Abu Haddad Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 why would god sacrifice himself to save humanity Caliph of The Caliphate of Arabia. Caliph of the Islamic State of Arabia. Principle of The Principality of Chechnya. Grand Emir of The Emirate of The Caucus. Emperor of the Empire of Persia. Sultan of The Sultanates of Turkey and The Crimea. Czar of the Tsardom of The Balkans. Archon of The Archonate of Greece. Supreme Consul of The Consulate of Italy. Shah of The Shahdom Of Khorason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) why would god sacrifice himself to save humanity Same reason he's supposed to come back to destroy it, kinda. Also, I don't think Christianity deviates from monotheism. Being raised Christian, there was always emphasis placed on the idea that Jesus and God are one in the same. Jesus was simply God made flesh. Edited October 26, 2015 by Fox Fire _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abu Haddad Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 wouldn't it be easier for god to save humanity in another way. and less painful Caliph of The Caliphate of Arabia. Caliph of the Islamic State of Arabia. Principle of The Principality of Chechnya. Grand Emir of The Emirate of The Caucus. Emperor of the Empire of Persia. Sultan of The Sultanates of Turkey and The Crimea. Czar of the Tsardom of The Balkans. Archon of The Archonate of Greece. Supreme Consul of The Consulate of Italy. Shah of The Shahdom Of Khorason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim (Banned) Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Also, I don't think Christianity deviates from monotheism. Being raised Christian, there was always emphasis placed on the idea that Jesus and God are one in the same. Jesus was simply God made flesh. To make a statement, symbolism, and to "save" us from our sins. It's making God into a relatable entity Innocent blood has to be shed in order for God to forgive? God essentially committed suicide? No. That makes no sense. Edited October 26, 2015 by Ibrahim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim (Banned) Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) I thought you said you understood Christianity? I don't believe the bible teaches that, but Christians have taken Paul as a prophet, and follow him as opposed to Jesus Christ. Jesus didn't even die on the cross according to the bible. He was wounded and was receiving medical treatment on the floor of a rich man's tomb (which is a like a cave), then he left, and went back to his companions. Nor did Jesus ever say that he was God and that his companions should worship him. Edited October 26, 2015 by Ibrahim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ap Ioan Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) The bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus died so that we could be forgiven. He said the only way to the father is through him. He also makes it clear that whoever chooses not to believe in him will go to hell. The majority of Christians believe this, but the choice is yours..... Something doesn't have to make sense to be true, look at Quantum..... Edited October 26, 2015 by Rob Ap Ioan Still a man hears what he wants to hearAnd disregards the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Innocent blood has to be shed in order for God to forgive? God essentially committed suicide? No. That makes no sense. Neither does blaming women for getting raped, executing homosexuals or !@#$ing 8 yr old girls. But yeah... #Sharia4America 2 _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Avalanche Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 why would god sacrifice himself to save humanity According to the Early Church Fathers, God had to conquer Death in order to give us eternal life. In so doing- Jesus had to die and then Resurrect himself in order to "conquer" Death. Salvation is not completely focused on the forgiveness of sin, per say but is supposed to be more focused on the victorious conquering over Death to live eternally with the Father. This is why much of the Eastern Church has a hesitation when dealing with the Western teachings of Original Sin and Mariology in dealing with the Immaculate Conception brought forth by St. Augustine. 2 Beer. Damn Good Beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ap Ioan Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Jesus didn't even die on the cross according to the bible. He was wounded and was receiving medical treatment on the floor of a rich man's tomb (which is a like a cave), then he left, and went back to his companions. Nor did Jesus ever say that he was God and that his companions should worship him. Are you saying Jesus lied in Matthew 16:21? According to the Early Church Fathers, God had to conquer Death in order to give us eternal life. In so doing- Jesus had to die and then Resurrect himself in order to "conquer" Death. Salvation is not completely focused on the forgiveness of sin, per say but is supposed to be more focused on the victorious conquering over Death to live eternally with the Father. This is why much of the Eastern Church has a hesitation when dealing with the Western teachings of Original Sin and Mariology in dealing with the Immaculate Conception brought forth by St. Augustine. I have always agreed with the Eastern church on these issues, it causes my biggest issue with Calvinism. Edited October 26, 2015 by Rob Ap Ioan 1 Still a man hears what he wants to hearAnd disregards the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I don't believe the bible teaches that, but Christians have taken Paul as a prophet, and follow him as opposed to Jesus Christ. Jesus didn't even die on the cross according to the bible. He was wounded and was receiving medical treatment on the floor of a rich man's tomb (which is a like a cave), then he left, and went back to his companions. Nor did Jesus ever say that he was God and that his companions should worship him. John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things) John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.†Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.†John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.†John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.†Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?†The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.†John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.†John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?†John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!†Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.†Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood) Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us) Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men. Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily 1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ 2 _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 According to the Early Church Fathers, God had to conquer Death in order to give us eternal life. In so doing- Jesus had to die and then Resurrect himself in order to "conquer" Death. Salvation is not completely focused on the forgiveness of sin, per say but is supposed to be more focused on the victorious conquering over Death to live eternally with the Father. This is why much of the Eastern Church has a hesitation when dealing with the Western teachings of Original Sin and Mariology in dealing with the Immaculate Conception brought forth by St. Augustine. Give this man a !@#$ing cookie. 1 _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ap Ioan Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Give this man a !@#$ cookie. *shares out the cookies, you deserve one to* Still a man hears what he wants to hearAnd disregards the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Avalanche Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 -clipped- Funny how the two Non-Practitioners are debating Christian Soteriology with a Sunni. Orbis is an interesting place. 