Religion

[Doktor Avalanche]

I don't see why memorizing a text is worthwhile. I could probably memorize Metamorphosis or Memorial do Convento or Auto da Fé if my life depended on it but it would do nothing to help me understand them. In fact, the obsession with the words would obscure the meaning.

Oddly I am able to recite, almost entirely, Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley. It makes for cruel torture when discussing American Politics with election events where I get to meet upcoming candidates I think are full of shyte.

[Peace and War]

And again.

 

Could someone explain to me why would you memorize an entire text written by man for the sake of prayer or belief?

 

It was written and edited by man.

 

How can it be the truth if man wrote it?

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

And again.

 

Could someone explain to me why would you memorize an entire text written by man for the sake of prayer or belief?

 

It was written and edited by man.

 

How can it be the truth if man wrote it?

 

Well, I will just give you the Muslim response to this:

 

1) The oral revelation of the Quran was given to prophet Muhammad (saw) by the angel Gabriel and are the words of God Verbatim.

 

2) His companions memorised the Quran, recited many chapters of it by heart daily, recited the entire Quran by heart during the month of Ramadan, and also put down the oral revelation of the Quran in written form.

 

3) It could not be/was never edited. It remains exactly the same since the time it was first revealed.

 

If someone wrote a book and only wrote down what I said word for word:

 

That book can only be attributed to me, not the one who wrote it.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Peace and War]

Yeah that's a good response.

 

But even still, sounds like some Ancient Aliens stuff.

 

An angel came down from the heavens and recited an entire book to you, or text or whatever you would call it.

 

Muhammad must have been quite the fellow to remember that whole thing in one go!

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Yeah that's a good response.

 

But even still, sounds like some Ancient Aliens stuff.

 

An angel came down from the heavens and recited an entire book to you, or text or whatever you would call it.

 

Muhammad must have been quite the fellow to remember that whole thing in one go!

 

The Quran was revealed in stages over a period of 23 years.

[SythKingdom]

Yeah that's a good response.

 

But even still, sounds like some Ancient Aliens stuff.

 

An angel came down from the heavens and recited an entire book to you, or text or whatever you would call it.

 

Muhammad must have been quite the fellow to remember that whole thing in one go!

 

I guess, I can say the same thing about other religions?

[Moon Man]

*Trigger Warning, possible difference of opinion, heathen posting*

 

Muhammed was a pedophile, and that religion has some of the most asinine prohibitions I have seen. No alcohol, no drinking water during that Ramadan thing, no eating pork, meat has to be prepared by causing undue suffering to animals. Add into it that you have to pray like 5 times a day, and the legit sexism inherent in the Koran, and you have one of the most intrusive religions. Catholicism has its pedo problems, but that is mans fault, not the prophets. Also doesn't help that Islam is probably the most warlike religion out there, and calls itself the religion of peace. Jesus never recommended stoning anybody, only whipped some jews in a synagogue for trying to make money on religion.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Moon Man

[SythKingdom]

Yeah that's a good response.

 

But even still, sounds like some Ancient Aliens stuff.

 

An angel came down from the heavens and recited an entire book to you, or text or whatever you would call it.

 

Muhammad must have been quite the fellow to remember that whole thing in one go!

 

“And those who disbelieve say: Why is not the Quran revealed to him all at once? Thus (it is sent down in parts), that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages.†[25:32]. 

 

“And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages,†means We revealed it slowly and sent it gradually. All of this indicates that Allah was taking care of His Book, the Quran, and His Messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as He sent down His Book in accordance with the situations faced by the Messenger and as needed to address unfolding issues. End quote from Tafsir as-S’adi 

[Kyubnyan]

I believe in panties.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

I've reported Moon Man's post.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Doktor Avalanche]

I've reported Moon Man's post.

Technically Moon Man violated nothing except voicing his own opinion regarding his take on a faith. This is a Debate section of the forums. Reporting his post because you disagree does nothing except show thin skin. Moon Man's opinions,however asinine you may take them, are arguments against accepting Islam as a faith in many people's views. It is just the same as every attack made upon Jesus' divinity, birth, death, resurrection, ascension, Catholic pedophile jokes, Eucharistic transubstantiation, etc. the list can go on.

