Moderation points appeal

[Winston Gray]

So I just got a bulletin taken down for homophobia and transphobia, but as always, there was no explanation behind why. The bulletin I wrote was called “My views on LGBTQ ideology.” In that bulletin, I did not demonstrate any kind of hate or prejudice, but rather expressed my opinion as a conservative Christian. However, you moderators found this intolerable and decided to take it down and give my moderation points. I am requesting an explanation as to the rationale behind this decision.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Winston Gray

[Denison]

Moderation in PNW is notoriously biased, I have experienced it plenty first hand. I didn't see your bulletin but I honestly have to believe you just based on my own experiences. If you want a worse set of mods, watch out for the forum mods. They're about 10x more biased and crazed than game mods. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Denison
tmw no discussion and can't even delete my own post, classic PNW moment

[Alex]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:27 AM, Winston Gray said:

So I just got a bulletin taken down for homophobia and transphobia, but as always, there was no explanation behind why. The bulletin I wrote was called “My views on LGBTQ ideology.” In that bulletin, I did not demonstrate any kind of hate or prejudice, but rather expressed my opinion as a conservative Christian. However, you moderators found this intolerable and decided to take it down and give my moderation points. I am requesting an explanation as to the rationale behind this decision.

I didn't issue the warning, and the warning should have had more specific detail.

However, I believe that your bulletin could have and probably did make some LGTBQ+ players (IRL) uncomfortable, and there's really no reason that you needed to write that. It was more of a personal opinion than nation roleplay. This is an online game where you don't have to see or know what anyone's real-life is like, and so your bulletin which was potentially harmful and had no real relation to the game was taken down.

[Winston Gray]

14 hours ago, Alex said:

I didn't issue the warning, and the warning should have had more specific detail.

However, I believe that your bulletin could have and probably did make some LGTBQ+ players (IRL) uncomfortable, and there's really no reason that you needed to write that. It was more of a personal opinion than nation roleplay. This is an online game where you don't have to see or know what anyone's real-life is like, and so your bulletin which was potentially harmful and had no real relation to the game was taken down.

1. Of course it was going to make people uncomfortable. Somebody is bound to feel uncomfortable by everyone’s opinions. That is not grounds to take it down. It needs to show clear hatred and/or prejudice to be taken down; it can’t just offend a few people. Nowhere in the game rules does it say that you can’t offend people.

2. Nothing I said demonstrated clear hatred or prejudice. Statements like a) Marriage is a sacred union between one man and one woman, b) simply saying you’re a woman doesn’t make you a woman, or c) we shouldn’t be teaching gender ideology to five year old kids do not constitute hatred or prejudice, which is what is against the rules.

3. It’s a personal opinion, so what? Again, I didn’t break any rules by expressing my opinion, as there is no rule against doing so.

So please, from whoever did do this, an explanation please? And Alex, I am appealing me getting moderation points on the grounds of hate and prejudice against LGBTQ people, which is what you define as homophobia and transphobia. I do not think that anything I said actually constituted this. You can’t ban me for offending people or expressing personal opinions, because this is not against the game rules. I’d like to know how my opinion warranted being banned, because so far, there has been no legitimate explanation.

[Alex]

Here is the rule:

Quote

2. Racism, Sexism, Homophobia, and Transphobia

Moderation Points Guideline: 20-50
Expiration: 1 Year

1. Racism
   Having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another.
   Example: Calling another player a racial slur or claiming racial superiority over another player or group of people.

2. Sexism
   Having or showing the belief that a particular gender is superior to another.

3. Homophobia
   Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against of homosexual people.

4. Transphobia
   Having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

https://politicsandwar.com/rules/

I would say that your post qualifies at a minimum of "showing a dislike of homosexual people" which is not allowed.

[Majima Goro]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

"showing a dislike of homosexual people"

I know this is a no-discussion forum but I want a clarification of this rule. Am I to believe that showing a dislike for a certain group of people, even if it is personal and in no way being enforced by me on others, a violation of rules. For example, if I say I am not very comfortable around group X or that I do not support group Y, would that be consider as rule-breaking? I truly believe some of the rules are very vaguely defined and the moderators use their own discretion and bias when deciding cases. At times, this leads to people inadvertently breaking rules and getting banned when the rule was never defined in the first place. The greater reason a more codified rule system is needed is because people come from different walks of life and regions with different belief systems. While I am not against moral policing enforced by the liberal west, at least I would like to know the rules I shouldn't break before being banned because my regions' traditions didn't match the western values.

[Alex]

Just now, Majima Goro said:

I know this is a no-discussion forum but I want a clarification of this rule. Am I to believe that showing a dislike for a certain group of people, even if it is personal and in no way being enforced by me on others, a violation of rules. For example, if I say I am not very comfortable around group X or that I do not support group Y, would that be consider as rule-breaking? I truly believe some of the rules are very vaguely defined and the moderators use their own discretion and bias when deciding cases. At times, this leads to people inadvertently breaking rules and getting banned when the rule was never defined in the first place. The greater reason a more codified rule system is needed is because people come from different walks of life and regions with different belief systems. While I am not against moral policing enforced by the liberal west, at least I would like to know the rules I shouldn't break before being banned because my regions' traditions didn't match the western values.

