Election Discussion

[Doktor Avalanche]

-Me

 

But why don't you just list the facts that you know about Snowden.  I will fill in the open source stuff.

Lemme guess. You are going to say you knew him, or sources who know him? You are going to say you are CIA or something?

[LordRahl2]

I am not in the CIA, no.

 

It will be much easier for everyone if you convey the fact chain that leads you to your current thoughts on him.

[Doktor Avalanche]

From Wikipedia:

Edward Joseph Snowden (born June 21, 1983) is an American computer professional, former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) employee and former contractor for the United States government who copied and leaked classified information from the National Security Agency (NSA) in 2013 without prior authorization. His disclosures revealed numerous global surveillance programs, many run by the NSA and the Five Eyes Intelligence Alliance with the cooperation of telecommunication companies and European governments.

 

In 2013, Snowden was hired by an NSA contractor, Booz Allen Hamilton, after previous employment with Dell and the CIA.[4] On May 20, 2013, Snowden flew to Hong Kong after leaving his job at an NSA facility in Hawaii and in early June he revealed thousands of classified NSA documents to journalists Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and Ewen MacAskill. Snowden came to international attention after stories based on the material appeared in The Guardian and The Washington Post. Further disclosures were made by other newspapers including Der Spiegel and The New York Times.

 

On June 21, 2013, the U.S. Department of Justice unsealed charges against Snowden of two counts of violating the Espionage Act of 1917 and theft of government property.[5] On June 23, he flew to Moscow, Russia, where he remained for over a month. Russian authorities granted him one-year asylum, which was later extended to three years. As of 2015, he was still living in an undisclosed location in Russia while seeking asylum elsewhere.[6]

 

A subject of controversy, Snowden has been variously called a hero, a whistleblower, a dissident, a patriot and a traitor. His disclosures have fueled debates over mass surveillance, government secrecy and the balance between national security and information privacy.

Now what evidence do you have that he is, according to your post...

Because he was a paid Russian spy who duped a whole bunch of us.  I am all about whistle blowers.  Whistle blowers target their leaks at specific problems.  Snowden used a "wide angle" theft approach and cloaked his activities with "freedom" as an excuse which is not what whistle blowers do.  He promptly fled to seek asylum and get his $$s

You claim he is a Russian spy because he did not target his leak at a specific problem. A specific what? He exposed breaches in international surveillance protocols which were, bluntly, illegal. Considering we do not hear about other whistleblowers except the dead ones, he fled the country and considering our current and former administrations I cannot blame him.

 

Your claim is not new. Mark Levin said the same things when he ended up in Russia with asylum. However Levin stated his reason on pure speculation. What is your reasoning, and evidence?

Edited September 30, 2016 by Lo Pan

[LordRahl2]

Great!  We can now construct the chain of evidence. 

 

Snowden was a back end server tech at the NSA.  He had access to TS/SCI material.  He copied almost all the data he had access to and fled with it.  He released a very small portion of the data to wikileaks.  He took the rest of it with him first to China, who rejected him, then to Russia who took him on.  He currently receives funds from the Russian government.  He had the data with him in both China and Russia.  It is certain that Russia, at a minimum, received access to the data.  He did not leak 60 gigabytes of data to wikileaks.

(All of the above are facts - do you dispute any of them?).

 

I note that your source says:

 

who copied and leaked classified information from the National Security Agency (NSA) in 2013 without prior authorization.

 

That is incorrect.  Or at least it does not convey what happened with accuracy (which is important).  Here is an open source document (first one I found on my google search):

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/how-much-did-snowden-take-least-three-times-number-reported-f8C11038702

British authorities revealed Friday that NSA leaker Edward Snowden took at least three times as many highly sensitive documents as previously reported, and possibly far more.

 

The statement, dated Tuesday, said that the drive contains approximately 60 gigabytes of data, of which only 20 gigabytes have been so far been “accessed.â€

 

 

The "and leaked" is what is at issue.  Again, he did not leak 60 gigabytes of data.  It was far far less that he gave to wikileaks.

 

So as follow up questions for you:

Why do you assess that he took 60 gigs of data with him?  Where did this data go and why?

 

Also, I have no idea who Mark Levin is nor do I care really.

Edited September 30, 2016 by LordRahl2

[Doktor Avalanche]

Great!  We can now construct the chain of evidence. 

 

Snowden was a back end server tech at the NSA.  He had access to TS/SCI material.  He copied almost all the data he had access to and fled with it.  He released a very small portion of the data to wikileaks.  He took the rest of it with him first to China, who rejected him, then to Russia who took him on.  He currently receives funds from the Russian government.  He had the data with him in both China and Russia.  It is certain that Russia, at a minimum, received access to the data.  He did not leak 60 gigabytes of data to wikileaks.

