Small vs Big government

[Doktor Avalanche]

No, but they do get the continuation of a society that lets them live so much better than the majority of humanity even as the distribution of labour piles higher and higher on the back of the working class.

 

Taxes are the small repairs keeping capitalism from collapsing under the weight of wealth accumulation. The small gains of the welfare state over the last 200 ish years are the only reason a good portion of humanity is even alive.

On the other foot, the Corporate Welfare State is the only reason much of that accumulated wealth is happening in the first place. I often wonder what would have happened if the Too Big To Fail bailout simply refused to "bail them out".

[Hao Huiyu]

I wish more people had faith in the human race to function without big corrupt government telling everyone what to do. Yes I think the government should encourage alternate energy sources, but when the government tries to fix the economy or really do anything to make the country successful it fails. I believe lassiez-faire is the smartest option for how the government should run

Considering that corporations can't even follow sensible things from the big corrupt Governments, I don't know why you'd think that they are somehow magically better - they are 100% about profit.

 

Illegal Logging - we only have one Earth,, why ruin it?

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/deforestation/deforestation_causes/illegal_logging/

 

Illegal Toxic Waste dump

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/europes-largest-illegal-toxic-dumping-site-discovered-in-southern-italy-an-area-with-cancer-rates-80-10327157.html

 

Tax Evasion - Gotta maximise those profits!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3139123/Amazon-pays-just-11-9m-tax-5-3bn-worth-UK-sales.html

 

US Healthcare - Compare it to the ones that are nationalised and don't spit out stories of people going bankrupt after injuries

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/images/publications/fund-report/2014/june/davis_mirror_2014_es1_for_web.jpg?h=511&w=740&la=en

 

A nice list of corporate crime

http://www.alternet.org/economy/17-worst-corporate-crimes-2015

 

 

And yet through all this, the Government is the baddie?

[Doktor Avalanche]

Considering that corporations can't even follow sensible things from the big corrupt Governments, I don't know why you'd think that they are somehow magically better - they are 100% about profit.

 

Illegal Logging - we only have one Earth,, why ruin it?

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/deforestation/deforestation_causes/illegal_logging/

 

And yet through all this, the Government is the baddie?

If the government would allow us to grow hemp, we would stop deforestation in a heartbeat.

[durmij]

On the other foot, the Corporate Welfare State is the only reason much of that accumulated wealth is happening in the first place. I often wonder what would have happened if the Too Big To Fail bailout simply refused to "bail them out".

I wan't referring to the corporate welfare state, but the gradual accumulation of social services over years of reform.

[Hao Huiyu]

If the government would allow us to grow hemp, we would stop deforestation in a heartbeat.

Not only did I struggle to find places where hemp growing is illegal, but I found articles like this that disagree with you. Will growing hemp increase corporations' social responsibility too?

[Big Brother]

If the government would allow us to grow hemp, we would stop deforestation in a heartbeat.

 

In this case, the government was used as a tool to criminalize hemp by competing industries with the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937, so that these competing industries and private businessmen like Randolph Hearst, Andrew Mellon, the DuPont family and others could keep their profits. If anyone or anything is to blame, it would be them and the greed of private industry.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Big Brother

[Doktor Avalanche]

In this case, the government was used as a tool to criminalize hemp by competing industries with the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937, so that these competing industries and private businessmen like Randolph Hearst, Andrew Mellon, the DuPont family and others could keep their profits. If anyone or anything is to blame, it would be them and the greed of private industry.

It still required Government cronies to enact and pay off to enforce.

Both are to blame. This is why it is a Corporate Welfare State and Corporatism.

[Fistandantilus]

A meaningful debate isn't "Big Vrs Small Government", it is "Good Vrs Bad Government". Whether a Government is big or small is not a factor with how successful or terrible it is

[Big Brother]

It still required Government cronies to enact and pay off to enforce.

Both are to blame. This is why it is a Corporate Welfare State and Corporatism.

 

I disagree. The "government cronies" only exist because private enterprise have the opportunity to use their wealth to influence the acts of political representatives. A nation does not fall under the influence of corporatism and corporate welfare because there are people in government who want to give money to corporations (unless they own some themselves). It does so because corporations want more money and more profits for themselves.

 

Private enterprise, wealth and egotism are major corrupting forces, and they're working hard in the US. A lot of people, including American citizens and political scientists, believe that the United States has turned into an oligarchy that is run at the expense of its citizenry in favor of the "superrich". A country doesn't turn into an oligarchy like that because the government wanted it to happen, it does so because lobbyists, at the behest of private enterprise and corporations, convinced them to make the appropriate changes in order to create the best possible political, societal and economical climate for private enterprise. Remove the corrupting influence these people have, and you'll have come a long way towards a more fair society.

