Jon Snow Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 What are peoples current opinions on the state of affairs in thr Ukraine and tensions between the West and Russia? The Guardian has live updates http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/crimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMelvin Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Honestly, I believe the West should stay in the west and Russia should stay in the their boarders and let Ukraine handle its own business. The West ( United States and Europe) DO NOT HAVE ANY MONEY TO BE SPENDING ON WAR. They both are still reeling from the late 2000's recession and need to spend money in their boarders, not in other places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grillick Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Wouldn't it be great if we spent money on our boarders, instead of wasting all out time and money on our borders? Oh, and I think we need a good world war. People in my generation are growing fat and complacent. 2 Quote "It's hard to be a team player when you're omnipotent." - Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 Honestly, I believe the West should stay in the west and Russia should stay in the their boarders and let Ukraine handle its own business. The West ( United States and Europe) DO NOT HAVE ANY MONEY TO BE SPENDING ON WAR. They both are still reeling from the late 2000's recession and need to spend money in their boarders, not in other places. Think back to ww2, war is what brought many nations' economies back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Being a retired 20 year active duty U.S. Navy guy myself, this seems like a lot of "saber-rattling" on Russias part. With the riots in Kiev and the ousting of the Russian friendly leader and the fact that Obama stepped up and said....."hey, you Russians better not get involved or else....", and Putin not wanting to look weak infront of his own people, he acted. Also, that water-way north of the black sea is now completely controled by Russia....which to me is a bigger issue. The area the Russians invaded may occupied by Russian speaking folks who are fairly loyal to Russia, however, the physical land itself belongs to the Ukraine.....so this will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Me personally, I think the residents of that area need to make a choice.....formally announce their loyalty and remain Ukrainian, or announce their loyalty to Russia and move back there.....either way, the land is Ukrainian and the west should get involved to help get that land back....it is an invasion of a soviergn country....just the same as Kuwait back in tne early '90's. Hell if the west helps out, we could concivably build a coilition base in that area consisting of ground and navy units. Just my thoughts on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacharias Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Whenever I hear of this issue, the word "hypocrite" comes to mind. The USA told Russia to respect Ukraine's sovereignty "or else", yet when Russia infringed Georgia's sovereignty, the USA wasn't nearly this threatening towards Russia. Interesting. Anyways, we need to stop being the world's police force. Just let the Ukraine settle their own problems. If Russia begins slaughtering a bunch of protestors, then we should reevaluate the issue. Until then, just leave them be. 2 Quote "To say that nothing is true is to realise that the foundations of society are fragile and that we must the shepherds of our own civilization. To say that everything is permitted is to understand that we are the architects of our actions and that we must live with our consequences, whether glorious or tragic." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiratePaul Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 You said Georgia and it took me way too long to realize you didn't mean the state.But I agree with you. From what I understand, they (Russians) have been standing outside of Russian political buildings. Which is completely understandableIf you knew that a group of people almost hated you and wanted to have no connection with you, why wouldn't you defend all the things that mean something to you.Also, wasn't Chernobyl in Ukraine? 1 Quote DO WHAT YOU WANT CAUSE A PIRATE IS FREE! YOU ARE A PIRATE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayayay Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Sevastopol is quite important to Russia, even if controlled by a foreign nation, as it is still home to the Black Sea fleet. Russia is also becoming isolated on the international stage as more eastern bloc countries move closer to the west. Also, Russia isn't going to start a [world] war over this. If WW3 happened they hell would they do? Nuke humanity to oblivion? They have neither the military nor allies to win a war against NATO. Quote Orbis Wars | CSI: UPN | B I G O O F | PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea. On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said: This was !@#$ing gold. 10/10 possibly my favorite post on these forums yet. Sheepy said: I'm retarded, you win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiratePaul Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 You must not have played Metro: 2033 or Last Light?They nuked the shit out of Russia and wiped out an entire species. (I will not spoil more) Quote DO WHAT YOU WANT CAUSE A PIRATE IS FREE! YOU ARE A PIRATE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WISD0MTREE Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 War. It gets countries created. It gets them reformed. And most of all, it gets countries back on their feet. Right now, a time of unstable politics from the middle east, Ukraine, and even inside the USA. Will Russia prevent a war? Will Obamacare work? Will the UN ever become relevant? The answer is probably not. A world war. The USA now has a laser gun, but isn't fit for war anywhere else. From obesity and bad politics to small armies and debt, America is no longer a superpower. Russia is ready for an all out war, assuming that it is one on one, which is unlikely. China can't possibly handle feeding it's population without America, but needs to collect it's debt. Texas is America in WWII, a sleeping giant. With the oil and heavily armed militias ready to defend, Texas will become a small superpower like Britain. Britain has a nice navy, but won't be able to have enough to be a major player and will have to ally with someone. Mexico will have too many drug cartels for any army to invade easily. WWIII Coming to your doorstep. [/not_funny_movie_add] Looks like we have quite a mess on our hands. I seriously think that it is right around the corner. It could possibly end humanity with all of the weapons of mass destruction. Currently, China seems to be the best prepared. Someday, my fellow Texans... