Shadowthrone

Yes because pointing out how devising exclusionary community methods to awards is pushing toxicity. I have massive amounts of respect for you, but trying to create a new set of awards because folks feel entitled to win and didn't in the ones just completed is still a silly idea.

I mean I've been using this word quite a bit recently, but I do love how entitled folks have to believe they are, that they keep devising absolutely exclusionary methods for awards, when the most open/free for all exercise was just completed and didn't turn out the way they wanted.

No thanks. Our awards are done for 2019. Try again in 2020.

The Afrika Korps was definitely not "anti-communist" or fought the Soviets in any serious battle in Northern Africa. It fought the British Empire, the legacy of which even today was he fought versus the colonial armies (Indians especially). The AK for all of its "clean" image, was always an army that fought for the NAZIS, led by someone who was close to Hitler, and who at best was the hero celebrated by that Government till his eventual falling out over his alleged support for the July 20th plot. Revising history here doesn't do any good to somehow clean AK's image within this game. Khai/Skae and others weren't NAZIs and AK at large had no such connotation, since to me they were hardcore weaboos (same2same), from Entitei Ropurei and have always been consistent with the said themes. AK may have been a lightning rod to distasteful characters who'd see the theme and try to co-opt their views into AK, but were rightfully dealt with when brought up. Trying to use historical revisionism to okay the existence of the theme does a greater disservice to players who seemed more interested in the Girls und Panzer anime, than attempting any historical revisionism. The Afrika Korps will always be tainted for the country/system they fought for and were supported by and no amount of bleach/white-wash can get rid of that stain. Girls und Panzer/Weaboos on the other hand and players who have no interest in the name apart from an anime is a different ball-game to an extent, so attempting to connect the two, is a disservice to Khai/Skae and others here imho.

Which is why the system as this year and 2017 saw is good enough. Anything else by design is exclusionary or believed in some goodness and objective means of arriving at awards. Won’t happen. Awards are fun memey things that shouldn’t matter this much that folks spend countless hours trying to equivocate over.

The rules are fine as is.

Expecting alliance leaders not to vote for their groups/ somehow are unbiased is also an assumption that's bound to fail. The present system is fairer than most other since it doesn't exclude folks.

I'd call you out for being disingenuous, but I think your post history does more to showcase that then anything else really. This is February 2018 mind you, back when we had just come out of ToT, got hit by TJest and other stuff and here you are with your *benefit of the doubt. But your caveat pretty much proves my point, folks like you and a tonne of others refuse to work with Roquentin because of CN, so we've had to play the game here taking that into account. Anything and everything we do somehow has some connection to what the NPO did in CN, yet none of us in leadership here were apart of that, or see the parallels. I thank you for teaching us how exactly to win at this game. Your wonderful advice as allies has indeed come in handy! And vice versa yet you haven't taken that up. So let's just say there is no motivation in either side to move forward and the attitudes are dug in. So here we are.

I do not believe there is a via medium where we can change this meta between the respective players easily. If this war has showed anything it is the toxic underbelly that has come out wide open. How do you change the meta when the only IC riposte to Roquentin or myself is "you're paranoid." Its just the actions taken so far seem to follow a pattern, one we've been watching over the years and for everything we've done to help change the meta or even attempt to reach out half way to your side of the pond, all we got is "it's not good enough" or if we did take independent action the line is "paranoia." At the end of the day the simplest way to change this is if your side stopped attempting to connect our actions here with an outside world and try to attribute that to killing this game as if its some NPO mantra. But that's not going to go. Your coalition and our coalition have drawn the lines in the sand. Where really is a way out. Your member base has made it clear that NPO bad man, so where exactly is the path forward?

No. We have explained our substance and that is why we moved in the first place. There were no lies, a situation developed, went out of control and we acted while we can.

