do you think can really be done about it in the larger scope? should we just massacre all the illegals we find rather then deporting them? pull a saudi arabia and just imprison them for decades for minor crimes? as a humane and cosmopolitan society, at least to the people who are on our soil, there are certain things we have to do to actually be that. one of those things is not punishing 10,950,000 people for the crimes of 50,000, rather than just punishing those people and moving on with it. i don't actually expect people who are, say, robbed by illegal immigrants to be intelligent enough to not blame all illegal immigrants for that one !@#$ who is ruining everything, but yes it would be the right and correct thing to do.

 

Well I don't, which is why someone who makes fixing immigration an issue is good. By fixing I mean with real solutions, not the usual platitudes from the "centrists".  

 

Deport them all and then let them come, but they must come legally. If they then commit a crime then it can at least be said there was nothing that could have been done, when vetted in the long process everything was green. I'm really not understanding the illegal support quite honestly. You got a person outside the country. You either A, let him come illegally and he could be who knows who, or B, he comes legally and he is checked out and likely accepted unless something bad is in there. What reason has a person to come illegally? Something to hide I'd think like perhaps they are a rapist, who knows? We certainly can't if he's coming illegally. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Rozalia

[Sabcat]

 

There is a difference between the grassroots and the establishment. The people, the voters, can believe in something all the while the politicians are afraid to talk about. Take the support, out of nowhere according to some, for Trump for one example.

 

Lets say there was one of those new age cults, one of those that believes in the end of the world and thinks they should bring it about. It wrong to refuse to tolerate them? Or should we turn a blind eye until they start gassing people, with further plans to detonate nuclear weapons. 

 

 

 

I don't see this grassroots support for the ideas of Powell, where is it? Sure, there's been various political groupings that have formed for one reason or another who have all claimed "Enoch was right" - BNP, NF, EDL, Britain First, BFF, BPP and a hundred other one man and his dog fascist groups in the UK, the only seam they can mine in this grass roots of which you speak is a few maladjusted idiots.

 

Trump hasn't come out of nowhere, 40 years of structural  oppression of the American working class (which they call the middle class, confusingly to me) starting with the oil shocks of the 70s, the collapse of Breton Woods and the fix of "Reaganomics" or neo-liberalism (Thatcherism as we call it here).

 

As for your doomsday cult, you're all over the place. You've gone from claiming it's ok to be intolerant of races/ethnicity and now you're on to behaviour. People have been intolerant of other people's behaviour for as long as there have been people. Race was only invented ~300 years ago.

[Rozalia]

I don't see this grassroots support for the ideas of Powell, where is it? Sure, there's been various political groupings that have formed for one reason or another who have all claimed "Enoch was right" - BNP, NF, EDL, Britain First, BFF, BPP and a hundred other one man and his dog fascist groups in the UK, the only seam they can mine in this grass roots of which you speak is a few maladjusted idiots.

 

Trump hasn't come out of nowhere, 40 years of structural  oppression of the American working class (which they call the middle class, confusingly to me) starting with the oil shocks of the 70s, the collapse of Breton Woods and the fix of "Reaganomics" or neo-liberalism (Thatcherism as we call it here).

 

As for your doomsday cult, you're all over the place. You've gone from claiming it's ok to be intolerant of races/ethnicity and now you're on to behaviour. People have been intolerant of other people's behaviour for as long as there have been people. Race was only invented ~300 years ago.

 

Actually there was plenty of support shown for Powell at the time, not in politics but from the common man. Now for the rest you're trying to frame it in a manner which I wasn't which is dishonest. The point being the basic principles of what was said is correct. A great many people believe that integration hasn't happened, that mass immigration only makes it worse, that political correctness has protected said people. That is how I'm framing it, you're going for the racist framing which is as I said, dishonest.

 

Which is why I said according to some, aka the establishment, it's media cretins, and another number of people. Don't attribute such things to me please.

 

... You are aware what I was referring to was an actual cult right? It's not my imaginary cult, it actually existed and all I was asking was if there was such a cult here if we should tolerate them or to harken back to what I said previously we should refuse to be tolerant of the intolerable. As for your race issue, thats on you not me as I support cultural homogeneity, so you're the one making it about race buddy. A bit racist yourself I'd think because it sounds like you think culturally people of other races can't be culturally the same as a white person. Nasty view that if so, don't be so discriminatory. 

[Sabcat]

Actually there was plenty of support shown for Powell at the time, not in politics but from the common man. Now for the rest you're trying to frame it in a manner which I wasn't which is dishonest. The point being the basic principles of what was said is correct. A great many people believe that integration hasn't happened, that mass immigration only makes it worse, that political correctness has protected said people. That is how I'm framing it, you're going for the racist framing which is as I said, dishonest.

 

Which is why I said according to some, aka the establishment, it's media cretins, and another number of people. Don't attribute such things to me please.

