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Obamacare doing in the Republicans?


Rozalia
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Obamacare has been something that has always held a lot of attention. It is as the critics say a pile of crap though... not necessarily for the reasons most of their critics say. It could and should be much better than it is which is a right wing health plan. Republicans should have been fine with Obamacare but they were in their "oppose everything" mode so now having won they have to get rid of it as they can't keep it. However with it being a right wing plan all they can do it seems is chip away at it and make it even worse.
 
Such a thing seems to me to be a possible winner for the Democrats against the Republicans. Healthcare matters and Obamacare has and only will grow more popular as time goes on which will eradicate key Republican support, something they hardly need. The Democrats are currently at war with each other with the Clintonites seemingly overpowering the Progressives so it seems a Republican lite, the same old nonsense, will be the one who takes advantage... though some of those Progressives are so damn loony that such a thing might be for the best. 
 
Its an interesting issue and I suppose we'll see just how well Trump can handle it. Seems he either has to detach himself enough from this so it doesn't effect him or and this would be radical, he would need to disavow the Republican plan and go against it with his own plan. 
 
What do you guys think on all this?
 

And with that its done away with. I'll try to provide my thoughts on it below and will add it into the OP.
 
Trump/Ryancare was quite simply a disaster. Forget the Democrats against it, forget the standard Republican voters, even the most zealous of Trump supporters were against it. It passing would have pretty much doomed Trump to a crushing mid term loss. There is talk that this was Trump destroying enemies "with light", like for example his takedown of Romney by appearing to support him, getting the needed words said, and then pulling the rug out from under him. Many would say this is mental gymnastics on their end but... this was clearly not Trump, instead being the Corporate Republicans in the party. Trump put his name to it, supported it somewhat but nowhere to the degree he has for things such as the Wall, travel ban, and such.
 
By failing in the passing of this Trump avoids a landmine and cripples that wing of the party. Intended or not that is quite the positive for him. Trump as has been reported recently (though I'd seen it months back) seemed to support Universal Health Care and his talk on the trail sort of (not quite) seemed to be in that sort of direction. According to rumours there are people close to him urging him to go in that direction now. Will he? Would he wait for Obamacare to combust first? I'm not so sure on that. Trump seems overwhelmed with healthcare, it is one hell of an issue for American presidents after all. As such the most likely result is he will palm it off to Rand Paul/Ted Cruz to sort out. Some might see that as a positive... some might not. My personal view is the path with the most points at the end of it is in fact a form of Universal Health Care, the universal coverage he campaigned on. His success thus far has been to go against the establishment and common ideological orthodoxy of the Republican Party, stick to that.

Edited by Rozalia
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Bad Obamacare should be abolished, completely and utterly! 

 

I think free health should be provided to members of the military/vets. If we do that then people who are potentially sick will be encouraged to sign up and enlist allowing our military to become great again. Healthcare should be paid for other then that. 

Edited by Donald Trump
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Bad Obamacare should be abolished, completely and utterly! 

 

I think free health should be provided to members of the military/vets. If we do that then people who are potentially sick will be encouraged to sign up and enlist allowing our military to become great again. Healthcare should be paid for other then that. 

You can't join the military if you have prior-existing health issues that would effect your ability to serve. You get kicked out for that.

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01:05:55 <%fistofdoom> im out of wine

01:06:03 <%fistofdoom> i winsih i had port
01:06:39 <@JoshF{BoC}> fistofdoom: is the snowman drunk with you

01:07:32 <%fistofdoom> i knet i forgot somehnt

 

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I'm talking more minor issues that people would abuse free healthcare for. 

Oh... uh. Glasses? They give you glasses if you need them.

x0H0NxD.jpg?1

 

01:05:55 <%fistofdoom> im out of wine

01:06:03 <%fistofdoom> i winsih i had port
01:06:39 <@JoshF{BoC}> fistofdoom: is the snowman drunk with you

01:07:32 <%fistofdoom> i knet i forgot somehnt

 

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Well the news out right now is that Trump backs the Republican health care plan but that could well change if the backlash grows large enough. He hates to be blamed for things so throwing the Republicans under the bus is hardly an alien move. If I were to suggest a move... he should propose something out there that has more coverage than Obamacare. If it passes then the cost or overall effect matters little in political terms. If it doesn't and instead the Republicans get their one through then Trump is fully detached from it. I'd be surprised if he were to do such a move however. 