To add to what Roq and Edward says (also hi @Hodor thanks for the love), there is something I believe folks refuse to accept, or agree to and that will be that Roq or myself owed any of you anything. There is this entitlement that you have a right to decide how the game should play and the place of the NPO within that system, and that's something that adds a huge role into this present scenario. The NPO for the longest time has always had to exist in a system that was constructed first by tS/OO/MENSA, followed by the completion of EMC with Rose. The remnants of that system was always a cool boys club of folks who drift in and out and there was never any means to disrupt that as the NPO since we were the easiest bogeyman to fall back onto. Folks forget, that the vast majority of KERTCHOGG leadership have been similar faces that ran the NPOFT and Silent right after. The changes in alliances/names still brought out leadership looking to fight us during AC. At the end of the day, there was no means by which the NPO would not always be a target, and forced into this entitled straitjacket of a meta not set by ourselves for the game. We spent years with people calling our tax system horrible, that we had to git gud, oh and to crown it all off, that we're nothing but robots and have no real community that defines us. These are jokes, but these narratives made it clear, especially when fully supported by many in Coalition A's leadership that the NPO's role in this game would never be defined by ourselves. We always had to play in your meta. For all the claims of wanting to have a fun game, all I see is a narrow mini-sphere answer, and that this is the only right way to play, and I fundamentally disagree with that. Both Roq and I saw this war, at the beginning a means to further enshrine that stranglehold over the meta and FA over the game and that to me at least played a part in concurring to use the TKR CB now, and not later. I am glad someone pointed out that we're all plotting continuously. It's the nature of the game and its bread and butter. So the moralistic hill is just funny to see, when we have logs of TKR plotting a war over IQ, gift wrapped as some anti-hegemony narrative, when at its basic level was nothing other than using the old NPO/BK bad man trope that a lot of folks have spent years and attempted various means to push. That itself to us was problematic. For all the belief in "fairness" and "trust", and in this "two-way" street of foreign affairs, NPO was most often an outlier and benign because we were forced to out of necessity. The conditions leading up to this war changed. I think Buor mentioned that we flip flopped a lot on our positions early on? Well that's what happens in a fluid war time scenario. Unlike common belief, war doesn't happen in a vacuum. Things keep changing, tiers keep moving at least in the early days and one gets a feel. Was there a war planned vs KETOGG yes, but did that have anything to do with BK or anything else, not really. It was meant to be 1v1 to see how this mini-sphere could work, and if there was any real buy-in to let this kind of war happen. That did not happen because of Surfs Up and our views regarding that, multi-varied as they are, has been stated. But for any mini-sphere idea to truly work, especially if history is any pointer within the environment of the game (that being the precedent set by EMC), to the victor goes the spoils. There are a large number of alliances who do absolutely nothing, but bandwagon on and build into those victorious spheres, for the fact that they don't have to do much and have an easy victory. That is inherently problematic when mini-spheres combine, because to us looking in from the outside, it seemed a threat. The lack of any FA to assuage our concerns and an information blackhole was further problematic because what we saw especially as the early rounds saw quite a lot of Citadel fold, and Cov/BK on shaky ground was simply put, a threat. A threat not born out of paranoia, but out of working within the meta I explained earlier on in this post and reinforced by the creation of EMC. As @Edward I rightly pointed out in one of his posts, this meta and lack of trust was further eroded in the past due to paperless agreements. That fundamentally shaped the way we see the game. You can claim it paranoia, but the conversations we've had with folks and the nature of discussions over the years, poisoned the well when it came to believing that the "fracture" points within KETOGG/Chaos/Rose would remain wide enough that a meta based around paperless would not arise again. It's easy to be everyone's secret partner if everyone's in on it, and all the NPO would have is tS/HS. This brings me to tS/HS. HS are an absolute gem of an alliance with by far some of the most mature/pragmatic folk I know in the game. That being said, with regards to tS, our faith in their word changed when their government changed just before the war. The actions of Sisyphus/Leopold and Utmos later on, left us wondering where is the path forward. They may be disappointed with how the war shaped early on, but unlike HS who were willing to wrinkle out the issues and attempt to work out a common point, tS and its triumvirate believed more in the face-loss, than the real material nature of war itself. That led to us wondering how is it going to work further down the road. But tS was still at least communicating some of their treaties (Sanreizan/TEst), which to us was a sign that required to be reciprocated. That changed the moment the CTO/OWR treaty was signed, since to us, it seemed simply put a middle finger to the NPO/ and its war efforts, and once again changed the landscape within with we had to operate. Whatever those logs showcase, my reasoning for being involved in those discussions stemmed from what I saw was a move designed to build a base for tS that did not include us. So how does all of this lead to the term "zero-sum" that I have used quite a bit? An entitled belief that one set of players have the right to decide our meta and how we play, along with the history of actions, especially that of paperless that poisoned the well, and the actions/narratives portrayed when one side was winning the early rounds of this war, pointed to a bunch things. Namely: 1) Given the opportunity, old allies will always find common targets, and or have secret agreements as in the past that we have no knowledge off, and the reason was NPO/BK man bad, 2) That no action that the NPO did, would we ever control our own fate, because the peanut gallery would never be satisfied, 3) The early narratives from KERTCHOGG lit a fire they really could not pull back from and that for whatever reason you wish to speculate upon, was used by us to ensure we come out of this with a win. The fact is, I do believe the NPO has been blamed for a lot of things, that we did not do over the years. That a lot of folks refuse to work with us solely because of what Roq did in a game that should not be mentioned and that these actions are justified to be weary of his motivations doesn't work one sided. I don't know any of the present leadership except a few, but nevertheless if that is the framework in which you wish to operate, then that is the one we should also be allowed to operate within. If we're looking at actions, there are a plethora of actions taken against the NPO over the last three years and this war seemed to be a final culmination to permanently damage us. Given that we either follow or be killed, we chose a different option and that was to work with Coalition B, to disrupt the prevailing meta, and set up our own meta, without necessarily having to face an existential war. To do that, we had to jump in and do what Coalition A was doing, and I see our actions as simply ensuring our safety and security because our job is to make this game fun for our members, regardless of those from your side who believe they have the right to pontificate to us about how to play the game. tl;dr A history of Roq's action is fair game for everyone, but if we look at the same with regards to you folk, we're paranoid, power hungry game killers. We're tired of that nonsense and decided to flip the script. Here we are.

