Your Thoughts On The Recent Terrorist Attack In Paris

[Caecus]

There are passages saying that Muslims should quash/destroy infidels, which are used to justify these attacks. Unlike Christianity, which is primarily based around the idea of fellowship in the new testament, the fact that the Qu'ran actually says this show that something is a bit wrong with Islam. It is, after all, a religion with a violent history - the first Muslims raided caravans into Mecca and would later take the city by force anfd smah the symbols of other religions. They need to sort it out - go through an enlightenment like Christianity did in Europe. Once they have sorted out the sexism, the inherent violence and the horrific laws in Saudi Arabia, the religion will be better suited for a peaceful era.

 

Under normal circumstances, I would agree that there is something inherently violent about Islam just by looking at their scriptures. But the jihads at the end of the 12th century and subsequent ruling of their dynasties were more political reasons rather than religiously motivated conquest. The Ten Commandments say "thou shall not kill," and even taking the word in the original Hebrew (having the connotation of "murder" vs. "kill"), you would imagine that Christians only commit acts of violence in self-defense. 

 

Religion is a conduit for political and social justification of otherwise morally questionable policies. "God didn't create !@#$s the same as the rest of us," or "The Quran tells us that women should not be equal to men" or even "They believe in a false god, so we are morally obligated to send them to meet Him." To add another layer of complexity, there is even more underlying causes for their political and social extremism. Saudi Arabia's religious extremism extends from an era of Islamic puritanism, which underlying cause dates back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the socio-economic stress of Westernization and the humiliating defeats inflicted by England, Russia, and France. 

[Geronimo]

Reform the religion for Muslims if they will not do it themselves and you'll essentially wipe the thoughts that this and that which we find wrong are right in their heads in time. The British model (Anglican) would work nicely. Ban Islam as it exists today and get religious leaders to change their beliefs/get those willing, arresting all those leaders who refuse to change. Appoint one of them as the leader, as a Caliph if needed for the country's Muslims. 

Make sure Mosques follow the new Islam, ban those that do not, and aggressively crack down on any that pop up.

 

How could we reform the religion of Islam? By invading the whole Middle East and imposing our values to them?

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

How could we reform the religion of Islam? By invading the whole Middle East and imposing our values to them?

 

Rozalia is a Joke.

 

I would strongly advice against responding to him.

[Rozalia]

How could we reform the religion of Islam? By invading the whole Middle East and imposing our values to them?

 

Considering I mentioned "country" and the "British model" it was quite obvious I meant here in countries in Europe and not across the middle east (apologies if otherwise). Reforming Islam itself world wide is impossible with how it currently is, but reforming it in a single country in Europe? Definitely possible. Anglican church wouldn't exist otherwise. 

As for actually reforming it, just do as I said in the post you quoted. Some crazies who'd go out of control would have to be put down no doubt (maybe our Ibrahim here), but we'd get a nice new sect of Islam. 

 

Rozalia is a Joke.

 

I would strongly advice against responding to him.

 

Seems Ibrahim finally gathered up enough courage to pop his head in the door to take a potshot at me. Why don't you tell us what you really think about those who killed all those people. Come on, tell us how heroic the ISIS filth is, oh wait you're too craven to directly state your beliefs.

[Franz Von Dietrich]

Rozalia is a Joke.

 

I would strongly advice against responding to him.

I can say the same to you, as you never answer our questions correctly.

[Lannan13]

God rest their poor souls. 

 

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

I can say the same to you, as you never answer our questions correctly.

 

I don't have to answer you or anyone else's questions. 

 

Get this sense of entitlement out of your mind. 

[Robert Ap Ioan]

 

This is a historical cause. Religious extremism doesn't just pop up in the happiest places on Earth. Extremism appears when there are systemic, inherent socio-economic problems that give rise to a desperate and extreme mentality. Since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the subsequent balance of power era during the Cold War, Arab nationalism is increasingly hindered. The division of authority and an increasing difference between the wealthy oil barons and their associates and the rest of the population continued to stress the socio-religious tensions within the Middle East. This isn't just Iraq, this isn't just Iran either. This is what happens when a foreign power arbitrarily carves up a large landmass the size and population of the United States without addressing inherent leadership and social problems.

