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Yeah, I edited in the VDS change in my previous reply. I swear to god I've seen a resource reduction in the past to them, now I'm searching through all the game changes. I do agree on the Fallout Shelter.

These changes have been a response to the increasingly large size of the games whales. Back in the mid 2010s when a "whale" was the size of a mid tier nation today a single nuke and missile a day weren't that bad. We aren't in the mid 2010s anymore. Whales today are easily c40+. A nuke and a missile a day isn't going to cut it when people have way more cities now then they did back then. As for the improved imp destruction, this is equal parts curse as it is a blessing, as addressed in the initial post. Nukes/missiles have not received any sort of RRS discount, at least in my time playing the game. VDS has had it's chance to block increased and reduces imp destruction. There's also the (relatively) newly added fallout shelter. I do personally think that fallout shelter should receive a large buff as a compromise for all the buffs that have been added in the new update for whales who can build the projects.

I'm not looking to stop raiding or nerf nukes. I'm looking to find balance. Everything but this has a reliable and effective counter. -At least $4mil a day in cash bonus' -250% updeclare change -Protection from spy ops the day they're built -Improved Imp destruction plus projects if you get them -Didn't they get a reduction in RSS requirements at some point too? This particular area of the game has been buffed so much with little to no balancing to counter those "positive" changes. I've been in this game so long that I've seen every military unit, spy operation, etc altered multiple times, both good and bad. This one has just been good, over and over. (Now that I look it over, the only "balance" that happened was the recent buff to VDS - which was long overdue)

2400ish Infra is what I'm getting depending on how you want to build other Imps (I included 5 Barracks, 1 Naval for the build just to hit raiding inactives). Think you can go as low as 2100 at the bare minimal, but if a Imp gets removed - you're screwed. The bonus' to production kinda screw up figuring the perfect build, and it's not considering resource projects. Takes about 10mins if you have a buddy, which if you're doing this as a group - easy. If you're solo and a introvert, definitely hard. IIRC, there's a script that makes rewarded ad bonus easier, but you're right - the payment doesn't always work.

As somone who recently became a nuker/pirate I managed to make a self sufficient build that makes uranium , gasoline and cash everyday to allow me to atleast make a nuke however I cannot make aluminium, even if I were to switch to africa I'd need to buy a decent amount of infra somewhere atleast 2.5k or more to get a cracked build and like @Hatebisaid if a lot of people do destroy these improvements it becomes Hard to self sustain yourself, realistically only option there is are beiging inactives and getting the acquired resources.

I just checked and apparently uBlock Origin just hid my rewarded ad button, so never mind on ads being disabled. I'd say that pirate turrets probably have an easier time of affording those nukes/missiles, given peacetime context and being able to hit whoever. It's a good deal more difficult as someone in a conventional war because of restricted targets and those being built up militarily (raiding isn't a feasible source of cash, in other words).

Small point, but 2M from baseball is generally not going to happen. It's technically 100% possible, though in my experience, baseball has never been more dead than it is right now. Having a buddy to run away games for you is mandatory if you want to hit 2M in a reasonable amount of time and even then you're going to be grinding for quite a while. Rewarded ads isn't that much of a blast either. Only factoring in the 3 minute break between ads and not the ads themselves, you're looking at an hour and 15 minutes to watch all 25. You can refresh the page when the timer's low to bring it down to 0, though in my experience the game will often punish you for that by bringing it back up all the way to 180 seconds. The best part? Sometimes they just don't work. There's a reason the page has a giant disclaimer, that whole system is held together with chewed gum and a dream. The stuff you listed is also well beyond the reach of the average player. Many alliances struggle to get their members to throw bombs from a stockpile of resources for all that long. Ask them to sit at their desk for over an hour, dual wielding baseball on the main monitor and rewarded ads on the second while making sure to never, ever miss a single day of logging in, less they break their 2M log in bonus. They'll have some choice words to tell ya. Do we really think that if someone is willing to put in that much effort into lobbing a few bombs a day they don't deserve to? Look at what the average farmer does, compare and contrast. Farmers log in like 2-3 times a week to buy uranium and make money hand over fist. Turrets are out here logging in every day, grinding more than an old school runescape player. At what point do you just gotta hand it to us and let us do our funny little acts of terrorism? How much grass do we have to avoid here? edit: Almost forgot to mention, rewarded ads have a habit of not finishing or playing properly if you don't actively have the tab open, at least in my experience. If you don't have a second monitor, you're going to be suffering.

