You should be very, very scared

[Hereno]

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/obama-commitment-eastern-europe-russia-nato/379581/

 

That all sent a message, but only indirectly. The direct message came on Wednesday, in Tallinn, Estonia, in the sharpest language any U.S. president has used toward Russia since Ronald Reagan upbraided the Evil Empire. One by one, President Obama repudiated the lies Vladimir Putin has told about Ukraine: that the Ukrainians somehow provoked the invasion, that they are Nazis, that their freely elected government is somehow illegal. He rejected Russia’s claim that it has some sphere of influence in Ukraine, some right of veto over Ukrainian constitutional arrangements. And he forcefully assured Estonians—and all NATO’s new allies—that waging war on them meant waging war on the United States. “[T]he defense of Tallinn and Riga and Vilnius is just as important as the defense of Berlin and Paris and London," Obama said. "Article 5 is crystal clear. An attack on one is an attack on all. So if, in such a moment, you ever ask again, who'll come to help, you'll know the answer: the NATO alliance, including the armed forces of the United States of America, right here, present, now."

 

This is the ultimate commitment, given by the ultimate authority, in the very place where the commitment would be tested—and would have to be honored. There’s no turning back from that. Today, for the first time perhaps, Eastern Europeans have reason to believe it. And Vladimir Putin? His depredations have brought about the very result he claimed most to fear: a reanimated NATO rededicated to the defense of all its members, new and old, West and East, backed by the ultimate commitment of the United States.

 

In Tallinn, President Obama gave the most important speech about European security—and issued the most important pledge—of the post-Cold War era.

[Vincent]

we need to teach the Russians a lesson, apparently they haven't learn the proper way to behave in the civilised manner that human race expects from each and everyone today. Russians thinks too highly of themselves and their own interest and will do anything at all cost. in 1988 they short down a south Korean liner and 2014, 26 years later they behave exactly the same old way. Shooting down MH 17 over the Ukrainian border is not acceptable no matter what is their excuse. No one shoots a civilian plane whatever the reason maybe. so I think is about time NATO stop talking and show so action for once. Confront Russia and if it leads to nuclear exchange , so be it....we should stop pleasing the Moscow. feed them to the cow instead.

[Ayayay]

I seriously doubt Russia has any intention of invading Estonia, Latvia, or any other NATO country. Russia isn't going to mount an overt invasion anywhere under NATO protection, so this commitment won't have to be backed up. Just tough words to save face after the "We don't have a strategy for ISIL" comment.

Edited September 4, 2014 by underlordgc

[Alex]

A historic speech, no doubt.

 

I'm glad to see that we are not attempting any sort of "appeasement" policy towards Putin and what appears to be his thirst to recreate an empire.

 

EDIT: Not related to Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania but about Ukraine:

 

Ukraine needs to stop being influenced by Ukraine. I think it's more than clear the people there wish to be members of the EU and NATO, and they should be allowed that sovereignty.

[Ayayay]

-snip-

It only applies to NATO allies, not Ukraine. Although that much isn't surprising and Russia hasn't and won't attempt any attack on a NATO nation because they know NATO would have no choice but to respond in force.

[Alex]

It only applies to NATO allies, not Ukraine. Although that much isn't surprising and Russia hasn't and won't attempt any attack on a NATO nation because they know NATO would have no choice but to respond in force.

 

I'm aware, that's why I said that Ukraine needs to join EU/NATO. The latter part of my post about Ukraine was more in response to vincentsum8's post.

[Demon]

Shooting down MH 17 over the Ukrainian border is not acceptable no matter what is their excuse.

 

 

Blame the Ukraine - they did it

 

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-causes-of-the-mh17-crash-are-classified-ukraine-netherlands-australia-belgium-signed-a-non-disclosure-agreement/5397194

 

The Causes of the MH17 Crash are “Classifiedâ€. Ukraine, Netherlands, Australia, Belgium Signed a “Non-disclosure Agreementâ€

 

 

Guess why?

 

 

P.S. Did you know that US shot down civilian liner too?

Edited September 4, 2014 by Demon

[Demon]

. I think it's more than clear the people there wish to be members of the EU and NATO, and they should be allowed that sovereignty.