3 Beer. Damn Good Beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ap Ioan Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Funny how the two Non-Practitioners are debating Christian Soteriology with a Sunni. Orbis is an interesting place. Yes but you are debating it with academic skill........You might not agree with my religion but you are not interpreting it based off your own religion. 2 Still a man hears what he wants to hearAnd disregards the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim (Banned) Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) The bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Hold up. The bible's very clear that every soul is responsible for it's own sins, not those of others, and the sinner will die (not the sinless): "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16) "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them." (Ezek 18:20) Jesus died so that we could be forgiven. Evidence? He said the only way to the father is through him. He also makes it clear that whoever chooses not to believe in him will go to hell. The majority of Christians believe this, but the choice is yours..... "Through him" means following his teachings and abiding by them. It does not mean worshiping him. And, Indeed this is true, but only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, at that time, and not for the Gentiles (everyone who is not Jewish). "He (Jesus) answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6) Edited October 26, 2015 by Ibrahim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Avalanche Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Being an Ex-Minister helps too. 1 Beer. Damn Good Beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ap Ioan Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Ibrahim: I could give you all the evidence in the Bible for Jesus' divinity and the truth of the Christian faith but you would still ask for evidence. You have your mind set in a particular way. I have no need to post the same evidence time and time again. Your understanding of what Christianity is, is wrong. Still a man hears what he wants to hearAnd disregards the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Funny how the two Non-Practitioners are debating Christian Soteriology with a Sunni. Orbis is an interesting place. Yes but you are debating it with academic skill........You might not agree with my religion but you are not interpreting it based off your own religion. I like to keep an open mind. As a Taoist, I believe "everything is as it should be". I personally doubt the idea of "God" as described in Abrahamic religions, but I don't doubt the existence of God and I fully accept the fact that people have different opinions. I try to follow a Yin path in regards to religion, but I have a very outspoken Yang personality. Sometimes I feel bad for criticizing others, but I can't help it. Hold up. The bible's very clear that every soul is responsible for it's own sins, not those of others, and the sinner will die (not the sinless): "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16) "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them." (Ezek 18:20) Evidence? "Through him" means following his teachings and abiding by them. It does not mean worshiping him. And, Indeed this is true but only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, at that time, and not for the Gentiles (everyone who is not Jewish). "He (Jesus) answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24) "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6) The evidence we can provide for Jesus being God is limited. Obviously, nobody can prove it, or else we would all be Christian. In the same way, the evidence you have for Muhammad being a prophet is equally limited. Otherwise, we would all be Muslim. 1 _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim (Banned) Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) The evidence we can provide for Jesus being God is limited. Obviously, nobody can prove it, or else we would all be Christian. In the same way, the evidence you have for Muhammad being a prophet is equally limited. Otherwise, we would all be Muslim. I have actually read the bible a lot more than most Christians I know in RL, so I am able to give my opinion on It. I would contest, however, that you haven't even read the Quran and that it's not limited, but contains ALL the evidence, and you just haven't examined it. If you don't examine the evidence, how could you expect to be Muslim? Edited October 26, 2015 by Ibrahim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim (Banned) Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 You must know some pretty illiterate Christians. I would say they read the bible some-what more regularly than the average Christian living in western Europe. I also have read the Qu'ran, so yeah.. How much have you read... all of it? Have you studied it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I have actually read the bible a lot more than most Christians I know in RL, so I am able to give my opinion on It. I would contest, however, that you haven't even read the Quran and that it's not limited, but contains ALL the evidence, and you just haven't examined it. If you don't examine the evidence, how could you expect to be Muslim? Actually, at my local library here, there is this highly decorated Quran I used to read. Green with gold trim. It's written in English on the left and Arabic on the right. I thought it was quite beautiful and would read pieces of it in between studying European history. I'll fully admit that I have only read a small amount, but nothing I've read stands out to me as "evidence" or more believable than any other Abrahamic religion. I certainly saw nothing scientifically convincing to me that Muhammad spoke to God. Same with any other prophet from Judaism to Christianity. _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doktor Avalanche Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 You must know some pretty illiterate Christians. I also have read the Qu'ran, so yeah.. I, too, have read the Quran(in English). I am blessed to have a copy if it that is a parallel translation with the Arabic texts included. It was a gift. 1 Beer. Damn Good Beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Ap Ioan Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) I have actually read the bible a lot more than most Christians I know in RL, so I am able to give my opinion on It. I suggest you read it with an open mind. I have no desire to debate the Quran for this very reason. edited for clarity Edited October 26, 2015 by Rob Ap Ioan Still a man hears what he wants to hearAnd disregards the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim (Banned) Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Actually, at my local library here, there is this highly decorated Quran I used to read. Green with gold trim. It's written in English on the left and Arabic on the right. I thought it was quite beautiful and would read pieces of it in between studying European history. I'll fully admit that I have only read a small amount, but nothing I've read stands out to me as "evidence" or more believable than any other Abrahamic religion. I certainly saw nothing scientifically convincing to me that Muhammad spoke to God. Same with any other prophet from Judaism to Christianity. You could try looking up the Tafsir (commentary) for whatever it is you read, as that will undoubtedly expand your understanding. I, too, have read the Quran(in English). I am blessed to have a copy if it that is a parallel translation with the Arabic texts included. It was a gift. I would recommend also getting "Tafsir Ibn Kathir" (In English). I suggest you read it with an open mind. I have no desire to study the Quran for this very reason. I have been. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim (Banned) Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I have read the entire thing 4 times, but I have no need to study a book of a religion I do not follow nor wish to follow. That's pretty good. Maybe go over it one more time whilst also reading the commentary for each verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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