Baseball isn't capped at $2mil either, it just drops off after that. In any case, there's enough out there to build and attack with things that cannot be countered other than a percentage chance if the nation has VDS/ID.

It's worth noting that ads are disabled at the moment (trying to watch the full 2m worth without a script would be obnoxious either way).

I've been running the numbers on it. You're not completely wrong, but that's the part of it that makes it so damn difficult. You'd have to pick a build for Missiles or Nukes. Can't do both (Obviously you can if you buy the RSS for the other). For example, Africa is a good one to have your nation if you want to build a self-sufficient nuke nation. You get $2mil daily bonus, $2mil baseball, $2mil paid ads, plus color bonus ($125k a tick if you're on Green, Pink, White, Maroon). Plus if you're raiding inactives at the same time. Financially, you're covered no matter which build you go with on the daily even while blockaded. The only counter if you go with a minimal build is if someone targets your RSS Production. If I ran the numbers correctly, you can do this at 16 cities reliably. If you're larger than that, it gets easier to build a self-sufficient turret nation. Way easier. Even at low Infra, you're not running enough of a deficit to stop building your daily nuke/missile. So hitting high Infra targets AND forcing them to invest enough time and finances into killing your Imps... Everybody keeps bringing up growth but no one tells me why growth is so important. Literally the only reason to grow is to fight conventional military against likesized players, but you can do that at every tier of the game. Sidenote: Retooling your nation for self-sufficient nuke/missiling also doubles for having resources while fighting conventionally.

You seem hung up on this "it's unbalanced" line. Personally, I think it's extremely well balanced, even if it's unintentional. Turreting is all about low yet sustained damage output. It's not like proper raiding where you go in, blow up their infra, clap their units, take their loot and salt their land so that nothing may ever grow again. Realistically you're blasting 2 cities and then getting beiged, 3 if you're using missiles. I think it's both fair and fitting that the counter play to a slow, methodical way of dealing damage is also slow and methodical. In response to a point Kastor made in that other thread, if you're trying to destroy every single improvement someone has, yeah it's going to take a while. That's not the kinda goal you should be setting and it's not what you need to accomplish to effectively counter a turret. All you need to do is to destroy enough of someone's stuff to either get them to leave you alone or reduce the amount of bombs they can support. Even an extremely optimized build will struggle to support 2 nukes and 3 missiles a day if you can knock off enough improvements. It seems like you only focus on the cost endured by the turreted party while rarely acknowledging what it costs the turret. If you're committing to the bit long term, you're hemorrhaging money. You're giving up months of time you could have spent farming/raiding and you're absolutely going to be falling behind growth wise. Opportunity costs aside, you're spending about 17M a day just on your bombs at current market prices. Taking in the bits of loot you bleed to counters, you'll often find yourself losing money while turreting. I say this as someone who built to 2.65k just to make my build as cracked as possible. The handful of other turrets you see running around are running far less efficient builds that will fold to even less damage. Don't forget every raider's best friend: burnout. It's a story as old as the game itself, a raider pops off for half a year to a year and then instantly burns out and quits the game. Turreting yields little visible progress like raiding does and really doesn't benefit the turret very much if at all. Imo this is one of the #1 reasons why fearmongering over a swarm of long-term nuke turrets is a bit silly. People are not built for that and will quickly burnout. Taking all that into account, this whole discourse feels a bit silly. I believe this play style does far more good for the health of the game than bad. Dedicating all of this time and effort into trying to get it nerfed when the reality of the situation shows it's really not that big of a deal makes it feel like some of y'all want a hard counter rather than actual healthy counter play, which we already have available.