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making anything free, or at least introducing government mandated healthcare was always going to end in disaster. The classic American mindset is to earn as much as you can and spend on only the stuff you want, which means minimal taxes for public programs. Albeit, government intervention is a popular sentiment among youth, every time it has been introduced it has never been in the way that people wish for it to be. Medicare in Australia only covers some shit, and most of the time you have to pay out of pocket whilst also paying the Medicare tax levy. 

 

I just have a problem with being required to pay for something I don't and won't use. As for Obamacare, the system goes against the American principles I mentioned earlier, so dissidents who don't contribute to the program inadvertently contribute to the excessive fees. Healthcare is a popular subject in the political sphere as it's something not everyone has an opinion about, so it's easy to influence, and the popular sentiment is "every other first world country do it, why not America?" Without delving into the issues associated with free healthcare, Obamacare will probably have to see the light of day for a lot longer yet, maybe it will be a more important issue when it's time for Trump's second term, as people will be feeling the strain of healthcare more by then. 

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If I were in Trump's shoes, I'd say "Lets start with this. Its not exactly what I want, but its a whole lot better then letting the Obamacare death spiral continue. We will get this first step taken care of, and we'll push for other legislation as needed to improve what needs improving." Then promptly do nothing. Really, poor people don't get insurance, rich people get tax breaks, what's not to like from a Republican perspective? Oh yeah, huge deficit increases. But whatever, you can blame those on Obama.

Duke of House Greyjoy

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We already have socialized medical care; just the worst and most expensive form of it possible. Poor people and the uninsured can't afford preventative care so they always end up in the ER for much more severe and expensive problems. Once they tell the hospital they can't pay the government pays on their behalf. American principles are retarded for wanting less government spending simultaneously avoiding the single-payer system which would actual.ly save a substantial amount of money.

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Healthcare, to quote our glorious president, is "complicated, like nothing you've seen before." 

 

In essence, I agree. I think in order to reduce the cost of healthcare, there are so major societal and cultural aspects that Americans need to change. Strictly within the context of free market insurance, the only way for premium costs to go down is for healthcare itself to go down. This should be done through structural changes in the healthcare system as well as changes in social norms and customs. 

 

For example, one way to reduce healthcare (and what Obamacare attempts to do) is to encourage people to seek preventative care through frequent checkups in the hopes that prophylactic treatment is cheaper than (presumably, and statistically speaking) open-heart surgery. Obamacare attempts to do this through the individual mandate, where by forcing people to have health insurance, Obamacare assumes people would use it for checkups with the doctor. That's not necessarily the case. 

 

Another way to reduce the costs of healthcare is to field more primary care physicians as part of the prophylactic methodology. Problem is, the US has a shortage of primary care docs (mostly due to the fact that they earn roughly the same amount as a school administrator but with an extra $200,000 school debt). One of the solutions that's been running around is by putting nurse practitioners and other mid-level healthcare professionals into the primary care role, though many criticize the solution for having other structural problems related to writing prescriptions and other aspects of biomedical ethics and economics. 

 

I believe the best way to reduce healthcare costs is the slow and painful way by changing our food and exercise culture. Fact of the matter is, you have an extra 50 pounds of fat and you have higher instances of cardiovascular disease (which is, in itself, extremely expensive). It doesn't help that a cheeseburger (with 400-500 Kcalories) is roughly the same price as a small salad (with only 100-250 Kcalories). This disproportionately affects the poor, who lack both the wealth to consume a healthier diet and time to prepare said diet and exercise. 

 

We are at a curious point in history, where late 20th century medical exploits extended the lifespan of the human body but failed to expand the working lifespan proportionately. Also, elderly tend to have more health complications which inherently increases the cost of healthcare. By failing to extend the working lifespan proportionately, it prevents the elderly from producing enough money to combat health consequences. There are many cases where the elderly (or chronically sick) are simply unable to make enough to pay for the treatment. Obamacare attempts to address this with the individual mandate in order to force young, healthy individuals to pay for the costs. That ultimately is a lame bandaid over the larger socio-cultural aspect of healthcare. But at least Obamacare attempts to address the issue. 

