Voting

[Hereno]

but we do have a democrat in office and non of that has happened yet, except the universal health care which if you dont apply for is a fine of like 1500 bucks.

 

/me golf claps

 

Yeah man, I was being sarcastic.

[Sailor Jerry]

So how would all those people come to our shores? Unless they swim themselves, they'd need some sort of photo ID to fly, or board a ship and then would need a passport to enter the country any.....unless you are of the mind to see screw it .....their should be no passports either.

 

As too the taxes thing. I admit, I make a very comfortable living.....with my navy retirement and my current job and my wife works as well. What pisses me off more then anything, is my average pay is taxed at about/around 25% or so. Every spring, we get a bonus based on how we did the previous year. Also during this time, we are usually doing what we call "outage", its an extended, intensive maintenance period when our turbines and generators are down anywhere from 1-6 weeks (depending on the scope of work being done) for each unit and my site has 2. During these weeks, we work 7 days at 10-12 hours/day. With all being said, I bust my butt, work hard, to make my money. During our last outage, we worked 18 straight 12 hour days, during which time we recieved our bonuses. Needless to say, we were all stoked about our paychecks.....until we looked closer to see my usual 25% tax was at just over 40%. Also, when it came to do my taxes, for the first time ever, I have to owe......in the high 4 figures! Just because I make to much! Where does all my money go to.......the folks who can't be bothered to get off their asses and contribute. They are happy to sit there, get their welfare checks, their foodstamps, their WIC, their free cell phones and their subsidised housing......thats where all my money goes to.....to these deadbeats. So when the government wants to keep putting programs in place to keep the poor people poor, people like me, who bust their butt are paying for this. Why should someone who is a drain on society be able to get a say. And before you say "oh its constitutional", then maybe the constitution needs to be changed again.....but it wont because we have to many damn bleeding heart liberals out there. Screw it.....maybe I should just quit my job and start becoming a drain on society myself.....it actually looks like a pretty good deal.

[Lambdadelta]

And i have no problem with showing a photo id to vote.

Give all American citizens the necessary photo ID at no cost (direct or indirect) to them, and you're in business.

If there is any cost associated with obtaining this ID (and by extension, the right to vote) it becomes a poll tax, which is explicitly prohibited by the Twenty-fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

 

End of debate.

 

but we do have a democrat in office and non of that has happened yet, except the universal health care which if you dont apply for is a fine of like 1500 bucks.

The Affordable Care Act is not universal healthcare. It's federally-assisted private health coverage. 

 

You need a photo ID to get a fishing license, a hunting license, a marriage license, to get on an airplane, to cash a check, to check into a hotel, to open a bank account, to buy a bottle of booze, to get a library card, to pick up a package at FedEx, to rent a surfboard, to pass through security in public buildings, to get an airline ticket, to get into Disneyland, to get a passport, to buy insurance, to buy a drink in a bar, to sign a lease, to join a gym, to get public assistance, to enter the NAACP convention, to enter the Democat Party convention, to enter the Republican Party convention, to apply for food stamps, to apply for welfare, to apply for Social Security, to to apply for Medicare, to apply for unemployment, to buy a gun, to buy a car, to apply for a mortgate, to adopt a pet, to  buy a cell phone, to go to a casino, to pick up a prescription, to donate blood, to buy a train ticket, to enter an ACT test center, to sell something at a pawn shop, to adopt a child, to apply for a job, camp at a state park, etc. etc. etc.

None of which are constitutionally-guaranteed rights, so your argument is irrelevant.

 

But that same photo ID is just to harsh a requirement to VOTE.  That's just absurd.  Even Mexico requires photo ID to vote.

To my knowledge, Mexico does not have a constitutional prohibition on poll taxes, so this isn't a fair comparison.

[Ikol]

One man, one vote let there be no barriers to that. Anything else is abuseable.

[Lambdadelta]

What if the photo ID was issued at no cost to the voter. All the voter needs to do is present their SS card, their birth certificate (or a certified copy of it) and some sort of proof of residence (if their state requires one) like a utility bill that is in their name. They go to someplace like the DMV, present their paper work.....their name and their place of residence, they get issued a voter ID# (not your SSN), then you step in front of a camera....trying not to blink.....the picture is now in the system and then the the clerk prints/creates your new, shiny, laminated photo ID card.....free of charge.

