I'm Just Going to Say It

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Lets not pretend Muslims of the past (and that goes for those today looking at their states) are these super tolerate and forward thinking people. Ask the Zoroastrians how well things continued when the "tolerant" Muslims stole their land. 

 

 

You really don't want to go down that road - we all know who the real experts are at stealing land - and it's certainly not the Muslims, but i will let it slide this time.

 

 

Islam did some steps right on a bunch of things I'll give that much. However this propaganda (oddly spoken I find mostly by sanctimonious ivory tower residents instead of Muslims themselves) of Islam being this shiny beacon of all that is good while Christianity were in cave men times is quite ridiculous. 

 

 

I wouldn't call that propaganda but a fairly accurate depiction of the reality of those times. That was the golden age of the Muslim world after all, while the west was going through the dark ages.

 

 

The Spanish example often cited was more a case of a foreign ruling force having to placate the natives, then a generous show of tolerance. Good politics more then good morality I'd say. 

 

 

Actually, despite how westerns now often fear monger about "Shariah Law" and how if it was implemented today all non Muslims will be killed etc (like how Christians burned alive all the non-Christians in the Spanish Inquisition that didn't flee)..... but the fact of the matter is that the Shariah Law was implemented in the heart of Europe for over 500 years in Islamic Spain, and in fact what it did was protect the Christians and Jews who were only asked to pay Jizya (non-Muslim tax) by law, and it was less than what the Muslims had to pay in Zakah (Alms tax only collected from Muslims). Further more, unlike Muslims they were exempt from compulsory military service, and Shariah Law allowed Christians and Jews to have their own separate courts that judged based on their own religious laws. You're right in the sense that it wasn't a random show of tolerance but rather the implementation of the Shariah Law.

[Hysteria]

I'm just going to say it 

 

Yall neguses need jesus 

[Doktor Avalanche]

Actually, despite how westerns now often fear monger about "Shariah Law" and how if it was implemented today all non Muslims will be killed etc (like how Christians burned alive all the non-Christians in the Spanish Inquisition that didn't flee)..... but the fact of the matter is that the Shariah Law was implemented in the heart of Europe for over 500 years in Islamic Spain, and in fact what it did was protect the Christians and Jews who were only asked to pay Jizya (non-Muslim tax) by law, and it was less than what the Muslims had to pay in Zakah (Alms tax only collected from Muslims). Further more, unlike Muslims they were exempt from compulsory military service, and Shariah Law allowed Christians and Jews to have their own separate courts that judged based on their own religious laws. You're right in the sense that it wasn't a random show of tolerance but rather the implementation of the Shariah Law.

Yes. But how are/were Christians treated in the Sharia courts when anything was thrown at them by a Muslim? What rights do Christians have in a Sharia court when on trial? What rights do Non-Muslim citizens hold in Muslim nations?

 

And, when discussing Christian Literature, have you ever read the Peshitta?

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Yes. But how are/were Christians treated in the Sharia courts when anything was thrown at them by a Muslim? What rights do Christians have in a Sharia court when on trial? What rights do Non-Muslim citizens hold in Muslim nations?

 

I can give you an example from the earliest time in Islamic history, in the case of Caliph (title for the leader of all Muslims) Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) Vs the Jew:

 

"In the incident Caliph  Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) once lost his armor. After some time he found his armor in a Jew’s possession and he instantly recognized it. Ali (ra) had to take the matter to the court because the Jew refused to return Ali (ra)’s armor. The judge, who was supposed to settle the dispute, was an experienced and honest man and he was well-known for settling cases regarding Islamic jurisprudence. When Ali (ra) was asked to produce witnesses to substantiate his claim he presented his servant and his two sons. The judge refused to accept the testimony of Ali (ra)’s two sons. So due to lack of enough evidence the verdict was passed in favor of the Jew and the armor was handed over to him. The Jew was astonished and said that the Amir-ul-Momineen (the Commander of the Believers) of the Muslims had brought him to a court of a judge who was appointed by the Caliph himself. Despite this the judge passed a verdict against the Caliph and the Caliph accepted his verdict without any resistance. The Jew accepted the truth that the armor belonged to the Caliph. The Jew had stolen it when he found it somewhere. Not only did he return the armor to Ali (ra) but he also embraced Islam by saying, ‘I testify that there is no God except Allah and Mohammad is His Messenger’. Ali (ra) gifted his armor and his horse to the Jew."