 

AHCA is criticized for being "Obamacare 2.0" by the libertarian right and "fracking the elderly" by the liberal left. It is at this point that I recall a conversation between Roz and I about being "moderate" and the "third-way" people that sell out both sides. In this instance, I think I have to agree. 


Also, Roz, I'm still in the process of looking over our Swedish debate, I will get back to you. 

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It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose.

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making anything free, or at least introducing government mandated healthcare was always going to end in disaster. The classic American mindset is to earn as much as you can and spend on only the stuff you want, which means minimal taxes for public programs. Albeit, government intervention is a popular sentiment among youth, every time it has been introduced it has never been in the way that people wish for it to be. Medicare in Australia only covers some shit, and most of the time you have to pay out of pocket whilst also paying the Medicare tax levy. 

 

I just have a problem with being required to pay for something I don't and won't use. As for Obamacare, the system goes against the American principles I mentioned earlier, so dissidents who don't contribute to the program inadvertently contribute to the excessive fees. Healthcare is a popular subject in the political sphere as it's something not everyone has an opinion about, so it's easy to influence, and the popular sentiment is "every other first world country do it, why not America?" Without delving into the issues associated with free healthcare, Obamacare will probably have to see the light of day for a lot longer yet, maybe it will be a more important issue when it's time for Trump's second term, as people will be feeling the strain of healthcare more by then. 

 

Getting caught up in an old style thinking is ultimately why things are such a mess to begin with. The world is different and even America's resistance to such things has gone down heavily if the likes of Sanders can successfully run. We can also see this with some of the people complaining now. They will talk ill of such things but when it comes down to it... they want them.

 

Ultimately on healthcare America is being taken for a ride. A strong government that can bring them in line with price controls and other measures is required to address the issue or it will simply get worse and worse. 

 

Healthcare, to quote our glorious president, is "complicated, like nothing you've seen before." 

 

In essence, I agree. I think in order to reduce the cost of healthcare, there are so major societal and cultural aspects that Americans need to change. Strictly within the context of free market insurance, the only way for premium costs to go down is for healthcare itself to go down. This should be done through structural changes in the healthcare system as well as changes in social norms and customs. 

 

For example, one way to reduce healthcare (and what Obamacare attempts to do) is to encourage people to seek preventative care through frequent checkups in the hopes that prophylactic treatment is cheaper than (presumably, and statistically speaking) open-heart surgery. Obamacare attempts to do this through the individual mandate, where by forcing people to have health insurance, Obamacare assumes people would use it for checkups with the doctor. That's not necessarily the case. 

 

Another way to reduce the costs of healthcare is to field more primary care physicians as part of the prophylactic methodology. Problem is, the US has a shortage of primary care docs (mostly due to the fact that they earn roughly the same amount as a school administrator but with an extra $200,000 school debt). One of the solutions that's been running around is by putting nurse practitioners and other mid-level healthcare professionals into the primary care role, though many criticize the solution for having other structural problems related to writing prescriptions and other aspects of biomedical ethics and economics. 

 

I believe the best way to reduce healthcare costs is the slow and painful way by changing our food and exercise culture. Fact of the matter is, you have an extra 50 pounds of fat and you have higher instances of cardiovascular disease (which is, in itself, extremely expensive). It doesn't help that a cheeseburger (with 400-500 Kcalories) is roughly the same price as a small salad (with only 100-250 Kcalories). This disproportionately affects the poor, who lack both the wealth to consume a healthier diet and time to prepare said diet and exercise. 

 

We are at a curious point in history, where late 20th century medical exploits extended the lifespan of the human body but failed to expand the working lifespan proportionately. Also, elderly tend to have more health complications which inherently increases the cost of healthcare. By failing to extend the working lifespan proportionately, it prevents the elderly from producing enough money to combat health consequences. There are many cases where the elderly (or chronically sick) are simply unable to make enough to pay for the treatment. Obamacare attempts to address this with the individual mandate in order to force young, healthy individuals to pay for the costs. That ultimately is a lame bandaid over the larger socio-cultural aspect of healthcare. But at least Obamacare attempts to address the issue. 

 

AHCA is criticized for being "Obamacare 2.0" by the libertarian right and "fracking the elderly" by the liberal left. It is at this point that I recall a conversation between Roz and I about being "moderate" and the "third-way" people that sell out both sides. In this instance, I think I have to agree. 

Also, Roz, I'm still in the process of looking over our Swedish debate, I will get back to you. 

