Spy rework: Intelligence

[zigbigadorlou]

For years now, spy counts have been public for anyone who knows where to look because of an exploit in spy odds calculations. My suggestion is threefold:

1. Eliminate spy odds. They don't do much, and can largely be replaced with...

2. Spy odds calculator. Make it public and accurate so if you know spy count you can easily get odds.

3. Unlimited offensive intel operations. This would allow people to still automate and centralize spying, but it would be at a cost. 

[hidude45454]

Spy odds calculator:

https://politicsandwar.com/battlesim/espionage/

Unlimited intel ops:

So what exactly is the issue here?

[Jacob Knox]

1 minute ago, hidude45454 said:

Unlimited intel ops:

That's unlimited defensive intel ops. The suggestion is unlimited offensive intel ops.

[zigbigadorlou]

27 minutes ago, hidude45454 said:

Spy odds calculator:

https://politicsandwar.com/battlesim/espionage/

Unlimited intel ops:

So what exactly is the issue here?

Its primarily a mechanism to buff intel ops so we can hide spy counts.  Like Jacob said, unlimited offensive intel ops.

[hidude45454]

Misunderstood given what I said was unlimited offensive ops against the same target.

Each nation getting unlimited offensive intel ops is a terrible idea though, eliminates OPSEC entirely and also eliminates a bunch of opportunity cost that gets factored into spy ops. It would also be super annoying for centralized spying and also isn't as expensive as you might think. So not sure what benefit it brings.

[Majima Goro]

10 hours ago, zigbigadorlou said:

Unlimited offensive intel operations.

There are ways to calculate spy count without knowing the odds now....Besides, the cost to spy check an entire sphere of 1500 nations would be as low as 29m.

[zigbigadorlou]

4 hours ago, Majima Goro said:

There are ways to calculate spy count without knowing the odds now....Besides, the cost to spy check an entire sphere of 1500 nations would be as low as 29m.

Alright, how do people calculate spy count without odds? My primary goal in this idea is to make counts discoverable but hidden for the general public. 

I'll be honest, I didn't remember the odds being as high as they are with only 1 spy. Granted I've basically never bothered using intel since pretty much all of the info is publicly available with public (or private) bots. 

12 hours ago, hidude45454 said:

Each nation getting unlimited offensive intel ops is a terrible idea though, eliminates OPSEC entirely and also eliminates a bunch of opportunity cost that gets factored into spy ops. It would also be super annoying for centralized spying and also isn't as expensive as you might think. So not sure what benefit it brings.

The goal would be to nominally hide spy counts. In order to figure out spy counts, you'd have to alert an entire coalition that you're doing it since they'd all get a notification that they're being spied. I don't remember the odds, but I would assume there is a risk of finding out who is doing it as well if you're too cheap. 

[hidude45454]

5 hours ago, zigbigadorlou said:

The goal would be to nominally hide spy counts. In order to figure out spy counts, you'd have to alert an entire coalition that you're doing it since they'd all get a notification that they're being spied. I don't remember the odds, but I would assume there is a risk of finding out who is doing it as well if you're too cheap. 

If you're doing it in peacetime, you could hire a set of pirates to do it for you. If you're doing it in wartime, doesn't matter if they know you're doing it or not. There are always ways around it. Seconding what Babai said, there's a 75% chance of success on 1 vs 60 so it would be super cheap and easy to spy an entire coalition as well.

Side note: ppl would be getting a lot of notifications from it during war lmao

[Majima Goro]

6 hours ago, zigbigadorlou said:

Alright, how do people calculate spy count without odds? My primary goal in this idea is to make counts discoverable but hidden for the general public. 

GDP minus costs "calculated" from city builds and military gives GNI. Then use the ingame GNI, check the difference and then divide the difference with upkeep for spy. This gives a highly accurate count. 

 

Do note that GNI has been problematic and apparently is broken for a lot of people. But it works for a vast majority.

[zigbigadorlou]

3 hours ago, hidude45454 said:

If you're doing it in peacetime, you could hire a set of pirates to do it for you. If you're doing it in wartime, doesn't matter if they know you're doing it or not. There are always ways around it. Seconding what Babai said, there's a 75% chance of success on 1 vs 60 so it would be super cheap and easy to spy an entire coalition as well.

Side note: ppl would be getting a lot of notifications from it during war lmao

Personally I'm ok with both of those. Realistically though, mass spying will probably be quite rare during peace time since you need to get a competent raider who can run a bot and not narc. I would bet most of the time the mass spying will be to scare people (good mechanic) or right before a war. 

Could be a fun mechanic imo. Def would need to get tested to see if its annoying though.

[Majima Goro]

5 hours ago, zigbigadorlou said:

competent raider who can run a bot and not narc.

Actually, there is a problem with this. Using bots to spy ingame is not allowed. They are not allowed to conduct ingame espionages.

Moreover, unlimited intel ops would mean you would have 2 ops always remaining as long as you do Intel ops only. From what I understand, people would just do the intel op 10mins before DC. If they see you have spies, they will assassinate them. Else they would just move to a different target.