A few problems - not all the people who are constitutionally-entitled to vote without poll taxation are going to have access to all of those documents (for various reasons) and to obtain replacement copies of them will, no doubt, come at a price (either direct - such as a fee charged for replacement documents, or indirect - such as the cost of travelling to the place where one obtains such documents).

 

Such a price would be, in effect (and probably in intention) a poll tax.

 

If you don't want an ID card, then registering as above with the same info but instead of a card, your thumb print is electronically placed into a voter system.....then when you go to vote, you show up at the polling station, get your thumbprint scanned for identification purposes and away you go to cast your vote.

I have no problem with biometric identification for voting, but I suspect many of the more religious Americans would object vehemently.

 

Once again, it would have to be provided free of all direct and indirect costs, or it's still a poll tax.

[WISD0MTREE]

Why not just let everybody vote? Wouldn't that be cheaper and simpler? Why are you so intent on spending countless taxpayer dollars to prevent something that has at worst one hundredth of a percent prevalence?

 

Voter fraud is a non-issue. The only reason for an ID requirement is to keep people for whom acquiring a photo ID is more inconvenient than it is worth from voting. We already hold our elections during work hours in the middle of a single work day. What more do you need to keep the working poor from voting?

https://www.google.com/#q=el+paso

Like your almost open border? Spent a month there one night. One night I heard at least 30 gunshots. Also, if everyone came here for our advanced society, think of the unemployment rate. 

 

If we raise the price of photo IDs by 40% and have free temporary IDs around elections for those who don't (How do you live in America without one?), we would probably make a profit. Too lazy right now for #s. 

 

Who else said that they wanted to help the working poor? Where are they now? Dead since March 5, 1953. What happened to his country? Bankrupt. Before you say that America is bankrupt, read The Communist by Paul Kengor. He is a capitalist, and you can keep your own doctor.

I still agree that maybe we should have a national 'holiday' that day and have work off (with the exception of cops, security, ER docs, etc.)

[Lambdadelta]

I still agree that maybe we should have a national 'holiday' that day and have work off (with the exception of cops, security, ER docs, etc.)

In Australia, elections are always on a Saturday for this reason, but yes, election day should be a national holiday.

[Casey]

Just let everybody vote - legal or illegal. It's not like the elections are rigged anyway.

[WISD0MTREE]

Just let everybody vote - legal or illegal. It's not like the elections are rigged anyway.

One vote to increase daily likes.

[Sailor Jerry]

In Australia, elections are always on a Saturday for this reason, but yes, election day should be a national holiday.

But it has to be like the on a Wednesday.....if it were on a Monday or Friday, people would be taking those mini - vacations and not go vote! Thia is something I could get behind whole heartedly! And with that day being a national holiday, as the poor working class are on their way to vote, they can stop off and get a "Free" photo ID voter card!!!!! Since no work would be missed, and since you're going out anyway to vote, one would be able to pick up their ID card on their way to vote.....not seeing a problem with that.

 

As to the elections being rigged.....I think we should get rid of the electorial college and just go by popular vote. With todays technology, the votes can be tallied with almost near real time accuracy.

[Grillick]

You think poor people get the day off on national holidays? Seriously?

 

I...I..I don't have words to describe the absurdity of that argument.

 

Weekends and holidays are luxuries enjoyed by the middle and upper classes. That is not a solution. It barely qualifies as an attempt at a solution.

 

And WISD0MTREE, the problems with El Paso are a result of immigration restrictions (and an unstable neighboring government, which is a different issue entirely), not a result of an open border.

[Casey]

I agree with you about removing the Electoral College and replacing it with a popular vote. This replacement will loosen the Republican/Democrat monopoly on political power and raise support for the minor parties that often go unheard. As for voting being a national holiday, I kindly decline that offer. To have a nation stop a majority of its productivity for one day of the year seems a bit harsh on the economy, especially for a fruitless cause. Maybe give citizens a few minutes to vote via electronic devices such as cell phones or laptops. However, I do feel there needs to be a larger incentive to vote. I think the federal government should give a Hamilton to every citizen that casts a vote.