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Why can't we just settle things with an american-style football game.....our best against Russia's best against China's best against Britian's best.....winner take all!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambdadelta Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 The area the Russians invaded may occupied by Russian speaking folks who are fairly loyal to Russia, however, the physical land itself belongs to the Ukraine Just as a point of history, the only reason that Crimea is today a part of the Ukraine is because it was transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SFSR in 1954 by the Soviet Union. Prior to that, it was part of Russia (and Imperial Russia before that). I don't think it is unreasonable for the people of Crimea to exercise their right to self-determination and reject the coup-installed government in Kiev. Further, if the people of Crimea wish to have their security guaranteed by Russia while they exercise their right to self-determination, that is entirely their prerogative. tl;dr Kiev government should have thought of the consequences before engaging in a coup d'état (which was backed by the EU, btw) against the democratically-elected government of the Ukraine. On the main topic, I do not think this will lead to WW3. If the world leaders in charge of the major militaries were stupid enough to start WW3 over something like this, then we would have had several World Wars since 1945. Quote There is no order and no meaning, there is only the truth of The Signal. The Signal ever transmits from here to the eyes and ears of the 'verse. Can't Stop The Signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Why can't we just settle things with an american-style football game.....our best against Russia's best against China's best against Britian's best.....winner take all!!!! because those fools will only try kicking the ball instead of trying to score a touch down :X jokes aside, i honestly don't see the West acting too much on this. Yes, Ukraine can be a vital ally in Eastern Europe as a buffer state as well as an opportunity to chip away at Russian power, but right now there is not enough cause for the West to seek military intervention against the Russo's. on top of that, the sheer coalition that would have to be built would have to be one large enough to neutralize Russia, as well as the possibility of their allies...and that would be a feat considering China does have the Shanghai Cooperation Organization Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 Just as a point of history, the only reason that Crimea is today a part of the Ukraine is because it was transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SFSR in 1954 by the Soviet Union. Prior to that, it was part of Russia (and Imperial Russia before that). I don't think it is unreasonable for the people of Crimea to exercise their right to self-determination and reject the coup-installed government in Kiev. Further, if the people of Crimea wish to have their security guaranteed by Russia while they exercise their right to self-determination, that is entirely their prerogative. tl;dr Kiev government should have thought of the consequences before engaging in a coup d'état (which was backed by the EU, btw) against the democratically-elected government of the Ukraine. On the main topic, I do not think this will lead to WW3. If the world leaders in charge of the major militaries were stupid enough to start WW3 over something like this, then we would have had several World Wars since 1945. according to some reports, the coup wasn't the deal breaker to making the people of Crimea rise up...it was the act of getting rid of Russian as a second official language, making the citizenry feel belittled and second-class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambdadelta Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 according to some reports, the coup wasn't the deal breaker to making the people of Crimea rise up...it was the act of getting rid of Russian as a second official language, making the citizenry feel belittled and second-class They were both part of it. Crimea is a stronghold for the ousted President's supporters, so the coup was not popular there at all. Speaking of deal breakers though, that's what the coup itself was. There was a deal done, supposedly guaranteed by the EU, between the ousted President and his opposition to end the tensions. Then, not half a week later, he had been thrown out of office in a coup d'état. Sorry, but the new "government" in Kiev has no legitimacy in my eyes. Quote There is no order and no meaning, there is only the truth of The Signal. The Signal ever transmits from here to the eyes and ears of the 'verse. Can't Stop The Signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moloko Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 They're finally doing it. It's all going to fall apart from here on out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 he was "thrown out of office" after he fled the country as soon as the deal was signed though. that was when opposition siezed the chance and impeached him. to be fair it is sketchy but