[Kyubnyan]

Muhammed was a pedophile, and that religion has some of the most asinine prohibitions I have seen. No alcohol, no drinking water during that Ramadan thing, no eating pork, meat has to be prepared by causing undue suffering to animals. the meat and the pedophilia thing make Islam seem like some sort of demon cult , and the prohibitions just make it annoying. Add into it that you have to pray like 5 times a day, and the legit sexism inherent in the Koran, and you have one of the most intrusive religions. Catholicism has its pedo problems, but that is mans fault, not the prophets. Also doesn't help that Islam is probably the most warlike religion out there, and calls itself the religion of peace. Jesus never recommended stoning anybody, only whipped some jews in a synagogue for trying to make money on religion.

Most religions (especially Christianity) have sexism because they were made over a thousand years ago. Also, Islam is not a warlike religion, you're thinking of Jihadism, which is completely different. The lack of valid reasoning in this thread is astonishing. 

[Rozalia]

Most religions (especially Christianity) have sexism because they were made over a thousand years ago. Also, Islam is not a warlike religion, you're thinking of Jihadism, which is completely different. The lack of valid reasoning in this thread is astonishing. 

 

Come now. I get whitewashing is very popular these days but most religions involved some sort of violence to bring it to prominence, Islam is one such religion. In their infancy the religion's first acts was to invade Mecca and destroy the local religions there. They invaded Persia and the often remarked "tolerant" Muslims carried out a campaign to wipe out Zoroastrianism.

Why do people not care much about Christianity and what not in comparison? Reform. There has many reforms and it will reform further to bring it more in line with modern thinking. Islam on the other hand refuses to do so and heck, may well be more backwards then Islam 1000-500 years ago relatively speaking.

 

Anyway on more serious matters. None of the religions matter because they were all invented by the Demiurge to get people to worship him. Only by pursuing Agnosticism and realizing that the real god is unknowable can you free yourself from the Demiurge's machinations. Atheists are close to being there, but by thinking they can confirm the state of the unknowable god they are too playing into the Demiurge's hands, as such only Agnosticism can save your soul. So you see this poll is just another trick of the Demiurge for every single answer is incorrect with the only way to win being to not vote at all.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Rozalia

[Doktor Avalanche]

None of the religions matter because they were all invented by ERIS to get people to worship HER. Only by pursuing DISCORDIANISM and realizing that the real GODDESS is unknowable can you free yourself from GREYFACE'S machinations. Atheists are close to being there, but by thinking they can confirm the state of the GODDESS they are too playing into ERIS' hands, as such only DISCORDIANISM can save your soul. So you see this poll is just another trick of ERIS for every single answer is incorrect with the only way to win being to not vote at all.

Fix'd.

FNORD!

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Such profound ignorance I don't even know where to begin.

 

Come now. I get whitewashing is very popular these days but most religions involved some sort of violence to bring it to prominence, Islam is one such religion. In their infancy the religion's first acts was to invade Mecca and destroy the local religions there.

 

The Muslims were actually forced to flee Mecca to Medina to escape very harsh persecution at the hands of pagans who tortured many of them to death in an attempt to make them come back to their pagan religion. Medina had sent envoys to Mecca before the Muslims fled asking Muhammad (saw) to mediate a dispute between two powerful tribes. What the envoys saw and heard had impressed them and they invited Muhammad to settle in Medina. After the Hijrah (migration to Medina), Muhammad's (saw) exceptional qualities so impressed the Medinans that the rival tribes and their allies temporarily closed ranks, on March 15 624, around Muhammad (saw) and his companions when the people of Mecca (who were pagan) launched a vicious attack against Medina that is known as the battle of Badr, and which resulted in a Heroic victory for the Muslims who were heavily outnumbered. Numerous other attacks were also launched against the Muslims by the pagans of Mecca the most significant of them being the battles of Uhud and al-Khandaq.

 

"Just before the conquest of Mecca, several events took place.  In 628 C.E., the Prophet Muhammad set out with about 1400 Muslims from Medina to perform umrah, the minor pilgrimage. When they reached the outskirts of Mecca, the Prophet sent an emissary to the Meccans informing them that the Muslims were not coming to fight but coming to perform a ritual. The Muslims were not permitted to perform the pilgrimage that year, but an agreement was reached between the Muslims and Quraysh.

