Is Crimea Legally Russian or Ukrainian Land?

[Buorhann]

Invading Crimea had nothing to do with reforming the USSR. Russia attacked because Ukraine was planning on joining the EU, and the EU was going to help them set up a natural gas extraction operation. Ukrainean gas is a huge threat to the Russian monopoly on gas in Europe. They wanted to make sure Ukraine has no chance to get a system in place and start cutting in on the market.

 

 

Explain Russia's aggression on Georgia then.

[elsuper]

Explain Russia's aggression on Georgia then.

 

Prevent/control pipeline routes from the Caspian to the Black Sea?

[Vincent]

People of Crimea voted to be part of Russia didn't they, Crimea historically is part of Russia, only given to Ukraine when both of them are in Soviet Union...and since Crimeans now wanted to return to their root...why cant they? because EU doesn't want them to or bcos Uncle Sam wont allow it?

[WISD0MTREE]

because EU doesn't want them to or bcos Uncle Sam wont allow it?

Both. It will allow Russia to get a port that can operate year round. 

[Aesir]

Not only does it do that it allows Russia's Black Sea Fleet to operate in friendly territory.  If Ukraine had joined NATO (an anti-Russia alliance period, no matter how you spin it its sole purpose was to fight the USSR) then Russia's Black Sea Fleet would be stranded in potentially hostile territory.  No sane country would allow for their only military forces capable of defending a region become trapped by people who quite clearly don't like you.  Crimea is Russian Territory as long as Russia wills it.  Nothing short of a full NATO invasion of Russia will get it back and if that does happen I believe other nations (like say China) would join in on Russia's side because if Russia falls then China's own situation become precarious.

[elsuper]

Nothing short of a full NATO invasion of Russia will get it back and if that does happen I believe other nations (like say China) would join in on Russia's side because if Russia falls then China's own situation become precarious.

 

I would be absolutely astonished if NATO attempted a military liberation of Crimea.

[Big Brother]

They would never, that would escalate way too much much way too quickly. Better to fight a proxy war.

[MMike]

And in the end of the day, it's the Russian flag on top of the town hall

[Nobeard]

 

Sure, the Russians have made a ruckus in instances like Abkhazia, South Ossetia and most recently the Donbass, but these territories are tiny and almost inconsequential compared to the gains NATO and the EU have made, and in all these instances Russia's reaction was triggered by NATO and or the EU trying to expand further. They have not been acting, they have been reacting, and I really wouldn't expect them to react differently from the way they have. If Russia is trying to expand, it's only because NATO and EU are trying expand.

Russia is the one with the problem in that it continuously thinks literally everything that happens in the world happens to antagonize Russia.

 

It was on a path to join NATO up until Putin set the country years backwards for his own political gains.

[Mutant]

Russia is the one with the problem in that it continuously thinks literally everything that happens in the world happens to antagonize Russia.

 

It was on a path to join NATO up until Putin set the country years backwards for his own political gains.

Hahahahaha, no.

[Aesir]

Russia is the one with the problem in that it continuously thinks literally everything that happens in the world happens to antagonize Russia.

 

It was on a path to join NATO up until Putin set the country years backwards for his own political gains.

Russia join NATO? Not in its wildest dreams. NATO exists to basically say "Bad Russia" whenever Russia sneezes. NATO is an outdated Cold War leftover that makes the US feel good about itself. Russia has every right not to like the US and NATO as it is not secret NATO and the US don't like Russia, because it is Russia .

[Big Brother]

Russia is the one with the problem in that it continuously thinks literally everything that happens in the world happens to antagonize Russia.

 

It was on a path to join NATO up until Putin set the country years backwards for his own political gains.

 

No, both sides have a definite problem. It's not fair, nor accurate to say that Russia is the only nation with a problem, and that the West have been infallible in their actions, this is simply not true. The populations of the countries on both sides have been polarized against each other, ever since the advent of the Bolshevik Revolution and Russian Civil War, and even further so at the beginning and during the Cold War. Westerners have been taught to consider the Russians to be enemies, and they have been taught the same about the West.

 

As for Russia joining NATO, I think you underestimate how arduous this process would be. All Wikipedia has to say on it is:

 

In April 2009, the Polish Foreign Minister, Radosław Sikorski, suggested including Russia in NATO.[29] In March 2010 this suggestion was repeated in an open letter co-written by German defense experts General Klaus Naumann, Frank Elbe, Ulrich Weisser, and former German Defense Minister Volker Rühe. In the letter it was suggested that Russia was needed in the wake of an emerging multi-polar world in order for NATO to counterbalance emerging Asian powers.[30]

 

However current Russian leadership has made it clear that Russia does not plan to join the alliance, preferring to keep cooperation on a lower level now. The Russian envoy to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, is quoted as saying "Great powers don't join coalitions, they create coalitions. Russia considers itself a great power," although he said that Russia did not rule out membership at some point in the future.[13] In March 2000 president Vladimir Putin, in interview to British television said Russia could once join NATO.[31]