Well, you are correct that it is all context dependent. But you're playing an online game an if you're expressing hateful ideologies towards others, then yeah that's generally going to be against the rules. There's no reason for it here - you don't have to see or know about what anyone else is like IRL anyway, it's a nation simulation game.

[Mayor]

Just now, Alex said:

Well, you are correct that it is all context dependent. But you're playing an online game an if you're expressing hateful ideologies towards others, then yeah that's generally going to be against the rules. There's no reason for it here - you don't have to see or know about what anyone else is like IRL anyway, it's a nation simulation game.

While I agree that you should not express hateful ideologies towards others, as you say, it is a nation simulation game so shouldn't some people be able to roleplay conservative Christian nations? He said he made a bulletin so I would assume Winston Gray was talking about policies in his own nation and not harassing others.

[Slavicia123]

To second Majima’s post, the idea of enforcing the western liberal interpretations of rules that are vague, generic and left for interpretation for a biased staff without any kind of regard for those that do not live in the same regional echo chamber in its own right a form of racism that needs to be addressed. Expressing one’s views even if they may not  like it, so long as there is some semblance of actually having manners or tact then it should be fine, as far as concerned saying what one believes as a conservative Christian is not something to be ostracized for as opposed to someone actually saying a homophonic slur.

[Majima Goro]

Just now, Alex said:

Well, you are correct that it is all context dependent. But you're playing an online game an if you're expressing hateful ideologies towards others, then yeah that's generally going to be against the rules. There's no reason for it here - you don't have to see or know about what anyone else is like IRL anyway, it's a nation simulation game.

Expressing hateful ideologies and propagating hateful ideologies are a different thing though. In one, you are just telling why you hate a certain group while the latter is about you trying to get others to follow along with your ideologies and hate certain groups. My question really is: Is having prejudices against certain communities and expressing them against the rules? We will a hundred percent assume the person is just telling they don't like a certain community and believe the right way for things to be done is some other way while in no way harassing members of that community or trying to turn others to harassing them. 

As an example(please treat this as an example only), if I were to say I don't agree with the lifestyle of gay people and believe homosexuality to be unnatural, is this against the rules? I am not trying to turn anyone away from living their life as homosexuals but I also refuse to affirm to their lifestyles basically in this statement. 

I truly believe being able to express opinions is a human right as long as said person is not actively trying to transform others' opinions through coercion and harassment.

[Winston Gray]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Here is the rule:

https://politicsandwar.com/rules/

I would say that your post qualifies at a minimum of "showing a dislike of homosexual people" which is not allowed.

No it doesn’t. Not once do I express any kind of dislike for gay people. Please point to one thing I said which actually constitutes homophobia.

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Well, you are correct that it is all context dependent. But you're playing an online game an if you're expressing hateful ideologies towards others, then yeah that's generally going to be against the rules. There's no reason for it here - you don't have to see or know about what anyone else is like IRL anyway, it's a nation simulation game.

Are Catholicism or conservatism hateful ideologies? That’s all I was expressing.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Winston Gray

[Nyx]

21 hours ago, Mayor said:

While I agree that you should not express hateful ideologies towards others, as you say, it is a nation simulation game so shouldn't some people be able to roleplay conservative Christian nations? He said he made a bulletin so I would assume Winston Gray was talking about policies in his own nation and not harassing others.

Having read the bulletin in question, I can confirm that it was an out-of-character post that certainly showed prejudice against the LGBTQ+ community.

[Winston Gray]

2 hours ago, Nyx said:

Having read the bulletin in question, I can confirm that it was an out-of-character post that certainly showed prejudice against the LGBTQ+ community.

Please provide an example of this.

[Nyx]

1 hour ago, Winston Gray said:

Please provide an example of this.

I can't get quotes from the bulletin since it seems to have been removed. However, I do clearly recall that the points you brought up were blatantly anti-LGBTQ+, claiming it was a mental illness and similarly clear homophobic/transphobic arguments.

[Winston Gray]

15 hours ago, Nyx said:

I can't get quotes from the bulletin since it seems to have been removed. However, I do clearly recall that the points you brought up were blatantly anti-LGBTQ+, claiming it was a mental illness and similarly clear homophobic/transphobic arguments.

Saying that attraction to someone of the same sex, or wanting to be the opposite sex are mental illnesses, that demonstrates prejudice?

[Nyx]

1 hour ago, Winston Gray said:

Saying that attraction to someone of the same sex, or wanting to be the opposite sex are mental illnesses, that demonstrates prejudice?

Yes, it most certainly does. It demonstrates that you believe there is something wrong with gay and trans people, or that it's something that needs to be cured, therefore clearly showing prejudice against them.

[Winston Gray]

16 minutes ago, Nyx said:

Yes, it most certainly does. It demonstrates that you believe there is something wrong with gay and trans people, or that it's something that needs to be cured, therefore clearly showing prejudice against them.

So me believing that something is wrong with someone means that I have prejudice against them?