 

This agreement was called the Treaty of Hudaybiyah. According to the treaty, the Muslims would postpone their pilgrimage to the following year. When the Muslims returned for the pilgrimage, the Meccans would clear the city so that the Muslims could perform the ritual peacefully. Also, all the Arab tribes would choose to ally themselves with the Meccans or the Muslims and would defend the respective side should there be an attack. Finally, the treaty outlined a plan for 10 years of peace between the two sides, preventing any bloodshed.

 

Both sides adhered to the treaty initially. However, two years later there was a violation of the agreement. One of the tribes allied with the Meccans attacked and killed some members of a tribe allied with the Muslims. This incident dissolved the treaty.

By this time, the Muslims had become a formidable force and so in 630 C.E. the Prophet Muhammad decided to  take an army of 10,000 towards Mecca. Once the Muslims had reached Mecca, the leaders of Quraysh surrendered. As a result the Prophet Muhammad announced:

 

Those who shelter in the Ka’ba are safe; those who shelter in the house of Abu Sufyan are safe, and those who remain confined to their houses are also safe.

 

Abu Sufayan was a leader of Quraysh and one of the ardent enemies of the Prophet Muhammad. The Meccans were afraid about the impending conquest of their city because the Arabs had lived by the law of retaliation and there was a fear that Muslims would take revenge for the persecution of the Muslims and the losses in subsequent battles. When the Prophet Muhammad and the Muslims entered the area of the Kaba, he announced clemency for everyone in Mecca who no longer wished to fight the Muslims:

 

This day no reproach shall be on you. God will forgive you; He is the Most Merciful of the Merciful. You can go away!

 

Many of the Meccans, who were expecting some sort of punishment, were surprised by the Prophet’s statement and some decided to become Muslim. Thus, the conquest of Mecca was bloodless and ended years of warfare and violence between Quraysh and the Muslims."

[Kyubnyan]

He's correct BTW.

[Peace and War]

“And those who disbelieve say: Why is not the Quran revealed to him all at once? Thus (it is sent down in parts), that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages.†[25:32]. 

 

“And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages,†means We revealed it slowly and sent it gradually. All of this indicates that Allah was taking care of His Book, the Quran, and His Messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), as He sent down His Book in accordance with the situations faced by the Messenger and as needed to address unfolding issues. End quote from Tafsir as-S’adi 

 

But the issue I find with such a story is such that

 

An "angel" sent from Allah to tell Muhammad the Quran over the course of 23 years.

Who was this angel? Where are they now? Where there others?

 

Who witnessed it? Who's to say Muhammad didn't make it up over the course of his life to suit his needs? He was a leader after all.

 

 

I feel as though religion as a whole was invented by a few smart men to control others.

 

Fight for me or you will burn in hell, god wills it.

 

 

Take for example the fact that if such god took such an active role in guiding humanity then why didn't any of these texts end all bad deeds in the world?

 

Why was religion used as a basis for countless wars?

 

 

Religion served its purpose in a time when chaos ruled everyday life, whether it was invented by man or really came from God.

 

But in today's world, we know better than to murder, we know better then to steal.

 

But we also know that it's okay if someone is gay, if a woman commits adultary she need not be stoned to death, another bias since men where not treated the same way.

 

If God created both man and woman why would he/she want women to be treated as badly as they where.

 

 

Religion can fool the simple minded, when used by smart men with power. If God really took such an active role in making these texts, God wouldn't allow such men to stain his book with the blood of "infidels"

 

And when you also consider the fact of the many religions that exist, ones from the past and present, how can you know for sure that your beliefs are correct? When there are many other people who believe in their different religion just as much as you do?

 

When you think about it objectively, and realize it would be impossible to determine which religion is correct, especially when they all want something from you, that the idea that such a god could exist within such a following, such a herd following idea perpetrated by such a few amount of men, you begin to realize.....

 

None of these people can be correct, such as that no one can tell you what your thinking, but only yourself.

 

Any God would be a silent partner, he would silently guide us through our purposes in life, for if he truly wanted us to know of his existence, he wouldn't do it through a book or a text.

 

He would just command us himself.....