 

Now onto El Paso. The problem is the open borders. Close the borders - no more immigrants. If that dare doesn't work, display public torture/executions of illegal immigrants, or make the immigrants slaves. The forms of torture/execution would include crucifixion, impalement, saw torture, and everybody's favorite - hanged, drawn, and quartered. Fear itself will stop the darn immigrants from ever entering the country, thus remove illegal immigration.

[RedArmy BushMan]

 

You think poor people get the day off on national holidays? Seriously?

 

I...I..I don't have words to describe the absurdity of that argument.

 

Weekends and holidays are luxuries enjoyed by the middle and upper classes. That is not a solution. It barely qualifies as an attempt at a solution.

 

 

I hate agreeing qith you in the debate section but thia is true. I worked almost every holiday, and when I was still in college every weekend. I had to drop out because I was working too much to study and my boss made me spend everyday out of school at work. I started skipping classes to study and do homework.

[WISD0MTREE]

You think poor people get the day off on national holidays? Seriously?

 

I...I..I don't have words to describe the absurdity of that argument.

 

Weekends and holidays are luxuries enjoyed by the middle and upper classes. That is not a solution. It barely qualifies as an attempt at a solution.

 

And WISD0MTREE, the problems with El Paso are a result of immigration restrictions (and an unstable neighboring government, which is a different issue entirely), not a result of an open border.

There is this thing called Maternity Leave. Just put a variant of that for everybody on this holiday, with the exception of critical personal. You could bring in more and have the ones that have to work do a shorter work day. Simple fix. 

 

Immigration restriction. 

Seriously. Please shoot me. Bush, please shoot me. I will pay you to come shoot me. Put me out of this world with this guy. I'm dead serious. 

 

 

 

 

 

I could build a more secure fence than those. Dude. Restrictions. Don't forget that you can keep your health care plan!

[Lambdadelta]

You think poor people get the day off on national holidays? Seriously?

No, we think they should, however. Nobody should be /required/ to work on election day and employers that discriminate against their employees in this respect should be fined out of business.

 

Early, postal and absentee voting needs to be easier to do, also.

 

I agree with you about removing the Electoral College and replacing it with a popular vote. This replacement will loosen the Republican/Democrat monopoly on political power and raise support for the minor parties that often go unheard.

The only way to break the two-party duopoly and make minor parties have meaningful impacts is to replace the first-past-the-post system entirely and have an instant-runoff preferential voting system. On a ballot paper under such a system, voters would simply number the candidates in the order of their preference (1 being the most preferred). This ensures that spoiler candidates cannot happen and that of the final two candidates, the one that wins will be the one that the majority (of voters) supports over the other.

[WISD0MTREE]

The only way to break the two-party duopoly and make minor parties have meaningful impacts is to replace the first-past-the-post system entirely and have an instant-runoff preferential voting system. 

And how does that happen?  

 

It can't without guns.  

[Grillick]

WISD0MTREE, I wasn't talking about the physical border when I said immigration restrictions. I was talking about the legal landscape and bureaucracy.

 

But the question of immigration is for another thread, and I won't start a new thread from my phone. Maybe I'll post one when I get to a full-sized computer.

[Lambdadelta]

And how does that happen?  

 

It can't without guns.

Vote for candidates who promote this policy. Don't vote for those who don't. Entice others who want meaningful democracy to do the same.

 

No guns required.

[Sailor Jerry]

You think poor people get the day off on national holidays? Seriously?

 

I...I..I don't have words to describe the absurdity of that argument.

 

Weekends and holidays are luxuries enjoyed by the middle and upper classes. That is not a solution. It barely qualifies as an attempt at a solution.

 

And WISD0MTREE, the problems with El Paso are a result of immigration restrictions (and an unstable neighboring government, which is a different issue entirely), not a result of an open border.

WTF are you on about! So you're telling that poor people work 7 days a week, 365 days a year?! WTFever. They take no holidays off, no Christmas day, no New Years day, no Thanksgiving, no 4th of July.....even if their place of employment is closed.....I guess they still work then. 7 days a week, 365 days a year......that is the most adsurd thing about this arguement....that the poor people are constantly working all the time.....that they are carring the weight of the world on their very shoulders! So if the poor are always working and can't take a single day off.....I guess then they can't be relied upon to vote....since they are too busy anyway......so I guess people who are at the poverty level or under just don't get to vote then.....what a shame!