 

 

not it is not clear, and thats why civil war was started

[Vincent]

Blame Ukraine , they did it. Do you have any prove is done by the Ukrainians ? The site the plane went down is under the pro Russian rebels, the BUK missiles system suspected of downing the liner was supplied by the Russians ( or seize by the rebels from the Ukrainian airbase)

Yet blame Ukraine?

 

US downed an civilian liner? well first of all I am giving a guess which incident you are referring to. The shooting down of the Iranian liner over the Persian gulf during the gulf war? Well if you are talking about that , then what I think is , first of all why is that plane flying over the combat zone? Everyone who is not a moron knew the Persian gulf airspace should be avoided at that time. and worse ! why was that liner flying in an hostile manner toward to US fleet in the Persian Gulf when the Iran and Iraq war is at its height?

and 2ndly that liner deserved to be down because it belongs to a rogue state, a state that support terrorist activity ( and for that matter IRan is still a rogue state today just like North Korea), so blame the Iranians for that.

as for Russian, 1988 downing a south Korean liner over an area disputed by Russian and China. and 2014 infringe on Ukrainian soil and shoot down MH370 using BUK. the Russian really sucks....they never learn to be civilised do they?

[Hereno]

Russia is currently at war with the Ukraine, on paper. If the Ukraine joins NATO, and NATO has vowed to defend its eastern European members, then...

[Demon]

It fell on Rebels ground because it was shot down above Ukrainan ground, airplanes are flying at highspeed you know?

 

There was no combat zone, rather international air corridor, yet US blew up civilians.

 

2nd - You justify killing innocent civilians, then i guess it is OK to repeat 9/11 in USA, or maybe even in your country, you welcome.

 

Korean liner simple intruded Soviet territory, there was no disputed area, even if it was Korea and China are 2 different countries and so Korea intruded both Soviet and China land as you claim.

 

 

So why doesnt TOWER-MH17 recording didnt published neither BlackBoxes? Because The West covers their N A Z I puppet in Ukraine

Russia is currently at war with the Ukraine, on paper. If the Ukraine joins NATO, and NATO has vowed to defend its eastern European members, then...

 

No it wasn't

Edited September 4, 2014 by Demon

[Vincent]

if is nothing to do with Russian and the pro Russian rebels then why did the rebels prevented access to the area? you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure it is so that the Russians , KGB and etc could clean up the area of the evidence that this was the work of the Russian army. downing civilian liners has become sort of trade mark of the Russians it seems.

 

intrude? if it intrude china , shouldn't it be the Chinese be the one shooting that liner down? what does it got to do with the Russians then? unless you are saying the Chinese are merely a puppet of the Russians?

 

As for the US incident, you admitted that it was an international corridor. and if not mistaken United Nations has declared that area as a no fly zone to protect the shipping line on the waters below it. and the Iranian liner has no business being there and hence it is justified being shot down as US is mandated by UN resolution to enforce a no fly zone over that corridor.

Edited September 4, 2014 by vincentsum8

[Demon]

Rebels did granted acces to the area, OSCE was there until Ukraine start shell them. Rebels find and return BlackBoxes. KGB wasnt exist

 

 

They intrude Soviet land not china, google before you post

 

 

UN never declared that area as no-fiy zone - has no authority, neither UN issue a mandate to kill civilians. It was international air-corridor, and USA even didnt know that it was Iranian liner, they even didnt know that it was liner, they sh1t on their pants and shoot. So all of your arguments are wrong

Edited September 4, 2014 by Demon

[Vincent]

Rebels find, tampered and forced to return , hoping that the  rest of the world wont notice such a stupid trick

Edited September 4, 2014 by vincentsum8

[Demon]

Malaisia delegation stated that they are untampered and in relative good shape. Maybe you just silly troll?

Edited September 4, 2014 by Demon

[Vincent]

First of all , Malaysians are well known worldwide as corrupted people....in terms of corruption, I say the rank the first in the world. so whatever the delegation says basically has no value whatsoever, they could be bribe to  say anything you wanted them to as long as the Dollars are there. So stop telling us about what the Malaysians delegation said.

 

Why didn't u report that the PM of Malaysia also stressed that the rebels should not deny the investigators access to that area? if the rebels have allowed free access there. would he need to make such comment?