 

... You are aware what I was referring to was an actual cult right? It's not my imaginary cult, it actually existed and all I was asking was if there was such a cult here if we should tolerate them or to harken back to what I said previously we should refuse to be tolerant of the intolerable. As for your race issue, thats on you not me as I support cultural homogeneity, so you're the one making it about race buddy. A bit racist yourself I'd think because it sounds like you think culturally people of other races can't be culturally the same as a white person. Nasty view that if so, don't be so discriminatory. 

 

Sorry, I'm framing things as they are, in reality, it's you that is being fundamentally dishonest although nowhere near as cleverly as you think you are.

[Rozalia]

Sorry, I'm framing things as they are, in reality, it's you that is being fundamentally dishonest although nowhere near as cleverly as you think you are.

 

So what you're saying is that I'm not talking about the principles in the matter, I'm simply a racist. 

 

That I think Trump came out of nowhere, contrary to my own words because I was just lying for some reason.

 

That I invented a cult for an example and my cultural talk is really ethnic because I am again a racist.

 

That hit all the nails on the head? Try harder. If you want to call me a racist for daring to try to have a discussion on something then thats fine, do it and leave, just don't waste my time further with this nonsense of yours. 

[Sabcat]

So what you're saying is that I'm not talking about the principles in the matter, I'm simply a racist. 

 

That I think Trump came out of nowhere, contrary to my own words because I was just lying for some reason.

 

That I invented a cult for an example and my cultural talk is really ethnic because I am again a racist.

 

That hit all the nails on the head? Try harder. If you want to call me a racist for daring to try to have a discussion on something then thats fine, do it and leave, just don't waste my time further with this nonsense of yours. 

 

Such an angry young pup. When you say there's grass roots support for the ideas in the Powell speech, that the common man - who stands aside from the establishment - you're using on a well trodden path - hence the groups I mentioned. What you really mean is you, your dad and a couple of your mates. It's pathetically transparent.

 

Your reference to a cult (which I never claimed you invented) is as bizarre as it is stupid, the cult you're talking about has - and most don't - nothing at all to do with what you're talking about. They weren't a group that failed to integrate, they were indigenous, indeed they were a product of one of the most homogeneous cultures on the planet, which kind of pisses on your argument, such as it exists.

 

I suspect you are in the UK, which is a !@#$er really, sitting here as I am less than 10 miles from Powell's old constituency that we still have such numb nuts kicking about the place.

[Nationalist]

Many years ago the British Empire, an empire of the white British built on strength ruled half the world

 

Now it has collapsed under immigrants. 

 

If that isn't a lesson to the Lefties. I don't know what is. 

[Sabcat]

Many years ago the British Empire, an empire of the white British built on strength ruled half the world

 

Now it has collapsed under immigrants. 

 

If that isn't a lesson to the Lefties. I don't know what is. 

 

Really, you think immigration is the reason for the decline of British imperialism, are you on drugs?

[Nationalist]

Really, you think immigration is the reason for the decline of British imperialism, are you on drugs?

Mixing up of gene pools and culture is never a good idea. 

[Sabcat]

Mixing up of gene pools and culture is never a good idea. 

 

And your reason for thinking this is that it's what caused the demise of the British Empire?

[Rozalia]

Such an angry young pup. When you say there's grass roots support for the ideas in the Powell speech, that the common man - who stands aside from the establishment - you're using on a well trodden path - hence the groups I mentioned. What you really mean is you, your dad and a couple of your mates. It's pathetically transparent.

 

Your reference to a cult (which I never claimed you invented) is as bizarre as it is stupid, the cult you're talking about has - and most don't - nothing at all to do with what you're talking about. They weren't a group that failed to integrate, they were indigenous, indeed they were a product of one of the most homogeneous cultures on the planet, which kind of pisses on your argument, such as it exists.

 

I suspect you are in the UK, which is a !@#$er really, sitting here as I am less than 10 miles from Powell's old constituency that we still have such numb nuts kicking about the place.

 

A strike was done in support of him, but you're really trying to argue I said something which I didn't. What I said was that the anger against Multiculturalism/Mass Immigration/Political Correctness is increasing, something which aligns with the principles in the speech. Enoch's speech is from the 60s, I'd expect many to not be aware of it, however aware of it or no there a lot of people out there in agreement with it's principles. 

 

You're smart enough to see a very simple point so why do this? To begin with you're mixing the ethnic/cultural stuff with the tolerating stuff, I'll be nice and assume thats an honest mistake. So I was talking simply the tolerating aspect, so native or not is irrelevant. Now I asked you to imagine such a cult existed that had such mad views, do we tolerate it until they start gassing people or crack down on it early? As in refuse to tolerate that which is intolerable? Yes or no will do. 

 

You'd be a lot less angry with me if you weren't arguing against an invented version of me. As I said previously, the principles that a lack of integration would cause trouble, that mass immigration would inflame the matter further, and all this while shielded by political correctness was something I derived from his speech. I believe those basic principles in it to have been proven correct, we can see it easily enough today nearly 50 years on. Now if you believe that such things are incorrect then we can have a discussion. Saying I must secretly be a racist and am just framing things dishonestly ain't going to get you anywhere. So argue against those principles I said were proven correct if you're going to continue please.