Phoenyx

A treaty that both Swamp and HM were signatories with. My understanding is that had you hit Rose instead of HM and Swamp, the other 2 would have activated their informal/secret treaty and I suppose you'd know be attacking them instead. Luck of the draw I guess.

As far as I can see, Rose didn't ask Oasis for help, though I'd be surprised if they minded. Oasis did that for reasons that I think Tyrion and James have done and are doing their best to explain.

While I certainly think what you are saying is funny and has -some- truth to it, I also believe that different Alliances and Blocs have different levels of seriousness when it comes to CB. I have always felt that Tyrion and TFP have been very careful as to their CBs and who they attack. As you may know, my first Alliance was in fact TFP and I chose them precisely because of that. Why are you declaring against Rose? TKR, I kind of understand, "secret treaty" and all, but you were the -beneficiary- of that secret treaty which you specifically wanted.

There was indeed a defensive treaty because many Blocs, including HM (note that part) felt that Quack was getting too big and aggressive. Ronny's HM specifically stated that he wouldn't want to attack (and, by extension, counter) Quack unless Rose was a part of the treaty and low and behold Rose did enter the treaty. As to secretive, I think it was secretive in the same sense that your attack on Rose now was secretive- something you may have been considering but didn't actually agree on doing until shortly before you actually attacked them. As mentioned elsewhere, I think it's rather sad that HM, far from being grateful for the defense, seems to be holding it against them. Or maybe they just wanted another war, and if it was one of their former defenders, oh well?

I really don't think so. Oblivion was quite funny with its thread over in Orbis Central, but speaking as an FA member of Delta we were told that Oblivion had no interest in peace talks, so we were essentially forced to go to war with them to uphold our reputation as defending each other. Since Oblivion was part of HM, they then attacked us. I'm happy we were able to work out a peace resolution fairly quickly, because our upper tier (and for Delta, even I'm upper tier) was getting seriously hurt, but it doesn't change the fact that it's clearly a war we never wanted.

Here's what I know- I know that back when Swamp, led by Immortals and TFP at the time, had first floated the idea of a defensive treaty, HM's Grumpy leader, Ronny, specifically said that he wouldn't be part of any treaty against Quack if Rose wasn't a part of it. So clearly, it mattered to Ronny that Rose be a part of it and it looks like he got his wish, because Rose did in fact join against Quack. I find it particularly sad that Rose is now being attacked by HM for its troubles, but well, there you have it.

Can't remember, I was definitely summoned to one of these threads though :-p.

Alright, here's a theory for you: Quack gets some false rumours that HM/Swamp are going to attack them. So they begin to build up and attack HM, as well as a part of Swamp (TCW). Rose gets wind that Quack will attack them and decides to attack them first. Only Quack beats them to it. I admit this is just conjecture. I was only in Rose briefly and hadn't heard this bit that they were planning to attack Quack first. Perhaps Rose will comment on this in the future.

Alright. So is it possible that they were simply planning how to counter attack in the event that they were attacked? That is what all the anti Quack forces have said, so it would fit with the evidence. Actually, I started thinking, perhaps they were tipped off that Quack was going to attack and so began planning the counter attack for that reason. I was in TFP before the war started. As far as I know we didn't do sheets, but we certainly suspected that Quack might attack us soon due to their military build up, so we built up militarily as well.

Well, that's certainly not a version of events that I've heard of before, but it may have just been "in the event that we are attacked" preparations. Can you share which Alliance/Bloc did these sheets?

Yes, Ronny said as much. It was done -after- they were attacked, some frantic scrambling to get it done, but they did it.

I guess some myths die hard. To this day, I haven't seen any hard evidence that Quack was going to get blitzed. A few comments made by HM inspired by a misinterpretation of something Swamp leadership said, sure, nothing more. My last post in this thread presents evidence that that's what really happened if you're interested.