Nah, you folks had a choice and rolled the dice. We answered it to ensure balance remains in the game.

Don't remind them of that! It's all NPO bad man and these folks have been nothing but altruistic great players, while openly lying about things.

Feel free to call it a conspiracy theory, I just call it the way I see it I look forward to more of the same.

Says the dude who's alliance has "ties" to Rose for years while it was never much in shape of a treaty. I look forward to your magical tie up with tS and TKR down the road and hiding under the umbrella of "fun" wars.

Lol "truly paperless."

You accepted to surrender and we presented to you the entire surrender term as Term 1. Term 2 went into different things, Term 3 etc etc. The fact that we only achieved a discussion on Term 1 is on you not us really, given how we were willing to continue going forward through the terms one by one, as clearly outlined before we opened the first round of negotiations. That's not really disingenuous. That's the process. You started it and then chose to walk away. That's all documented fact.

If you weren't to be entirely factual, you did receive terms. You accepted term 1 and received term 2. So plural works here.

How is that making up shit? KERTCHOGG received the first team, we negotiated came to an agreement and the negotiations stopped there. That's fact. Where really is the lie here?

Missed the first part of my post didn't you? Or does your plotting in Feb/March not count now? And yes indeed, to carry out rolling BKSphere with KETOGG would involve some level of planning/plotting no? Still wonder how that's not public record. And also truthful

Amusing but wrong. KERTCHOGG raises a narrative that makes it clear that this is now a zero-sum game. Here we are playing your game. So you didn't plan a war on BK/IQ? You didn't start a war with BK? Those are both facts that has happened within this calendar year. One has logs on the forums, the other is the war we're still fighting. With regards to KETOGG/Rose, yeah they were busy trying to roll BK for a while as well, so I mean it makes sense. But you did attempt to plan a BK hit and then did hit BK actually. But nice to see how all of this publicly available knowledge is suddenly a lie.

Yet those sentiments put out early on doesn't really go away. You can state you don't buy their vision, fair enough, but you can't deny the role your alliance has within the coalition that fanned those flames that set up the war as it is. At the end of the day, you folks when in the drivers seat came out and made it seem it was going to be a painful damned peace and your coalition's government didn't slow down that take, but took it and raised it into a real threat. That would be false given most of KERTCHOGG turning up in NPO DoW's making it clear this is a grudge match. Again it's absolutely outstanding that you try to deflect the role your alliance and coalition as a whole has had in creating a situation that ensured this is a grudge match, where if any quarter is given, it would bite us in the ass. We're just ensuring that we're playing the same game you've set up. Also let us not forget your wonderful coalition members used to brag on their AA page the number of people they kicked out of the game/ alliances disbanded. So its not some unknown MO that you can conveniently forget. So when those threats are out, a vast number of members raising that threat and narrative, its not hard to believe the rubicon has been crossed. If anyone has got it so far, its Avakael. Your side has as much responsibility for crossing the Rubicon that you'd love to lay our feet, but those logs you tout, those are but conversations that have arisen due to the actions of your coalition. "Lets roll IQ and BK!" Okay drat, "lets roll BKSphere!" I mean you literally planned out two wars vs BK and pulled the plug on one of those. KETOGG was busy going around spheres trying to hit BK for an easy roll and N$O/NPO told them nah, try again and this was just before Surf's Up. So I mean its hilarious but quite true!

No but are leaders in your coalition who's sentiments set up the tone of the war. Your attempts of backtracking still don't involve themselves walking those sentiments back. Honestly, it's extremely disingenuous of your entire coalition leadership to claim you didn't have a role in the stakes your side set up. Own it, you pushed the war into what it is today, and we're fine answering it. Because it has become a zero sum game with threats to our survival put forth by you all early on. Kinda pathetic that you're so fixated on BK, who you attacked and planned to like a month or two before that as well! Quite pathetic really! Stating that, I shall continue enjoying rolling CTO/OWR TKR logic: We're all honourable to be fixated on rolling BK over and over again, but if anyone else wants to damage alliances for reasons, it is pathetic!

Far more than yours.

BK literally got caught planning a grudge war, that everyone else was also literally got caught planning. To state KETOGG or Chaos wasn't would be disingenuous at best. NPO entered because it did have to do with our survival, yes. Sitting out was not an option otherwise we would have. Not feigning being appalled. Just pointing out that you raised the stakes with those call outs, so we are here answering it. Its nice of you try and claim Keegoz/Sketchy were just "memes" but it was not. You can't take back narratives that were pushed and set the tone of the war. Folks may attempt to walk back those sentiments but those two personally never did, and no one really cannot claim that sentiment just magically went away. So yeah, you raised the stakes, we're answering it. Welcome to the zero-sum stakes your side set up. CTO/OWR is an exception to that. They most definitely deserve to be rolled for a time longer than one month. So yah no, try again.