ataraxis Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I think this calls for someone to create a bot that scours spy casualties every minute or so. Quote #6 in P&W Beta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Bubblegum Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 @PB it does NOT prove that with certainty. All it would prove, hypothetically, would be that Belisarius sent *a* spy mission today. Not that he did it against you. You're asking us to prove a negative. How about we just ask you to constantly prove that you're not spying on us by doing this test? Since you're bringing it up, it is interesting that Belisarius didn't immediately state that had or hadn't performed a spy operation today (hedging his bets probably). He's now claiming he hadn't, obviously. Once he would make the claim that he hadn't made a spy operation, then the test would have worked. He couldn't claim he hadn't made a spy operation... because he had. So his other possible way of getting out of it, as you point out, is to say he spied on someone else. At that point we could ask the person he claims to have spied on if they received an operation, and at what time, the type of operation, etc. Any operation that would have claimed to have occurred after I made this thread would immediately be suspect, so he'd have to provide an operation that occurred before the thread was made. If he really had done an operation against someone else, this could be corroborated. But suppose he hadn't. what then? He'd have to find someone else whom he could confide in to provide an operation that was done today prior to the making of this thread. He couldn't just randomly ask people in GPA to do this, that'd be far too risky. There are only so many people whom a person can trust to hold such a secret, so he'd need such a person who was both online and already performed an operation. Not the easiest of tasks. He probably had someone he could trust online, but they hadn't done a spy operation yet. Since they hadn't already done a spy operation, Belisarius went with plan B and said "Oops! I did gather intel on Kurd instead," when it was really his confidant that did the operation. How about we just ask you to constantly prove that you're not spying on us by doing this test? I'd go for that. Get a willing 3rd party, pay 3 times the cost of the operation and any damages/lost spies and you have a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashland Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Since you're bringing it up, it is interesting that Belisarius didn't immediately state that had or hadn't performed a spy operation today (hedging his bets probably). He's now claiming he hadn't, obviously. Once he would make the claim that he hadn't made a spy operation, then the test would have worked. He couldn't claim he hadn't made a spy operation... because he had. So his other possible way of getting out of it, as you point out, is to say he spied on someone else. At that point we could ask the person he claims to have spied on if they received an operation, and at what time, the type of operation, etc. Any operation that would have claimed to have occurred after I made this thread would immediately be suspect, so he'd have to provide an operation that occurred before the thread was made. If he really had done an operation against someone else, this could be corroborated. But suppose he hadn't. what then? He'd have to find someone else whom he could confide in to provide an operation that was done today prior to the making of this thread. He couldn't just randomly ask people in GPA to do this, that'd be far too risky. There are only so many people whom a person can trust to hold such a secret, so he'd need such a person who was both online and already performed an operation. Not the easiest of tasks. He probably had someone he could trust online, but they hadn't done a spy operation yet. Since they hadn't already done a spy operation, Belisarius went with plan B and said "Oops! I did gather intel on Kurd instead," when it was really his confidant that did the operation. I'd go for that. Get a willing 3rd party, pay 3 times the cost of the operation and any damages/lost spies and you have a deal. No. He could have spied on someone else and for OPSEC purposes can't reveal that he spied on someone, let alone who he spied upon. It could be someone who raided GPA at some point in the past, perhaps. Edited January 12, 2015 by Ashland Quote ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [10:47] you used to be the voice of irc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Juan Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Your evidence is circumstantial and unverified at best. If you can't prove it, it didn't happen. Simple as that. GG Thanks for the laughs though. Please continue to make more comedy gold, PB. FYI: Keeping a grudge from the speed round and acting on it is poor form. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashland Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Your evidence is circumstantial and unverified at best. If you can't prove it, it didn't happen. Simple as that. GG Thanks for the laughs though. Please continue to make more comedy gold, PB. FYI: Keeping a grudge from the speed round and acting on it is poor form. Succinctly put. Quote ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [10:47] you used to be the voice of irc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Bubblegum Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 No. He could have spied on someone else and for OPSEC purposes can't reveal that he spied on someone, let alone who he spied upon. It could be someone who raided GPA at some point in the past, perhaps. Belisarius already has demonstrated he's willing to share his spy operations. Also, this could have been dealt with by using a third party as well, if it had been the case. Except it's not. Belisarius has made his bed already. If you can't prove it, it didn't happen. Obviously this is an absurd statement, and not just relating to the situation at hand. There is no way to prove this on my end. What exactly would have been proof? Are you in disagreement with me about screenshots? Is a screenshot more proof to you than my test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashland Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Sometimes you just can't prove things. Tough luck, sport. 