What happened in Duck Hunt is Quack listened to some false rumours that HM, Swamp and others were going to attack them (they weren't), so they attacked HM and TCW, the anti Quack forces got their defensive treaty activated (paperless, sure, but in fairness, it was still being formed at the time of activation) and the rest is history. Now, to be fair, there was confusion during the whole war about this. Interestingly, one of the key pieces of evidence used by Quack that they were right during the war and well after it was a statement that Grumpy's Ronny made. It was even turned into an ad. This led me to look into Ron's source which turned into the quest to find the "Secret HM Leader". It took a -long- time for his identity to finally be revealed to the general public (it was Left Behind), but Shifty came through and I think the thread where that happened finally vindicated what Tyrion had said all along- there was no plan to attack Quack. It seems that HM misinterpreted what Tyrion and Swamp had been wanting (a defensive treaty, not an offensive one), but when Tyrion finally stated this publicly and Left Behind didn't disagree, I think the matter was finally put to rest. For those who aren't aware, that all happened here:

My understanding is their reasoning was the same as everyone else's in the anti Quack force leadership. Tyrion gets into it in the following post:

I suppose we can all define what we mean by "not by much". So let's do this by percentage. Rose slightly outnumbers you guys in the C1-9 tier, around 8% more in that category. But you guys have 63% more in the C10-12 tier, 320% more in the C11-12 tier, 257% more in the C13-14 tier, 257% more in the C15-16 tier, 191% more in the C17-18 tier, 174% more in the C19-20 tier, and 203% more in the 21-23 tier. After this point, we have a few tiers where I would agree that "not by much" applies and a single tier where Rose actually has a bit more than you: You only have 7% more in the 24-26 tier, around 4% more in the 27-30 tier and the 31-34 tier is the one tier where Rose has more than Hollywood, with Rose having 21% more in that tier than Hollywood. I'm sure Hollywood could more than make up for that based on the fact that in the final 35+ tier, Hollywood has around 71% more nations. Now, with the addition of Oasis, you become outnumbered in every tier but the top one (You still outnumber them by around 38% on that one). I echo Zevari's sentiments on this turn of events. In the last war, Rose and other Blocs (including, ironically, HM) agreed to a defensive treaty if Quack were to attack one of their Blocs. As to why they didn't announce it to the world, I'm thinking that part of the reason may well have been that it was literally still being formed to some extent. It seems that Immortals was integral in promoting this defensive treaty and so it stands to reason that Immortals would wish to defend Rose now that they are being punished for agreeing to a treaty that Immortals had promoted. I know that's not the reason Tyrion gave for entering this war, but from a poetic justice perspective, it makes sense for that reason as well as the reasons he gave.

Based on your own numbers, Hollywood outmatches Rose in every tier but the 31-34 category. And they have almost twice as many in the 35+ range. Even adding Oasis, you guys still heavily outnumber them in the 35+ range, but the tide turns the other way for most if not all of the other tiers. I think another serious issue is the lack of CB for attacking Rose. Like the Leaky Faucet Global War start, strong Spheres giving flimsy or non existent CBs tends to put other Spheres on edge, and for good reason.

Thank you, no longer have to guess as to why you guys entered this war 🙂

Which ally? Update: It looks like James was talking about the Leaky Faucet Global War. In that case, the ally would be TCM.

Oh boy :-p. I just found out about this war. All I can do is guess what happened- Hollywood just came on the scene and as it arrived, declared war on Rose (for reasons unknown). So perhaps Oasis felt some loyalty to Rose for helping in the Leaky Faucet war and decided to help them out this time? Hopefully will find out more soon.

We certainly wanted an end to the conflict, but you haven't destroyed us.

Well, I'm not High Gov, so I wasn't able to see what was happening at "The Summit", but I was very happy that I was able to do a little side diplomacy, minor though it may have been. I think Dave might be the first to admit that he made some mistakes, I know I did. Hopefully we'll do the diplomacy better next time around.

Maybe, I'm in a Delta Alliance after all, but I think that'll be on Discord only :-p.

I'd like to thank Dave and zig both, for letting me be me. I may not do things the conventional way, and I'm the first to admit that I make mistakes sometimes, but I have my moments :-).