 

A good analysis from what I can see. It is indeed a complicated matter and won't that simply can't be fixed by throwing more money at it as the NHS's problems in Britain show quite clearly. 

 

A halfway house won't ever serve anybody no. The government be it America's current or the one that came before need to commit to one side of the equation and just go with it as ultimately that is for the best, and with even the likes of Breitbart on the attack I'm interested to see where it swings. I hope not on the libertarian side of it that wants people dying in the streets. 

 

Alright.

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Just adopt the French system and nationalize all healthcare costs and leave everything else as is. Government already beats private sector in insurance and very low administrative costs. Just let them negotiate prices and act as the insurer and Obamacare becomes what it should've been.

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My healthcare plan: Let the Republicans totally &#33;@#&#036; it up. Crush them in the 2018 mid terms. Put in a good president in 2020. Enact single payer as people say "no, we don't wany any right-wing economic ideas, such as Obamacare, anymore."

Duke of House Greyjoy

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My healthcare plan: Let the Republicans totally [email protected]#$ it up. Crush them in the 2018 mid terms. Put in a good president in 2020. Enact single payer as people say "no, we don't wany any right-wing economic ideas, such as Obamacare, anymore."

......

 

Wanting your president to &#33;@#&#036; up is like wanting the pilot of your plane to screw up.

"If a person is satisfied with everything,then he is a complete idiot.A normal person cannot be satisfied with everything."~Vladimir Putin

 

"Every human being makes mistakes."~Ian Smith

 

We do not know what tomorrow will bring. We are not prophets. This is a step in the dark. We can only proceed into the future with faith.~Pieter Wilhelm Botha

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My healthcare plan: Let the Republicans totally [email protected]#$ it up. Crush them in the 2018 mid terms. Put in a good president in 2020. Enact single payer as people say "no, we don't wany any right-wing economic ideas, such as Obamacare, anymore."

 

Thats not how it works. If Obamacare ultimately messes the Republicans up then that does in no way help the case for single payer. The Democrats are fighting for Obamacare (a right wing healthcare plan) and if they win on that then they will simply state that something such as Obamacare is simply what the people want and look at what happened when the Republicans went against it.  

 

 

You guys need to break the current narrative of "Protect Obamcare" and make it more "Burn Obamacare, including the Republican version, to the ground and bring in single payer". Alternatively you could take the party from the Clintonites, but that seems to be a lost cause.

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Republicans managed to get into power by lying about Obamacare and blaming rising premiums and health costs on the ACA law, but they know if they actually blow it up things will get much worse, so they're in a bind. They've deceived their moronic voter base into believing that blowing up Obamacare will solve all their problems, but if they prove that to be incorrect that could shatter more illusions than just that one.

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Republicans managed to get into power by lying about Obamacare and blaming rising premiums and health costs on the ACA law, but they know if they actually blow it up things will get much worse, so they're in a bind. They've deceived their moronic voter base into believing that blowing up Obamacare will solve all their problems, but if they prove that to be incorrect that could shatter more illusions than just that one.

 

You shouldn't be insulting the voters like that. Perhaps if your message was strong enough they wouldn't have believed that. Beyond that those same people you insult are those who can do something here as Republicans care all of zero for anyone else being against their plan.

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Thats not how it works. If Obamacare ultimately messes the Republicans up then that does in no way help the case for single payer. The Democrats are fighting for Obamacare (a right wing healthcare plan) and if they win on that then they will simply state that something such as Obamacare is simply what the people want and look at what happened when the Republicans went against it.  

 

 

You guys need to break the current narrative of "Protect Obamcare" and make it more "Burn Obamacare, including the Republican version, to the ground and bring in single payer". Alternatively you could take the party from the Clintonites, but that seems to be a lost cause.

 

But everyone, to some extent even the left, fears big government. I think people will oppose single payer for the same reason why people would have opposed Bernie Sanders: "Socialism" is still a curse word in this country. Back me up here, Wisdomtree. I can already see the right wing political campaign against it: they show some drug addicted guy, and then asks if you want to pay for his opioid addiction. Other arguments include that it doesn't scale up. A single payer system works in Sweden because, quoting Mr. Bill O'Reilly: "there are like 6 people in Sweden!" 