(All of the above are facts - do you dispute any of them?).

 

I note that your source says:

 

That is incorrect.  Or at least it does not convey what happened with accuracy (which is important).  Here is an open source document (first one I found on my google search):

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/how-much-did-snowden-take-least-three-times-number-reported-f8C11038702

 

The "and leaked" is what is at issue.  Again, he did not leak 60 gigabytes of data.  It was far far less that he gave to wikileaks.

 

So as follow up questions for you:

Why do you assess that he took 60 gigs of data with him?  Where did this data go and why?

 

Also, I have no idea who Mark Levin is nor do I care really.

He admits to having more data. The certainty of Snowden releasing the information to Russia, from your source is also a speculation on their behalf. NBC has been admittedly biased towards Snowden from the get go. 

Mark Levin is a talk radio host- a Nationalist Tea Party Patriot flag waver.

[LordRahl2]

He admits to having more data. The certainty of Snowden releasing the information to Russia, from your source is also a speculation on their behalf. NBC has been admittedly biased towards Snowden from the get go. 

Mark Levin is a talk radio host- a Nationalist Tea Party Patriot flag waver.

 

I was happy that NBC pooped up.  It is a pro-Snowden source (generally).  I do not believe that the source I provided specified that he gave it to Russia.

 

I ask YOU what happened to it?  Logically.

 

Interesting...actually, I still do not care who he is.

[Doktor Avalanche]

He is holding on to it, as he has threatened if anything happens to him the information will be released.

It is called a contingency plan and sadly due to the way our government has evolved into the shit hole it is now, is not a bad idea.

[LordRahl2]

He is holding on to it, as he has threatened if anything happens to him the information will be released.

 

So you believe he is hanging out with gigabites of secret and TS/SCI information in Russia, having been interrogated by the FSB for weeks, and now being payed by the Russian government yet has not disclosed the information to Russia?

[Doktor Avalanche]

So you believe he is hanging out with gigabites of secret and TS/SCI information in Russia, having been interrogated by the FSB for weeks, and now being payed by the Russian government yet has not disclosed the information to Russia?

I am pretty sure, my assumption, that the Russians got a hold of it, whether by their own means or handed to them by Snowden for his ability to stay in Russia. However even the NSA nor the CIA, according to my sources(relatives and friends who work for/with both) claim that he was not a Russian spy.

 

What is sad about all this is that we continue to concern ourselves more about the whistleblower than the information he gave up his rights for. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by Lo Pan

[Jose Rodriguez III]

Snowden had one job, literally one job.

 

He claimed that he revealed what he did because he wanted to show the American people that their trust was being abused. That's all fine and dandy and I appreciate the sacrifice he made in that respect.

 

Then of course he suddenly decided EVERYONE in the world needed to know the finer details of American/British SIG/ELECINT as if every other country in the world somehow lacks a spy agencies of their own and never engages in espionage. Allies all spy on each other. No one talks about it because it would be bad publicity. This is what marks the difference between a whistleblower who gave up his rights and a man who's playing a moral crusader IMO.

 

I mean, am I happy that Foreign powers engage in cyber espionage against the US? No, but I'm not stupidly naive enough to believe that an agency who's literal job it is to collect and analyze intelligence is somehow evil for collecting and analyzing intelligence.

[LordRahl2]

bribe maybe? you dont suppose maybe hes just got really strong willpower

 

I do not really understand.  But no, I do not think he has "strong willpower".

 

 

I am pretty sure, my assumption, that the Russians got a hold of it, whether by their own means or handed to them by Snowden for his ability to stay in Russia. However even the NSA nor the CIA, according to my sources(relatives and friends who work for/with both) claim that he was not a Russian spy.

 

What is sad about all this is that we continue to concern ourselves more about the whistleblower than the information he gave up his rights for. 

 

That is fascinating.  Zero of my peers (upwards of 20 seniors I have discussed this with - all holding TS/SCIs and some experts on insider threats) share your friends and relatives thoughts on this matter.  In fact, as far as I can tell, the entire counter intelligence agency shares my "opinion".

 

My view is also far more logical in its entirety.

 

Again, lets review:

Snowden stole gigabits of data indiscriminately.  Whistle blowers only take specific data.

Snowden fled to China and sought to use the stolen data to gain asylum and $.

The Chinese rejected him but passed him off to the Russians.

He was transferred to Russia where the FSB debriefed him.

He currently has asylum in Russia and is paid by the Russians.

 

It is possible, but unlikely, that Snowden started as a whistle blower but was too incompetent to pass his data to wikileaks without discovery forcing him into paid Russian service.  More likely is that he started as a paid agent. 