 

On 6 June 2011, NATO and Russia participated in their first ever joint fighter jet exercise, dubbed "Vigilant Skies 2011". Since the Cold War, this is only the second joint military venture between the alliance and Russia, with the first being a joint submarine exercise which begun on 30 May 2011.[32]

 

In April 2012 there were some protests in Russia over their country's involvement with NATO, mostly made up of Ultranationalist and Pro Leftist groups.[33]

 

Reuters reported in February 2014 that Russia and NATO were drawing up plans to jointly guard the MV Cape Ray as it is used to dismantle Syrian chemical weapons.

 

 

Read these and then tell me if you still believe they were anywhere close to membership:

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/07/russia_and_nato

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/opinion/7545783/Will-Russia-join-Nato.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/19/why-nato-has-not-permitted-russia-to-join/

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/open-letter-it-s-time-to-invite-russia-to-join-nato-a-682287.html

http://www.eu-russiacentre.org/our-publications/column/why-can-russia-not-join-nato.html

http://en.interaffairs.ru/events/188-should-russia-seek-to-join-nato.html

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/66217/charles-a-kupchan/natos-final-frontier

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/5-reasons-why-russia-will-never-join-nato/423840.html

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article.php?id=425912

 

I believe Russian membership in NATO would be a great thing, but there's clearly no consensus on this in the West, nor in Russia, they are not "on the path" to membership, and they never were. If you have any information or sources that back up your claim, about Russia taking definite steps towards joining NATO, or NATO taking definite steps to letting Russia join, I would actually be really interested in reading them.

 

As for Putin "setting the country years backwards for his own political gains", I'm just going to quote one of my earlier posts:

 

KISSINGER. … But if the West is honest with itself, it has to admit that there were mistakes on its side. The annexation of Crimea was not a move toward global conquest. It was not Hitler moving into Czechoslovakia.

SPIEGEL. What was it then?

KISSINGER. One has to ask oneself this question: Putin spent tens of billions of dollars on the Winter Olympics in Sochi. The theme of the Olympics was that Russia is a progressive state tied to the West through its culture and, therefore, it presumably wants to be part of it. So it doesn’t make any sense that a week after the close of the Olympics, Putin would take Crimea and start a war over Ukraine. So one has to ask oneself, Why did it happen?

SPIEGEL. What you’re saying is that the West has at least a kind of responsibility for the escalation?

KISSINGER. Yes, I am saying that. Europe and America did not understand the impact of these events, starting with the negotiations about Ukraine’s economic relations with the European Union and culminating in the demonstrations in Kiev. All these, and their impact, should have been the subject of a dialogue with Russia. This does not mean the Russian response was appropriate.

 

It doesn't make sense.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Big Brother

[Nobeard]

All of those articles are recent.

 

Of course Russia joining NATO sounds ludicrous if one thinks of it in today's context. I was referring to the mid 90s before Putin and before the Russian financial crisis, not today.

[fistofdoom]

lets just agree everyone sucks for numerous reasons, and then go watch cat videos on youtube

[Big Brother]

All of those articles are recent.

 

Of course Russia joining NATO sounds ludicrous if one thinks of it in today's context. I was referring to the mid 90s before Putin and before the Russian financial crisis, not today.

 

That depends on how you define recent.

 

Still, I would really like to see any information you might have about this/where you got that notion from. It's not very convincing otherwise.

[Pwnius Scrubius]

historically crimea belonged to ukraine, and the russians when they were expanding conquered it sometime during the dark ages and maybe even earlier and i believe this was before the tsars or possible during the early stages or tsarism but after they took crimea, crimea remained in russian hands for nearly 500 years more or less.. And when the USSR granted Ukraine independence they gave ukraine crimea as good faith or as insurance which ever you prefer.

 

But historically crimea is ukraine but as of now it is russian. Plus the only reason why russia quickly took crimea and not the rest of eastern ukraine which is filled with pro-russians is because crimea houses russias black sea fleet.

You mean Ukraine had Crimea before the days of the USSR?

[Pwnius Scrubius]

Explain Russia's aggression on Georgia then.

Officially, it was to liberate South Ossetia. They also claimed Russian Peacekeepers died, I think.

[Ogaden]

LOL "Legally"

 

Legally speaking some would argue China belongs to Taiwan, Kosovo belongs to Serbia, and Crimea belongs to the Ottoman Empire.

 

That and a dollar will get you a pack of gum.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Ogaden

[Ogaden]

There's only one law in international relations and that's the law of the jungle.  The only reason countries stick to their agreements is there is just as much harm that can happen to themselves if other countries decide to ignore their own agreements too.

 

International law is whatever the nations with nukes decide that it is.