 

Regarding your last point, I can't speak for the so called "Muslim nations" that exist today, because personally i don't believe any of the leaders of these nations to be Muslim despite what they claim. However, it's undisputed that the earlier Muslim Caliphates that existed and their leaders faithfully followed the precepts of their religion, and the classical scholars of Islam have detailed the rights of the Muslims towards the dhimmi (non Muslim living in Muslim lands). The famous Maliki jurist, Shaha al-Deen al-Qarafi states:

 

"The covenant of protection imposes upon us certain obligations toward the ahl al-dhimmah (non Muslims in Muslim lands). They are our neighbours, under our shelter and protection upon the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam. Whoever violates these obligations against any one of them by so much as an abusive word, by slandering his reputation, or by doing him some injury or assisting in it, has breached the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam."

 

And, when discussing Christian Literature, have you ever read the Peshitta?

 

I can't read Syriac.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Ibrahim

[Doktor Avalanche]

I can give you an example from the earliest time in Islamic history, in the case of Caliph (title for the leader of all Muslims) Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) Vs the Jew:

 

"In the incident Caliph  Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) once lost his armor. After some time he found his armor in a Jew’s possession and he instantly recognized it. Ali (ra) had to take the matter to the court because the Jew refused to return Ali (ra)’s armor. The judge, who was supposed to settle the dispute, was an experienced and honest man and he was well-known for settling cases regarding Islamic jurisprudence. When Ali (ra) was asked to produce witnesses to substantiate his claim he presented his servant and his two sons. The judge refused to accept the testimony of Ali (ra)’s two sons. So due to lack of enough evidence the verdict was passed in favor of the Jew and the armor was handed over to him. The Jew was astonished and said that the Amir-ul-Momineen (the Commander of the Believers) of the Muslims had brought him to a court of a judge who was appointed by the Caliph himself. Despite this the judge passed a verdict against the Caliph and the Caliph accepted his verdict without any resistance. The Jew accepted the truth that the armor belonged to the Caliph. The Jew had stolen it when he found it somewhere. Not only did he return the armor to Ali (ra) but he also embraced Islam by saying, ‘I testify that there is no God except Allah and Mohammad is His Messenger’. Ali (ra) gifted his armor and his horse to the Jew."

 

Regarding your last point, I can't speak for the so called "Muslim nations" that exist today, because personally i don't believe any of the leaders of these nations to be Muslim despite what they claim. However, it's undisputed that the earlier Muslim Caliphates that existed and their leaders faithfully followed the precepts of their religion, and the classical scholars of Islam have detailed the rights of the Muslims towards the dhimmi (non Muslim living in Muslim lands). The famous Maliki jurist, Shaha al-Deen al-Qarafi states:

 

"The covenant of protection imposes upon us certain obligations toward the ahl al-dhimmah (non Muslims in Muslim lands). They are our neighbours, under our shelter and protection upon the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam. Whoever violates these obligations against any one of them by so much as an abusive word, by slandering his reputation, or by doing him some injury or assisting in it, has breached the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam."

 

 

I can't read Syriac.

Thank you for your responses.

[Donald Sterling]

Being a representative of the JIDF I would like to say that everyone who has said something bad about our homeland will be immediately detained no questions asked.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Donald Sterling

[Stujenske]

What about the Europeans who have raped and pillaged in every continent, including their own and continue to do so with so-called "guided bombs"?