I will entertain that he only became one once he screwed up on multiple occasions, however, that still does not explain why he stole so much data

This returns me to the more logical analysis that he was in the pay of foreign service agents from the beginning.

Edited September 30, 2016 by LordRahl2

[Doktor Avalanche]

Odd because most of my peers and family in positions among the NSA and CIA, or both in some cases, hold to what I told you and would disagree with you, which amounts to close to 30 people.

 

However, there is also something which both organizations do, which is called disinformation. Neither of us may know exactly what is going on with Snowden.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Lo Pan

[LordRahl2]

emmmmm lets say I buy that argument.

 

So then.  Up to logic:

Snowden was a. complete failure or b. he was a paid foreign agent.

 

The overwhelming body of facts support b.

[Buorhann]

Odd because most of my peers and family in positions among the NSA and CIA, or both in some cases, hold to what I told you and would disagree with you, which amounts to close to 30 people.

 

30 people with various positions in the NSA and CIA?  Er...

[Doktor Avalanche]

30 people with various positions in the NSA and CIA?  Er...

I have a large family and have made a lot of friends throughout the years, many made through family who have worked for and are still in. I have relations through marriage in Washington DC, Maryland, Virginia and New York. All four of my siblings are married, all into big families. I say about 30 because about 18 of my relatives, many through marriage, work for the NSA. Why? How often do people work for the same business or company and hire family members? Same thing with another part of the family, Cousins- and my wife's side of the family who work for the CIA, also friends of mine, some from my high school days who went the military route and eventually were hired on into the CIA. I have one associate who is from my junior high and high school days who sits on the board. About a dozen relatives and friends of mine work for the CIA, some also contracted and have jumped jobs into the NSA. It happens.

You would also be surprised how often the INS in San Diego and Los Angeles had to deal with the NSA on occasion back in the day, of which I used to work for in both offices. I am still in contact with a few of my old workers in ICE who still tell me on occasion they have to deal with NSA from time to time.

Also, not all of them work in the same office. Both the NSA and CIA are pretty huge, with lots of paper pushing positions. It is not a big deal and considering I am talking about three generations with 6 dozen families, the smallest unit being 6 members, that is a lot of family and only a handful of that work for the two.

 

EDIT: 26. My family and I added it up.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Lo Pan

[Doktor Avalanche]

emmmmm lets say I buy that argument.

 

So then.  Up to logic:

Snowden was a. complete failure or b. he was a paid foreign agent.

 

The overwhelming body of facts support b.

How is a complete failure successful in letting the public know of the breach of rights happening illegally? He confirmed what people have died trying to expose in the past.

[LordRahl2]

How is a complete failure successful in letting the public know of the breach of rights happening illegally? He confirmed what people have died trying to expose in the past.

 

"people have died trying to expose"?  hehehe that is really kind of funny.  Sounds like the plot to a so-so movie.

 

He plugged a thumb drive into a server stack and drug over a ginormous number of files, walked out the door, got on a plane, and coughed up everything he knew.  None of those things were hard - or potentially life threatening for that matter.

 

Remember though that I gave you a choice of alternatives.  The facts support two theories:

a. complete failure

b. he was a paid foreign agent

 

You chose to assume it was choice "a".  An IT specialist attempting to be a whistle blower accidentally acquired gigabits of information (massive fail).  Released it and managed to release his identity (massive fail).  Thought he could get paid by China so fled there (massive fail).  Finally, he got to Russia to pay him for his data (success?).

 

Again, the fact pattern clearly supports theory "b" which makes everything he did make sense.  Occam's razor, generic logic, etc.  To believe that he was exactly who he says he was (the bias in his self reported story should be quite obvious) you have to conducts some logic and mental acrobatics to arrive at even a plausible scenario that quickly falls apart when you apply scrutiny.

 

If you want to see what a successful and actual whistle blower is and does then look up Mark Felt.

 

Now, you should tell your 30 friends and family that there is mandatory annual training for government employees covering insider threats.  Apparently, they all slept through it or skipped it.  They need to conduct their mandatory training because the facts regarding the Snowden case will be provided to them there.  I will let my security manager know that the CIA and NSA are, apparently, pretty lax on this baseline requirement.

Edited September 30, 2016 by LordRahl2

[Doktor Avalanche]

If you want to see what a successful and actual whistle blower is and does then look up Mark Felt.

 

Now, you should tell your 30 friends and family that there is mandatory annual training for government employees covering insider threats.  Apparently, they all slept through it or skipped it.  They need to conduct their mandatory training because the facts regarding the Snowden case will be provided to them there.  I will let my security manager know that the CIA and NSA are, apparently, pretty lax on this baseline requirement.