 

BTW I am a Malaysian so I know more than u about what Malaysians are. and the delegation sent to check the blackbox are technically morons morons who know nothing except to read the script given to them in front of the cameras. so stop misleading the rest using what  the Malaysian delegation ( or rather Malaysian paid delegation ) has to say. and a lot of Malaysian government servants are either so corrupted or stupid ( choose one or perhaps both), that if the price is right, even if u wanted them to say Their dad is a women, they will.

 

And lastly If u have the chance to come here and talk to the normal Malaysians not working with the government and listen to their view, 99% of them said the plane was shot down by the either the Russian or the pro Russian rebels.

Edited September 4, 2014 by vincentsum8

[Demon]

OK. Rebels paid Malaisia. Cool story bro

 

 

Rebels did provide access and OSCE mission was there until UKRAINE START SHELL 'EM. The guilty party try to cover their crime

 

 

They are morons ok, perhaps they should send you, cuz you have all answers before investigation was done

[Vincent]

judging the way you talk, I do not for a second  doubt you are from Russia or some pro Russian country.

 

you call work done based on tampered evidence , and limited access to the site an investigation? well for me is nothing more than a stupid drama staged by Russians to avoid sanctions by United nation for shooting down a liner in a neighbouring country

 

and BTW I am sure you are aware even now Russians are actively violating the Sovereignty of Ukraine , crossing the borders and mounting illegal invasion on Territory of Ukraine ...so it is time NATO take charge and beat these barbarian horde back

Edited September 4, 2014 by vincentsum8

[Demon]

Evidence is not tampered. access to side was limited by Ukraine. UN cannot sanction Russia

 

There was no russian invasion to Ukraine, there is a civil war in Ukraine. If it was Russian invasion then Ukraine will be defeated in 10 days they don't have an army

[Hereno]

No it wasn't

http://rt.com/op-edge/184830-ukraine-russia-conflict-war-ceasefire/

 

Even the state newspaper of Russia admits that Ukraine is trying to play this as a war. Given that in the context of the Obama speech, what do you think it is that they're trying to say there? They're essentially threatening Russia with war, and are going to be talking about joining NATO shortly. This is the closest the US has come to a war with Russia since before the end of the Cold War. It is serious business.

[Demon]

EU can leave NATO in any time they want - case solved.

[Jerry LeRow]

Well, Ukraine is already in a NATO partnership and I hope they'll join them one day (although now, as they're semi-official in a war, they aren't allowed to join).

 

Russia's imperialistic behaviour somehow always has the same pattern... infiltrate a region, spread rumours and criminals among it and after a while "liberate" it. Yes, the American Empire is also imperialistic, but it only builds military bases around the world and doesn't (anymore ) undermine democracies like the russians.

 

But let's keep in mind the americans, especially the CIA, have a long history of destabilizing democracies and supporting autocrats, they're not a peace dove either...

 

Russia is a dying power, slowly running out of money imo (i mean why did they have to do the undervalued gas deal with the chinese), low standards of living (it's still a 2nd-class country) and no prosperous outlook. Decades of stalinism and communism have left deep scars (and brain damages) and the "world power" is the only thing that russia had left.

 

I also have to say putin is now in a gridlock... more or less. While so many countries ask for his retreat, don't you see that if he'd do it he'd be dumped as coward or !@#$ by his russian nationalists? Best way to end the conflict would be to simply give him something he can declare as success, perhaps a stronger federalization of ukraine or neutrality of ukraine. You gotta give him something that allows him to keep his face, otherwise he'll be too scared to retreat.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Jerry LeRow

[Vincent]

The real thing is Russians realised they are becoming more and more isolated by the day. The north Korean don't rely on them anymore so kim dynasty doesn't really need to give a damn on  Russian command. Cuba is slowly trying to jump ship to the Western side. China don't agree with Russian and is not like the Chinese like those Russian anyway. their traditional arm market India is abandoning them and opting for western weaponary, their Warsaw pact is buried deeply under the grave....so no doubt Russian is a dying giant. and what they are doing in Ukraine is simply. since I am dying , i'll drag you to the grave with me....and this is what NATO and the rest of the world cannot allow. We cant just standby and watch Moscow bully kiev. Someday somewhere someone has to come out and say to the bloody Russian, Enough is Enough .

Edited September 4, 2014 by vincentsum8

[Demon]

Ukraine collapses before x-mas

[Vincent]

is a disaster to mankind and democracy if it does.