 

 

Fact of the matter is, extremism isn't unique to Islam. It isn't unique to any religion. It's not unique to any race or culture either. It isn't even unique to religion. The Reconstruction South had multiple terror attacks, multiple killings and fire bombings. I'll even bet that the Civil Right era has more deaths per year than terror attacks in the West. The big misconception today is that extremism happens because you are associated with a certain ideology. Yes, that does contribute, but there are underlying reasons. People turn to extremism and their ideologues because they feel powerless. When the bank forecloses your house, your wife leaves you, your children hate you, and you got fired from your job, blowing up the very bank that foreclosed your house is your way of getting back at the world. 

 

 

At this point, blaming the Allies at the Paris Peace conference, or blaming the US and Russia for Soviet era covert social dissension, or even blaming the US in 2003 for Iraq is, at this point, counter productive. Yes, I blame them. And I will forever have a very delicate and precise string of swear words I would like to scream at Bush for doing something so bloody stupid. But that's in the past, and you can study as much history and still not change a damn thing now. What we should do now is focus on how to solve extremism.

 

 

We need to recognize that there are people out there, within the very areas who are fighting against fundamentalism. They tend to be people who try to fight disorder and terror by becoming part of the system of order and justice. Every few months, we hear about an Afghan prosecutor who was killed in a terror attack. We are never given their names, nor their stories, and nor do we ever seem to care. Media has focused on the sensationalism, where they paint a picture where all Muslims are extremists, and all extremists are Muslims. This isn't right, and by having this mentality, we become ever more detached from the problems of the Middle East. By being desensitized, we eventually start to think that the only way to solve problems is to bomb everyone and everything. 

 

On the ship of fools forum some of the French and more informed posters have pointed something out that really backs up this post. In France if you are of Algerian background you are a second class citizen, you are treated as inferior to the general population. In my experience of studying history it is treating others as inferior that alienates them and drives them into making decisions that are not beneficial to themselves, which can become more and more extreme. The key to defeating terrorism is to integrate people into society, to promote the good sides of their culture not the bad and to be welcoming to people from a different background. If we condem and punish the moderate Muslim, he will likely have nothing to lose from going Radical.

 

For an example we can look at the IRA in Ireland. Catholics in the North were treated as second class citizens in their own country, as natives were treated in the colonies. Their just complaints were ignored and they took matters into their own hands. Alas in a sense their terrorism is, in a perverted way, justified. Violence and contempt begat violence and contempt. I believe that if you move to our country we have a duty to aid people in understanding our culture and I fear that this is often not done. We need to encourage people away from radicalism as opposed from banning them from it. Let's be positive not negative.

[Geronimo]

On the ship of fools forum some of the French and more informed posters have pointed something out that really backs up this post. In France if you are of Algerian background you are a second class citizen, you are treated as inferior to the general population. In my experience of studying history it is treating others as inferior that alienates them and drives them into making decisions that are not beneficial to themselves, which can become more and more extreme. The key to defeating terrorism is to integrate people into society, to promote the good sides of their culture not the bad and to be welcoming to people from a different background. If we condem and punish the moderate Muslim, he will likely have nothing to lose from going Radical.

 

For an example we can look at the IRA in Ireland. Catholics in the North were treated as second class citizens in their own country, as natives were treated in the colonies. Their just complaints were ignored and they took matters into their own hands. Alas in a sense their terrorism is, in a perverted way, justified. Violence and contempt begat violence and contempt. I believe that if you move to our country we have a duty to aid people in understanding our culture and I fear that this is often not done. We need to encourage people away from radicalism as opposed from banning them from it. Let's be positive not negative.