After discussing this topic just today with some friends and family who work for either agencies, none of them can say he is innocent, nor that he took protocols proper or not. They are apparently now divided, however not much can be said about everything because it is an open file for both organizations and no one publicly has every fact, even most of them do not have everything due to clearance. They all admit he crossed the line in Russia, so this crow tastes great!

[Ogaden]

Snowden revealed that the US was harvesting way more data than they legally were allowed to, of US citizens especially which they are expressly forbidden from spying on.

 

Because the government broke the law, Snowden has to spend the rest of his life in exile.  Here's a question, when James Clapper was revealed to have lied to congress in his testimony, why is HE not in prison over contempt of congress?

[LordRahl2]

-

 

Thanks fam =)- 

 

You are still awesome.

 

 

Snowden revealed that the US was harvesting way more data than they legally were allowed to, of US citizens especially which they are expressly forbidden from spying on.  He also stole additional gigabites of TS/SCI information and sold it to Russia.

 

Because the government broke the law, Snowden broke the law he has to spend the rest of his life in exile.

 

ftfy.  Snowden broke the law and is a traitor.  He tried to cover himself in a veneer of a whistle blower and many people bought it

 

See, I generally FAVOR whistle blowers.  If he had been this savior of the American people, as he would have you believe, then he would have taken specific files related to the project and released them and only them to Wikileaks.  That is precisely what he should have done.  He did not do that.

[Ogaden]

lol what, he never gave Russia anything, he didn't even HAVE the data when he went to Russia, he wasn't even going to Russia in the first place, he was trying to get to Equador and the US cancelled his passport while he was in the air, Moscow was the first stop on his trip (HK-Moscow-Cuba-Equador).

 

He was trapped in the airport for a month, as the US had made him basically an unperson.  The FSB said if they cooperated with Russian intelligence they would give him residency and asylum and he said no, so he stayed in the airport.  The US sent a rendition team and conned Snowden's dad into flying there to try and coax him into being basically kidnapped out of Russia, but ironically Snowden wasn't able to leave the departure lounge and Snowden's dad figured out they were basically trying to kidnap his son.

 

Snowden got residency in Russia finally when the US forced down the presidential plane of the President of Bolivia when they *suspected* that Bolivia might be trying to get him out of the country (they weren't).  Putin at this point finally gives the guy a *temporary* residency permit, and basically told the US tell you what, we'll extradite him if you sign an extradition treaty and get all our murderous scumbags extradited from where they're currently chilling in Miami.

 

The US has yet to take Putin up on this offer, but Russia is at this point basically trying to use Snowden to get an extradition treaty with the USA.  The idea that he's a Russian intelligence asset is laughable, if he WAS an intelligence asset, he wouldn't have to live day to day trying to dodge extradition at the sufferance of the Russian interior ministry.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Ogaden

[Rozalia]

It's all a conspiracy!

 

[Doktor Avalanche]

Thanks fam =)- 

 

You are still awesome.

They did however say you do not know every fact either. Yes, thank you fam!

Apparently what we know is not even a tenth of the discussion.

[LordRahl2]

They did however say you do not know every fact either. Yes, thank you fam!

Apparently what we know is not even a tenth of the discussion.

I didn't say that I did. I do have a pretty good laydown, even from open source stuff, and filling in holes can get you pretty close with a high probability of accuracy.

 

Very clever Roz. Again your disconnect with reality oozes into your posting.

 

O, I am on mobile, I will reply to you when I get back home.

[LordRahl2]

lol what, he never gave Russia anything, he didn't even HAVE the data when he went to Russia,

 

You are factually incorrect.

 

 

 Moscow was the first stop on his trip (HK-Moscow....

 

No.  Read what you wrote.  HK was the first stop on "the trip".  The Chinese told him to get the !@#$ out and he went to Moscow (with the data).  He proceed to Moscow.  What occurred and what final bargaining took place at the airport with the FSB is not actually know in an open source format.  What is know is that he is now paid by Russia and resides there.  I have no doubt he would like to !@#$ off to some place like Ecuador.

 

The bit about his dad is fascinating but irrelevant.  As is the president of Bolivia.  That Russia has extracted the data they can out of him and is willing to try to get its hands on personas non-gratta in the US in exchange for him is probably true - but does not have bearing on the facts that we are arguing about.

 

This may shock you, since you are basically regurgitating the version of events that Snowden floated, is that people lie and a good portion of what he has said is known to be false.  The evident chain that is openly available still leads to the conclusion that he was a paid foreign spy.  Really, I do not know why you care or are defending him.