i think they did follow procedure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambdadelta Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 he was "thrown out of office" after he fled the country as soon as the deal was signed though. that was when opposition siezed the chance and impeached him. He fled the capital because the rioters in the street were storming his offices. The vote that "impeached" him was obviously conducted under duress of those rioters and there are reports that his supporters in the Parliament were threatened into voting for his impeachment. Quote There is no order and no meaning, there is only the truth of The Signal. The Signal ever transmits from here to the eyes and ears of the 'verse. Can't Stop The Signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow Posted March 2, 2014 Author Share Posted March 2, 2014 got a link for the duress bit? i havent come across any articles stating that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambdadelta Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 got a link for the duress bit? i havent come across any articles stating that? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26304842 In an address televised before the vote to impeach him, Mr Yanukovych described events in Kiev as a "coup". He insisted he was the "lawfully elected president" and compared the actions of the opposition to the rise to power of the Nazis in 1930s Germany. In his address Mr Yanukovych also called a raft of votes in Ukraine's parliament on Friday "illegitimate", claiming that MPs had been "beaten, pelted with stones and intimidated". Obviously the accusations must not be taken entirely at face value, but given what the coup forces have done so far, it wouldn't surprise me if it were so. Quote There is no order and no meaning, there is only the truth of The Signal. The Signal ever transmits from here to the eyes and ears of the 'verse. Can't Stop The Signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry LeRow Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 The question is: If the majority of crimea citizens want to be part of Russia and don't like Ukraine, is it an invasion or more a salvation? Yes, no country will dare to fight the russians back from the peninsula, the only one capable of doing so, USA, won't intervene either... I mean Obama's threat was "Stop it or I'll not come to the G8 this summer [where Putin doesn't even want him]". I don't see Russian as a superpower comparable to USA. They have a GDP far smaller than UK, America and the Saudis have more resources then them, the only justification for calling it a superpower is its military. Though I suppose many of the machines are still from sowjet times, especially the tanks. Russia is socially very instable and when it comes to money, referring to their GDP/capita of 14,000$, a poor country. Also Russia has a very large, effective navy, but can't compete with America's navy. In the end, the only true superpower is always the one that rules the seven seas, that's a historical proven fact (UK, Roman Empire, Spain,...) I think the west should wait until the referendum is over, and if the majority of crimeans want to be a part of Russia again (and that's the status quo), the ukraine shouldn't stop them. If the Ukraine would be stupid enough not to let the crimeans decide themselves, Mother Russia will intervene with a fairly just cause. Also I have to agree with Wisdomtree, USA isn't as strong anymore as it was 1, 2 decades ago. The high debt doesn't really matter, what matters is the federal europeanisation, letting unfunded liabilities rise and freedom sink. Texas is really the America in the USA, a roaring economy, far lower unemployment rate, poverty rate than eg California, lots of immigration, freedom (yes, that's debatable), lots of land and, at least in my eyes, sort of a trickle-up-politics. Quote I'm and INTJ (http://www.16personalities.com/intj-personality). What are you (http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grillick Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 tl;dr Kiev government should have thought of the consequences before engaging in a coup d'état (which was backed by the EU, btw) against the democratically-elected government of the Ukraine. Democratically-elected is a bit of a stretch, I'd say. The 2010 elections were rampant with corruption, and the Yanukovych government was more kleptocratic than democratic. Quote "It's hard to be a team player when you're omnipotent." - Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambdadelta Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 They have a GDP far smaller than UK, Not that much smaller. The UK's GDP in 2012 was $2.435 trillion USD. Russia's was $2.015 trillion USD. They're in the realm of comparable. Democratically-elected is a bit of a stretch, I'd say. The 2010 elections were rampant with corruption, and the Yanukovych government was more kleptocratic than democratic. Actually, the OSCE found the 2010 Presidential election in the Ukraine to have been more or less free and fair. Quote There is no order and no meaning, there is only the truth of The Signal. The Signal ever transmits from here to the eyes and ears of the 'verse. Can't Stop The Signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WISD0MTREE Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 On the main topic, I do not think this will lead to WW3. If the world leaders in charge of the major militaries were stupid enough to start WW3 over something like this, then we would have had several World Wars since 1945. Well, most politicians now haven't been in office since 2000. The ones that were in here long enough are mostly from 3rd world countries that don't matter. With the way Russia isn't backing down and Obama is being aggressive, it could possibly lead to a war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moloko Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 They're already mobilizing. This is how wars happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.