 

What Republicans (and to some extent, Democrats) are trying to do, is sell people on a healthcare system with some degree of a free-market basis to it. It's just something about corporate entities savagely fighting in the free market hunger games to the death gives all righteous Americans boners lasting more than 4 hours. In theory, the decreasing number of companies on the insurance market exchange can be interpreted as something akin to the rise of big business and trusts in the late 20th century, you could try and pass regulations. Supposedly, allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines could help, though I would argue without certain regulations in place, the same thing would happen on a national scale instead. 

 

I think a single-payer system would only exacerbate crimes against minorities and immigrants, and ironically bringing back a new wave of racism and xenophobia far more intense than anything we've seen since the '60s. 

It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose.

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Just go to Venezuela if you want that. 

 

To be fair, figure 4 is likely more indicative of the sweeping extent of heart disease in this country more than anything else. Our Big Macs do screw up coronaries. I wonder if cardiologists truly appreciate the level of job security provided by the fast food industry? You bet your ass if I was a cardiologist I would invest in McDonald's stock. 

  • Upvote 1

It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose.

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But everyone, to some extent even the left, fears big government. I think people will oppose single payer for the same reason why people would have opposed Bernie Sanders: "Socialism" is still a curse word in this country. Back me up here, Wisdomtree. I can already see the right wing political campaign against it: they show some drug addicted guy, and then asks if you want to pay for his opioid addiction. Other arguments include that it doesn't scale up. A single payer system works in Sweden because, quoting Mr. Bill O'Reilly: "there are like 6 people in Sweden!" 

 

What Republicans (and to some extent, Democrats) are trying to do, is sell people on a healthcare system with some degree of a free-market basis to it. It's just something about corporate entities savagely fighting in the free market hunger games to the death gives all righteous Americans boners lasting more than 4 hours. In theory, the decreasing number of companies on the insurance market exchange can be interpreted as something akin to the rise of big business and trusts in the late 20th century, you could try and pass regulations. Supposedly, allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines could help, though I would argue without certain regulations in place, the same thing would happen on a national scale instead. 

 

I think a single-payer system would only exacerbate crimes against minorities and immigrants, and ironically bringing back a new wave of racism and xenophobia far more intense than anything we've seen since the '60s.

 

People in America have already rejected the dogma of a free market stance on trade. Not just Trump voters but the ones that make up the left wing in the Democrats. 

 

With that in mind it is hardly impossible for it to change on healthcare too. We've seen what Obamacare is, that being crap. As such the left needs to focus on that and push for something more leftward. Instead due to this being the Democrats we're talking about they will defend a system like Obamacare to the death instead. 

 

Just go to Venezuela if you want that. 

 

cvi2u9n.png

 

There are reasons for all those things. Going single payer doesn't just default you into perfection as there are issues to take care of. Take for example the amount of patients seen in Britain which a big reason for is that because people with minor injuries will go to the hospital instead of using other services available. The ignorance on injuries among the populace all round swamps the health service at most levels which leads to medical professionals being more limited in the time they spend with people as they have other people to see after all. This in turn leads to the health service failing which means the government takes the easy route and gives it more money... but the problems still exist, get worse, and then later they got to ask for even more money. The issues can't be solved however by just throwing more money at it.

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People in America have already rejected the dogma of a free market stance on trade. Not just Trump voters but the ones that make up the left wing in the Democrats. 

 

With that in mind it is hardly impossible for it to change on healthcare too. We've seen what Obamacare is, that being crap. As such the left needs to focus on that and push for something more leftward. Instead due to this being the Democrats we're talking about they will defend a system like Obamacare to the death instead. Yes, allowing the Republicans to decide on what kind of health reform we should use was a mistake. Next time it's single-payer all the way.

 

 

There are reasons for all those things. Going single payer doesn't just default you into perfection as there are issues to take care of. Take for example the amount of patients seen in Britain which a big reason for is that because people with minor injuries will go to the hospital instead of using other services available. Americans already do this. The ignorance on injuries among the populace all round swamps the health service at most levels which leads to medical professionals being more limited in the time they spend with people as they have other people to see after all. This in turn leads to the health service failing which means the government takes the easy route and gives it more money... but the problems still exist, get worse, and then later they got to ask for even more money. The issues can't be solved however by just throwing more money at it. Sure it can. If it's not employing enough NPs and MDs, you hire more to deal with demand.

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