 

You talk more sense than our politicians. I definitely will vote you in the coming election.

[Robert Ap Ioan]

hehe, thanks if only I was standing.....although the local Plaid Cymru candidate is well worth voting for. I can't wait for May!

[Franz Von Dietrich]

I don't have to answer you or anyone else's questions. 

 

Get this sense of entitlement out of your mind. 

You don't have to. 

 

But it does give us all the impression that you can't argue, justify, nor counter anything we say. It just shows how uneducated you are in all fields relating to Philosophy.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

You talk more sense than our politicians. I definitely will vote you in the coming election.

 

He has his moments but they need to be more frequent. And only God has the right to legislate.

 

You don't have to. 

 

But it does give us all the impression that you can't argue, justify, nor counter anything we say. It just shows how uneducated you are in all fields relating to Philosophy.

 

If I don't have to, then stop pestering me about it.

 

I really could not care less about your impressions of me.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Robert Ap Ioan]

And that is why British laws are based off the bible.....

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

And that is why British laws are based off the bible.....

 

No they are based off the whims and desires of corrupt politicians.

 

If Britain really implemented the laws in the bible, it would be very similar to the Sharia law that you abhor. 

[Robert Ap Ioan]

Nope, it is based off the bible and a 1000 years of precedent.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Nope, it is based off the bible and a 1000 years of precedent.

 

So where is it written in the bible that Gay Marriage should be allowed? 

[Robert Ap Ioan]

Ah that is precedent. 1000 years and all that.....

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Ah that is precedent. 1000 years and all that.....

 

I'm pretty sure there is no precedent for Gay Marriage in the UK.

 

Gays used to be arrested just a few decades back.

 

Also why is the bible not only being ignored but rebelled against in this and many other cases?

Edited November 15, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Robert Ap Ioan]

We live in a secular society, the bible can be interpreted in many different ways. I take the view of Jesus, give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is his. I don't desire a fundamental Christian country because we have already had it. Oliver Cromwell is unpopular for a reason.........people who demand a purely religious law usually throw Baby out with the bath water.

[General Peterson]

Honestly it just further convinced me that Islam should be wipe out from the rest of the Earth, for all the goods it might have, until nobody can ever remember the word ever again.

This is exactly the wrong response. If you get rid of all the normal people (99.9% of Muslims) then only the extremists will be left. Remember, there are as many Muslims in the world than Christians. I'm going to assume you are Christian and use this example:

What if, when the KKK and similar groups were at the height of their power, every time they committed an act of terrorism people started saying they wanted to wipe you and every other Christian off the face of the Earth? Think about that the next time you want to talk about committing a massive genocide against an almost entirely peaceful group of people.

Separation of church and state for the win. Go America.

[Rozalia]

I don't have to answer you or anyone else's questions. 

 

Get this sense of entitlement out of your mind. 

 

Funny how it's always the direct questions where you either condemn or support ISIS though isn't it? Even if they are as simple as yes or no. The softballs everyone else throws at you you seem to have no problem answering, at great length at times too. 

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

We live in a secular society, the bible can be interpreted in many different ways. I take the view of Jesus, give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is his. I don't desire a fundamental Christian country because we have already had it. Oliver Cromwell is unpopular for a reason.........people who demand a purely religious law usually throw Baby out with the bath water.

 

You took the words of Jesus (according to the bible) grossly out of context.

 

He was speaking about paying the imperial tax to Caesar and nothing else: The right of legislation is God's alone.

[General Peterson]

Hell, I'll ask it. Ibrahim, do you condone what ISIS is doing?

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Hell, I'll ask it. Ibrahim, do you condone what ISIS is doing?

 

Since your name is not Rozalia, I will answer this once, and only once: No.

[Robert Ap Ioan]

Nope Ibrahim, I wasn't taking the passage out of context. I am not going to play into your hands. This thread is about Paris and the issues surrounding that, not how Christian the British government is or is not.