 

But he doesn't, none today have seen him before, so he silently guides our existence, some of us he makes good, some of us he makes bad, for an unknown goal to us.

 

Because those that seek to understand God must understand life itself, because that is God.

 

God is silent, God pays it forward, Like when a bear takes berries from a bush, the bear doesn't ask permission and the bush doesn't try to stop the bear, for when the bear defecates later on, he inadvertently spreads the seeds from the Berry bush, and life gos on.

 

That is God, a series of events in a spiderweb like chain that all lead back to him.

 

And you never even know it.

[Rozalia]

Such profound ignorance I don't even know where to begin.

 

 

The Muslims were actually forced to flee Mecca to Medina to escape very harsh persecution at the hands of pagans who tortured many of them to death in an attempt to make them come back to their pagan religion. Medina had sent envoys to Mecca before the Muslims fled asking Muhammad (saw) to mediate a dispute between two powerful tribes. What the envoys saw and heard had impressed them and they invited Muhammad to settle in Medina. After the Hijrah (migration to Medina), Muhammad's (saw) exceptional qualities so impressed the Medinans that the rival tribes and their allies temporarily closed ranks, on March 15 624, around Muhammad (saw) and his companions when the people of Mecca (who were pagan) launched a vicious attack against Medina that is known as the battle of Badr, and which resulted in a Heroic victory for the Muslims who were heavily outnumbered. Numerous other attacks were also launched against the Muslims by the pagans of Mecca the most significant of them being the battles of Uhud and al-Khandaq.

 

"Just before the conquest of Mecca, several events took place.  In 628 C.E., the Prophet Muhammad set out with about 1400 Muslims from Medina to perform umrah, the minor pilgrimage. When they reached the outskirts of Mecca, the Prophet sent an emissary to the Meccans informing them that the Muslims were not coming to fight but coming to perform a ritual. The Muslims were not permitted to perform the pilgrimage that year, but an agreement was reached between the Muslims and Quraysh.

 

This agreement was called the Treaty of Hudaybiyah. According to the treaty, the Muslims would postpone their pilgrimage to the following year. When the Muslims returned for the pilgrimage, the Meccans would clear the city so that the Muslims could perform the ritual peacefully. Also, all the Arab tribes would choose to ally themselves with the Meccans or the Muslims and would defend the respective side should there be an attack. Finally, the treaty outlined a plan for 10 years of peace between the two sides, preventing any bloodshed.

 

Both sides adhered to the treaty initially. However, two years later there was a violation of the agreement. One of the tribes allied with the Meccans attacked and killed some members of a tribe allied with the Muslims. This incident dissolved the treaty.

By this time, the Muslims had become a formidable force and so in 630 C.E. the Prophet Muhammad decided to  take an army of 10,000 towards Mecca. Once the Muslims had reached Mecca, the leaders of Quraysh surrendered. As a result the Prophet Muhammad announced:

 

Those who shelter in the Ka’ba are safe; those who shelter in the house of Abu Sufyan are safe, and those who remain confined to their houses are also safe.

 

Abu Sufayan was a leader of Quraysh and one of the ardent enemies of the Prophet Muhammad. The Meccans were afraid about the impending conquest of their city because the Arabs had lived by the law of retaliation and there was a fear that Muslims would take revenge for the persecution of the Muslims and the losses in subsequent battles. When the Prophet Muhammad and the Muslims entered the area of the Kaba, he announced clemency for everyone in Mecca who no longer wished to fight the Muslims:

 

This day no reproach shall be on you. God will forgive you; He is the Most Merciful of the Merciful. You can go away!

 

Many of the Meccans, who were expecting some sort of punishment, were surprised by the Prophet’s statement and some decided to become Muslim. Thus, the conquest of Mecca was bloodless and ended years of warfare and violence between Quraysh and the Muslims."

 

Did they not invade Mecca and destroy the local religions there? Yes or no?

 

Additionally you said nothing about the Zoroastrians. Actually lets do a little exercise as the people supporting you here like Kyubey/Harms and such I expect do so love these sort of things. Why don't you apologise for the evils your people/religion inflicted on them (Zoroastrians).