1 Quote ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [10:47] you used to be the voice of irc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Bubblegum Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Sometimes you just can't prove things. Tough luck, sport. Which just raises the question why the demand for proof when proof is impossible to provide? Why not just say, "Proof is impossible to obtain in this matter. Any accusations of spying by anyone upon anyone are meaningless because they can be dismissed as being unprovable. Any request for test that could help resolve the matter can likewise be ignored." It rules out spying as a form of cassus belli and no one ever need pay reps over spying because they are unprovable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aesir Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Which just raises the question why the demand for proof when proof is impossible to provide? Why not just say, "Proof is impossible to obtain in this matter. Any accusations of spying by anyone upon anyone are meaningless because they can be dismissed as being unprovable. Any request for test that could help resolve the matter can likewise be ignored." It rules out spying as a form of cassus belli and no one ever need pay reps over spying because they are unprovable. Not entirely true. You can catch enemy spies. A cassis belli can be that you smell bad or your nation name offends someone, or your alliance offends someone. A suspected spy attack is a valid cassus belli and if you catch the person who spied you then there is your proof. Something that cannot be varified are your claims therefore people can either accept them as fact, believe that they are just you whining and holding a grudge, or just ignore you. Either way doesn't matter. Except the last one. If everyone ignored you, you might make less of these claims. Edit: again I really need to read what I say before I post it Edited January 12, 2015 by Lunan Quote Art by Faroreswind159 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Bubblegum Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Not entirely true. You can catch enemy spies. Which might be meaningful if exposed spy operations were public, like on another world... Catching spies is the same thing as a screenshot though. There's no proof that the spies caught belonged to the accused. You'd be back to relying on screenshots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naTia Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) You understand that by suggesting Belisarius did a spy op on somebody else yesterday means you are calling him a lair, correct? He can't have made another spy op and used the gather intel as "proof" on the same day. Either you are missing the facts or blatantly disregarding them. I don't usually takes sides, but the argument against PB is misinformed and biased. You can't possibly believe that PB is just conjuring this up? It would be sheer ignorance not to note suspicion on the part of Belisarius. Throwing GPA members at this thread doesn't make PB's claims any less credible. Edited January 12, 2015 by The Captain Nao Quote Resident DJ @ Club Orbis Founder of The Warehouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 You can't possibly believe that PB is just conjuring this up? I, for one, can, given her history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashland Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 You understand that by suggesting Belisarius did a spy op on somebody else yesterday means you are calling him a lair, correct? He can't have made another spy op and used the gather intel as "proof" on the same day. Either you are missing the facts or blatantly disregarding them. I don't usually takes sides, but the argument against PB is misinformed and biased. You can't possibly believe that PB is just conjuring this up? It would be sheer ignorance not to note suspicion on the part of Belisarius. Throwing GPA members at this thread doesn't make PB's claims any less credible. He could be lying for the purpose of OPSEC, which happens all the time. If his spy mission was at all important, obviously he's going to insist that it didn't happen. Quote ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [10:47] you used to be the voice of irc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aesir Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) You understand that by suggesting Belisarius did a spy op on somebody else yesterday means you are calling him a lair, correct? He can't have made another spy op and used the gather intel as "proof" on the same day. Either you are missing the facts or blatantly disregarding them. I don't usually takes sides, but the argument against PB is misinformed and biased. You can't possibly believe that PB is just conjuring this up? It would be sheer ignorance not to note suspicion on the part of Belisarius. Throwing GPA members at this thread doesn't make PB's claims any less credible. Well the argument for PB is misinformed and biased as well. In fact everything on this thread is misinformed and biased. This comment is misinformed and biased. I avoid these forums like the plague (except the spam but that is contamination free) and the only reason I am here is because PB accused a government official of the GPA with espionage. Now the question is why would he do this when he has much better things to be doing? Like supporting his alliance mates? This thread is estentially which biased, misinformed argument do you believe? Also I never made the claim he did a spy ops on anyone... Let's just agree to hate each other, and disagree, and believe our own biased, misinformed position. Deal? Edited January 12, 2015 by Lunan Quote Art by Faroreswind159 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 What motive could Belisarius possibly have to spy PB anyway? GPA is steadfast and unwavering in its neutrality. Even if that weren't true, why would he spy PB of all people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naTia Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Lunan: I certainly don't hate GPA or anybody in it. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am here to try to show you why this seems suspicious and why you shouldn't disregard it. While Belisarius himself is not on my list of shady people, this action causes me to believe he acted in a manner that is unbefitting of the government. Ashland: I can definitely understand why for the sake of opsec he would need to hide the fact of this spying mission, but why all the secrecy? Why leave everybody in the dark when he is being accused of another act of espionage? Every excuse and disregard for formal manner is what causes me to challenge his reasons for hiding such a mission. Gregory House: Care to elaborate? (in response to the first reply) Edited January 12, 2015 by The Captain Nao Quote Resident DJ @ Club Orbis Founder of The Warehouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashland Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Lunan: I certainly don't hate GPA or anybody in it. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am here to try to show you why this seems suspicious and why you shouldn't disregard it. While Belisarius himself is not on my list of shady people, this action causes me to believe he acted in a manner that is unbefitting of the government. Ashland: I can definitely understand why for the sake of opsec he would need to hide the fact of this spying mission, but why all the secrecy? Why leave everybody in the dark when he is being accused of another act of espionage? Every excuse and disregard for formal manner is what causes me to challenge his reasons for hiding such a mission. Gregory House: Care to elaborate? There's a huge double standard here. If it were not GPA, nobody would care. Quote ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [10:47] you used to be the voice of irc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Gregory House: Care to elaborate? (in response to the first reply) GPA had a run-in with PB in the past round(s), and while I was not here to witness it, it isn't unreasonable to suspect she might have an unfavorable opinion of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Bubblegum Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Now the question is why would he do this when he has much better things to be doing? If you were being spied on by someone and had limited options for recourse, publicly exposing the perpetrator would be one thing you could do. He could be lying for the purpose of OPSEC, which happens all the time. If his spy mission was at all important, obviously he's going to insist that it didn't happen. If it was OPSEC, he would only need to say that. He didn't need to lie. Again, that could have been handled differently, but there were ways of corroborating that. Any attempt by Bel to switch gears now is just going to look absurd, so this whole branch of the argument is a red herring. What motive could Belisarius possibly have to spy PB anyway? GPA is steadfast and unwavering in its neutrality. Even if that weren't true, why would he spy PB of all people? People do a lot of things that seems absurd on the face of it, so long as they can rustle someone's jimmies. Belisarius' schtick throughout speed round was killing my spies. He did it because it was funny and he thought he could get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naTia Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 There's a huge double standard here. If it were not GPA, nobody would care. There is a very good reason for that. GPA is an established alliance with well known members and established businesses such as your own. GPA is the number one alliance in the game. GPA is supposed to be a neutral alliance, and as far as I can tell this was not an act of self-defense. Quote Resident DJ @ Club Orbis Founder of The Warehouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory House Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 People do a lot of things that seems absurd on the face of it, so long as they can rustle someone's jimmies. Implying that a member of the GPA, a government member at that, would breach neutrality, a principle we take very seriously, for no other reason than to "rustle someone's jimmies" is itself absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filthy Fifths Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Any nation threatening my princess. There will be trouble. Quote "In an honest service there is thin commons, low wages, and hard labor; in this, plenty and satiety, pleasure and ease, liberty and power; and who would not balance creditor on this side, when all the hazard that is run for it, at worst, is only a sour look or two at choking. No, a merry life and a short one, shall be my motto." - Bartholomew "Black Bart" Roberts Green Enforcement Agency will rise again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aesir Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Well as far as I can tell even if it was him it is technically neutral. Neutrality involves not getting involved in conflicts between two other powers. Take Sweden for example. They are neutral but are not above doing something just for the sole purpose of getting back at Russia for stealing Finland. In fact they helped get Lenin into Russia to start the Communist Revolution. I happen to love Sweden. It is a nice country. The fact I am part Swedish helps Quote Art by Faroreswind159 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aesir Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) I purpose that we all just celebrate another forum post and then do absolutely nothing as that will probably get more done than this And with that I take my leave. Have fun pointing fingers. Edited January 12, 2015 by Lunan Quote Art by Faroreswind159 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoS Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 What motive could Belisarius possibly have to spy PB anyway? GPA is steadfast and unwavering in its neutrality. Even if that weren't true, why would he spy PB of all people? They've spied many people. Apparently for no good reason. So why not PB? Manipulating the fates of the 99% seems to be enough reason. Like it or not, if your captured/lost matches the crime, the burden of proof is on the suspect. That's the way it is with the current system. There was an easy way to prove innocence, but that was intentionally sabotaged. The numbers, the conflicting stories, and the sabotaged test add up to strong evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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