[RedArmy BushMan]

WTF are you on about! So you're telling that poor people work 7 days a week, 365 days a year?! WTFever. They take no holidays off, no Christmas day, no New Years day, no Thanksgiving, no 4th of July.....even if their place of employment is closed.....I guess they still work then. 7 days a week, 365 days a year......that is the most adsurd thing about this arguement....that the poor people are constantly working all the time.....that they are carring the weight of the world on their very shoulders! So if the poor are always working and can't take a single day off.....I guess then they can't be relied upon to vote....since they are too busy anyway......so I guess people who are at the poverty level or under just don't get to vote then.....what a shame!

No what he's saying is they don't normally get days like holidays and weekends off. Usually their days off will be in the middle of the week, and they are rarely consecutive. Then the people who need to work two jobs, they very rarely get time off unless they schedule it well in advanced.  Employers don't like paying people, so they higher as few people as they realistically can, and work them as much as possible without going into over time.

[Lambdadelta]

WTF are you on about! So you're telling that poor people work 7 days a week, 365 days a year?! WTFever. They take no holidays off, no Christmas day, no New Years day, no Thanksgiving, no 4th of July.....even if their place of employment is closed.....I guess they still work then. 7 days a week, 365 days a year......that is the most adsurd thing about this arguement....that the poor people are constantly working all the time.....that they are carring the weight of the world on their very shoulders! So if the poor are always working and can't take a single day off.....I guess then they can't be relied upon to vote....since they are too busy anyway......so I guess people who are at the poverty level or under just don't get to vote then.....what a shame!

You try asking your employer for a day off to vote in America. Nine times out of ten, you'd be laughed off or fired.

[Sailor Jerry]

No what he's saying is they don't normally get days like holidays and weekends off. Usually their days off will be in the middle of the week, and they are rarely consecutive. Then the people who need to work two jobs, they very rarely get time off unless they schedule it well in advanced.  Employers don't like paying people, so they higher as few people as they realistically can, and work them as much as possible without going into over time.

If they get days off in the middle of the week, then with the voting day already on a Tuesday, there shouldn't be a problem...if they are off anyway and can vote, then they should be able to get a voter ID card on the same day as they are going to vote. And to those folks who say "Everyone regardless of if they are a citizen should be able to vote.....here is a better solution then.....1 world government with no borders at all......instead of having citizens from 200 plus countries......why not just become citizens of the world.....one set of laws and one set of rulers/politicians to govern us all!!!!!

[Lambdadelta]

instead of having citizens from 200 plus countries......why not just become citizens of the world.....one set of laws and one set of rulers/politicians to govern us all!!!!!

Good luck selling that to those people in America who have been brainwashed into thinking that the UN wants to take away their freedom and commit genocide on them to satisfy those tree-hugging commies like Al Gore.

 

In any case, this suggestion would not fundamentally alter the nature of the problem here - unfettered access to the right to vote.

[Sailor Jerry]

You try asking your employer for a day off to vote in America. Nine times out of ten, you'd be laughed off or fired.

 

Once again.....how long are the polling stations open for? I don't know of anyone who works 14 plus a day....unless you are an ER doc, or first responder who unfortunately for them are required to work those crazy shifts. As stated in an earlier post.....employers don't like to pay overtime so at the most they'd work either 8-10....maybe 12 hours.....still time to go and vote!

[Lambdadelta]

Once again.....how long are the polling stations open for? I don't know of anyone who works 14 plus a day....

A lot of US polling stations have seen very long queues (up to six hours!) for people wanting to vote in the past.

If you happen to live in an area where this is the case, you're almost certainly going to need the whole day off.

As for how long they're open for - if it's anything like here in Australia, it'll be somewhere on the order of nine hours (9am to 6pm).

 

People should be paid by the government to take a day off to vote (or alternately, employers should be reimbursed by the government for that day's wages). This would solve the problem of the people who need to work that day to make ends meet.