[Doktor Avalanche]

I disagree. The "government cronies" only exist because private enterprise have the opportunity to use their wealth to influence the acts of political representatives. A nation does not fall under the influence of corporatism and corporate welfare because there are people in government who want to give money to corporations (unless they own some themselves). It does so because corporations want more money and more profits for themselves.

 

Private enterprise, wealth and egotism are major corrupting forces, and they're working hard in the US. A lot of people, including American citizens and political scientists, believe that the United States has turned into an oligarchy that is run at the expense of its citizenry in favor of the "superrich". A country doesn't turn into an oligarchy like that because the government wanted it to happen, it does so because lobbyists, at the behest of private enterprise and corporations, convinced them to make the appropriate changes in order to create the best possible political, societal and economical climate for private enterprise. Remove the corrupting influence these people have, and you'll have come a long way towards a more fair society.

So how does one nullify the Corporate Welfare State? How do we end Corporatism? Should we end lobbying? Or do we end Private Enterprise and thus Nationalize everything? Or could we just stop giving money to Corporations by electing people who will actually not give the money away to the Corporations? This is a fairly complicated issue with several directions, many which have been taken only ending with corrupt politicians who do cater to lobbyists for corporate special interests.

[Big Brother]

So how does one nullify the Corporate Welfare State? How do we end Corporatism? Should we end lobbying? Or do we end Private Enterprise and thus Nationalize everything? Or could we just stop giving money to Corporations by electing people who will actually not give the money away to the Corporations? This is a fairly complicated issue with several directions, many which have been taken only ending with corrupt politicians who do cater to lobbyists for corporate special interests.

 

You should most certainly criminalize lobbying. Ending private enterprise seems a little far fetched to me, the free market can be useful as long as it serves the people. I'd only nationalize what was absolutely necessary and control nationalized assets through shares.

 

Your problem is that literally every single person elected could potentially decide to give away money to corporations. Unless you abolish elections entirely, you won't have a solution. Everyone has a price, no one is completely infallible. What you're suggesting would be removing the people from politics, which is pretty much impossible considering what politics is. What you should do is remove money from politics, not the people. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds of nations who have free, democratic elections where money has no part to play and where there are laws and regulations in place to combat money's corrupting influence on the political process. You should be able to accomplish the same.

[Doktor Avalanche]

You should most certainly criminalize lobbying. Ending private enterprise seems a little far fetched to me, the free market can be useful as long as it serves the people. I'd only nationalize what was absolutely necessary and control nationalized assets through shares.

 

Your problem is that literally every single person elected could potentially decide to give away money to corporations. Unless you abolish elections entirely, you won't have a solution. Everyone has a price, no one is completely infallible. What you're suggesting would be removing the people from politics, which is pretty much impossible considering what politics is. What you should do is remove money from politics, not the people. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds of nations who have free, democratic elections where money has no part to play and where there are laws and regulations in place to combat money's corrupting influence on the political process. You should be able to accomplish the same.

The issue in ending lobbying is non-profit entities such as the Audubon Society and other Environmental associations usually do not have any sway or direction for recognition in Congress or Senate. Lobbyist groups are able to have such organizations receive an ear in the fray.

 

Overall the system is geared towards corruption. However every government has its corruption. Its the nature of the beast.

[Solomon]

...

Overall the system is geared towards corruption. However every government has its corruption. Its the nature of the beast.

It's exactly because there is a tendency for political systems to become corrupt that we should work to keep that corruption to a minimum. Corporate lobbying is a blatant form of corruption.

[Big Brother]

The issue in ending lobbying is non-profit entities such as the Audubon Society and other Environmental associations usually do not have any sway or direction for recognition in Congress or Senate. Lobbyist groups are able to have such organizations receive an ear in the fray.

 

Overall the system is geared towards corruption. However every government has its corruption. Its the nature of the beast.

 

Well, a lot (perhaps all) governments are and can be corrupt to some degree, but I wouldn't say they're inherently so. You have your system of checks and balances to limit the corrupting potential of power, it should be possible to have a similar system to limit the corrupting potential of money. I'd say you're right in your assessment that making such a change within the framework of the current system which so heavily favors lobbyists and the wealthy would be difficult, maybe even close to impossible, so maybe it could be an idea to look for solutions outside of the establishment.

[Doktor Avalanche]

It's exactly because there is a tendency for political systems to become corrupt that we should work to keep that corruption to a minimum. Corporate lobbying is a blatant form of corruption.

For the first time ever in the history of Orbis, I actually agree with you.

[Captain_Vietnam]

nationalize all buisnesses is way forward

[WISD0MTREE]

Could you also provide me an article on the selling air in bottles that you speak of?  

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/08/world/fresh-air-britain-china-bottles/

https://www.technocracy.news/index.php/2015/12/20/china-buying-canned-fresh-air-from-colorado/

Edited February 9, 2016 by WISD0MTREE