Edited September 16, 2015 by Rozalia

[Moon Man]

I'll say this again, correct me if I'm wrong. The bible (new testament) does not recommend stoning/enslaving heathens. And if you want to report me, fine. This is the religion thread, and I was having a discussion on religions

[Kyubnyan]

Did they not invade Mecca and destroy the local religions there? Yes or no?

Did the christians not start the crusades to destroy the religions of many other regions.

[Moon Man]

Did the christians not start the crusades to destroy the religions of many other regions.

 

I'm fairly certain that the crusades were started by Muslim aggression. I'm not saying that christianity is perfect, but most of Christianity's issue is with the Church as an establishment/clergymen and not what was written down in the bible. Jesus was a pacifist, never married/procreated, and was a simple kind of man. I am just saying that in the Koran, Muhammed had like a 7 year old wife, killed people, and did other such things. Honestly Muhammed is probably a more humanistic prophet to look up to, as Jesus is more or less a Mary Sue, but the New Testament as it is written is fairly peaceful. Old testament though, thats another story . . .

[Rozalia]

Did the christians not start the crusades to destroy the religions of many other regions.

 

Won't work on me chestnut as I already included Christianity in such matters. They took out the religions of the north for one yes.

 

Come now. I get whitewashing is very popular these days but most religions involved some sort of violence to bring it to prominence

 

Beyond that the crusades were a reaction to the encroaching Muslim powers that obliterated religions and cultures as it spread. In fact the campaigns and the increased fervor they stimulated I'd say meant we are able to live in these much more enlightened times than had they simply rolled over for the Muslim forces.

The only crusaders I can recall with the aim of "destroying a religion" was one in the north, and the one in France against the Cathars (who are a Christian sect).

Edited September 16, 2015 by Rozalia

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Did they not invade Mecca and destroy the local religions there? Yes or no?

 

No. If you read my previous response you would know that the first people to embrace Islam where in fact from Mecca but were chased out of that city due to the very harsh persecution inflicted upon them for their new found beliefs. The so called "invasion" you are talking did not involve any blood shed, it was merely Muslims returning back to their own city and homes that they were wrongly chased away from, after many years of fighting defensive wars for their own existence after they were pursued by the pagans of Mecca who tried everything at their disposal to utterly destroy the Muslims and thereby stamp out their new religion of Al-Islam. 

 

Additionally you said nothing about the Zoroastrians. 

 

I'll respond to this tomorrow (late).

Edited September 16, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Rozalia]

No. If you read my previous response you would know that the first people to embrace Islam where in fact from Mecca but were chased out of that city due to the very harsh persecution inflicted upon them for their new found beliefs. The so called "invasion" you are talking did not involve any blood shed, it was merely Muslims returning back to their own city and homes that they were wrongly chased away from, after many years of fighting defensive wars for their own existence after they were pursued by the pagans of Mecca who tried everything at their disposal to utterly destroy the Muslims and thereby stamp out their new religion of Al-Islam. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Mecca

 

I see 12 deaths listed, and the only reason their wasn't more was because the people there didn't resist (this is of course ignoring all the kills the Muslims got in before the event of course). Beyond that it was a determined occupation using force, while you're here pretending like Muhammad just decided one day to take a trip to Mecca all peaceful like and everyone there seemingly surrendered to him just because. The things you list about the Muslims helplessly being on the end of violence and not doing any actions in return is sugar coated, but that is expected. No mention of Muslim raids or anything as that doesn't go with your narrative obviously. Even the battle of Badr which you list as a "vicious attack against Medina", seemingly because Mecca was so evil... was actually an army sent to fight off Muhammad and his raiders, so no Muhammad was the aggressor in that not the Meccans. 

 

The going to Medina was to easier gather the forces necessary to conquer Mecca more then anything from what I know, and yes you'll disagree due to religious doctrine and such. 

 

Were the Pagons wrong to try to "stamp out" your religion? Yes or no? 

Edited September 16, 2015 by Rozalia

[naTia]

Did the christians not start the crusades to destroy the religions of many other regions.

This seems really apples-oranges-eque. I don't think you can compare the foundry of a religion to the actions of followers a thousand years later. As well, their actions were mainly about European control over the Holy Land rather than destroying religions. Protestants would even use the crusades as an example of Catholic evils, similarly to Jihadists vs. Muslims to a lesser extent.