Wasn't singularity mostly nuke turreting last war & still was mostly a curb stomb? Just let them keep doing damage. Letting people do damage, if you want to restrict that during peace when you want to just build up; has negative effects in wars worth fighting also.

You can't really keep me blockaded, unless you have people suicide. However before I blocked Salt and told him he could cry into thin air; last thing he said was you guys were going to keep attacking until at the end I pay you guys 2b. lmao, but he's continued spying stuff nonstop after. So I assume you guys remain aggressive and I should keep attacking. (I don't have strong feelings on it, other than something to overcome. You guys can let me know when you want to stop or something.) Each road block for me is just an obstacle to overcome, prove I can.

The fact my lone sentence (to you) warranted that big of a response is nuff said.

Also this made me chuckle.

Yes, you did DM me and we've had a pleasant brief conversation about it. It still didn't hit all the points, let alone this particular post of yours is missing some points as well. I'm not completely oblivious to countering "turrets" or anything of that sort, let alone some of the insane costs of doing it. The problem lies in how the design team is balancing the game. With the way how the balance is - countering current self-sufficient builds of turret nations is the most difficult in the game. Since 2015, I think it's actually the most difficult. Not difficult as in "Declare Raid, swap Tactician, etc." but as in the cost and dedication to it. It's absurd. Everything else has an effective counter. Turrets do not. It's a huge time and cost investment to do it, and arguably almost impossible despite all of your words here. Do I think an AA is running around turreting and terrorizing the game at the moment? No. Has it been done before in a war? Yes, not optimally but it's been done a few times. >I'd love to see you put your money where your mouth is

Congrats ~

Noot noot

Gib dosh. Nao.

When one side is morally destroyed, it's a curb stomp. If they can nuke at least, they can do some damage. Enemy isn't always wanting to be nice if the other side can't put up a fight.

Congratulations man. Sorry I don’t get on the forums as often as I should. I am touched to be included. I look forward to many more years of our friendship. Thank you. I am honored by your kind words.

I've been complemented by my former enemies in that game they learned about libertarianism because of me and will never forget it. Since I took over the Brown team with the libertarian party of cybernations, with the goal of just removing sanctions only. Not placing them. Creating a sanction free color. Which is the higher purpose these games can serve, if you bring attention to ideologies which bring people more towards freedom. Just a game, so don't need to avoid fighting. However spreading the ideas. As for this alliance, currently no real rules for the members or taxes. Also not trying to do any treaties or plans there. However ultimately will go with the flow of the Universe. Feel like maybe trying paperless for a while at least. (Maybe like the earlier Arrgh, when they more focused on raiding than nuking. Still willing to use that heavily as a deterrent, even if I don't have people pay me to nuke.)

Oh god, the pretend anarchist is back. For all the older folks who don't recognize him, this is Noctis. I am given to understand in Cybernations he went by the monicker "Methrage" if that's more befitting your memory. How wretched a fate that we should all have to suffer his existence again. I see he even fakes faith too now. Though to be fair to him, so don't most of its supposed adherents these days.

I agree, nuke turreting is fine. And I'm saying this as someone that's been on both sides of the issue. Counter-nuking and raid counters are good ways to counterplay against turrets, while not being so powerful as to invalidate a playstyle that is vitally important for the long-term health of the game. Without the possibility of turreting, there's no incentive for the winners of wars to stop holding down their rivals. That leaves open the possibility of IQ-style shenanigans, and I shouldn't need to elaborate on why we need to avoid that.

Now I'm not restricted from raiding you guys again. lol, but seeing that NAP among everyone makes me feel good I decided to create something else. Not with any strings. Maybe peace is good, but get bored in this game with it. I prefer shorter skirmishes, never fun trying to stomp out an enemy already dead until more dead.