Opinion Poll: S.J. Res. 34 (ISPs selling browser history)

[WISD0MTREE]

 

(Not at all, but they should have the same background checks as you'd see at an FFL)

 

Because ignoring the issue is pretty much just getting us into Guinness for mass killings.

 

If only they had a law with which to punish those people, like requiring a background check before purchase/trade.

Focusing on forcing universal background checks distracts from a system that would actually work: open NICS to the public. Under a system Senator Tom Coburn proposed, a buyer would enter information you would see on a 4473 into a website. The website would state if the buyer could proceed and generate a code. The seller could enter the name and code in order to verify, and then sell the firearm legally. That way, privacy is respected. Care to guess how many "common sense" groups called that outrageous? 

 

For every one mass shooter, there are millions of responsible, law-abiding gun owners who will never do anything slightly illegal or nefarious with their guns. Whatever solution you come up with, you’ll have to find a way that doesn’t infringe on their Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. (That title would more likely go to the Indian government in the Kashmir Valley, though.) 

 

You only fill out a 4473 if you are buying from a FFL dealer. So, background checks were required before the purchase. 

[ComradeMilton]

Focusing on forcing universal background checks distracts from a system that would actually work: open NICS to the public. Under a system Senator Tom Coburn proposed, a buyer would enter information you would see on a 4473 into a website. The website would state if the buyer could proceed and generate a code. The seller could enter the name and code in order to verify, and then sell the firearm legally. That way, privacy is respected. Care to guess how many "common sense" groups called that outrageous? I would. That's a terrible idea.

 

For every one mass shooter, there are millions of responsible, law-abiding gun owners who will never do anything slightly illegal or nefarious with their guns. And should sail right through the background checks. Whatever solution you come up with, you’ll have to find a way that doesn’t infringe on their Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.the Supreme Court's already in  favor of this. If they're not permitted to buy they're not getting them here.

 

You only fill out a 4473 if you are buying from a FFL dealer. So, background checks were required before the purchase. Now, here, you fill out the 447. and do the call even as a private party. Go democracy.

[WISD0MTREE]

 

I would. That's a terrible idea.

 

And should sail right through the background checks. 

 

Now, here, you fill out the 447. and do the call even as a private party. Go democracy.

You could discuss why you think it is and stuff. This is a discussion forum after all.   Sound familiar? 

 

If Canada is any guide, centralized registration of guns doesn’t work. They shut down a decade-old Long Gun Registry (rifles & shotguns) when it turned out they were spending millions on a hopelessly inaccurate system that according to the police "never helped solve or prevent a single crime." Without a central registry, universal background checks are unenforceable. 

 

Sucks for you. 

[ComradeMilton]

You could discuss why you think it is and stuff. This is a discussion forum after all.   Sound familiar? 

 

If Canada is any guide, centralized registration of guns doesn’t work. They shut down a decade-old Long Gun Registry (rifles & shotguns) when it turned out they were spending millions on a hopelessly inaccurate system that according to the police "never helped solve or prevent a single crime." Without a central registry, universal background checks are unenforceable. They're enforceable; they should prevent felons, the mentally ill and other prohibited groups from successfully buying guns this way.  We'd do better sending one round through every firearm purchased for an enormous library to help identify whose gun did something and whose did not.

 

Sucks for you, It still takes like maybe five minutes to do and prevents prohibited persons from buying them via this method.

[WISD0MTREE]

 

We'd do better sending one round through every firearm purchased for an enormous library to help identify whose gun did something and whose did not.

 

They're enforceable; they should prevent felons, the mentally ill and other prohibited groups from successfully buying guns this way.

It still takes like maybe five minutes to do and prevents prohibited persons from buying them via this method.

This has been tried at various times, like in New York and Maryland. However, after 15 years, millions of dollars, and 300,000 bullet casings (one for each new gun sold in Maryland), they abandoned it because they could never get the technology to work right. Neither helped solve any crimes, ever. Gun owners disliked the program for various reasons, one being that once you fire a round through a new gun, it loses value. 

 

Like the Orlando attacker (June 12), the UCLA gunman (June 1), the San Bernardino attackers (December 2, 2015), the Colorado Springs attacker (October 31, 2015), the Umpqua Community College attacker (October 1, 2015), Alison Parker’s attacker (August 26, 2015), the Lafayette movie theater attacker (July 23, 2015), the Chattanooga attacker (July 16, 2015), the alleged Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal attacker (Jun 17, 2015), the Muhammad Carton Contest attackers (May 3, 2014), the Las Vegas cop killers (June 9, 2015), the Santa Barbara attacker (May 23, 2014), the Fort Hood attacker (April 2, 2014), the Arapahoe High School attacker (December 13, 2013), the D.C. Navy Yard attacker (September 16, 2013), the Aurora movie theater attacker (July 20, 2012), Gabby Giffords’s attacker (January 8, 2011), the Fort Hood attacker (November 5, 2009), the Virginia Tech attacker (April 16, 2007), the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle attacker (July 28, 2016)? All of these people passed background checks because they didn't have a criminal history. Background checks aren't the end-all solution you seem to think they are. 

[ComradeMilton]

This has been tried at various times, like in New York and Maryland. Don't forget West Germany; they did law enforcement too. And it wasn't casings, it was the rounds themselves. However, after 15 years, millions of dollars, and 300,000 bullet casings (one for each new gun sold in Maryland), they abandoned it because they could never get the technology to work right. Forty years difference. We can also do DNA and a number of other things we couldn't do then, including the latent pattern each barrel leaves custom imprints upon. Gun owners disliked the program for various reasons, one being that once you fire a round through a new gun, it loses value. The entirety of the program is picking up a bullet or two from each gun firing exactly as it does at any other time.

 

Like the Orlando attacker (June 12), the UCLA gunman (June 1), the San Bernardino attackers (December 2, 2015), the Colorado Springs attacker (October 31, 2015), the Umpqua Community College attacker (October 1, 2015), Alison Parker’s attacker (August 26, 2015), the Lafayette movie theater attacker (July 23, 2015), the Chattanooga attacker (July 16, 2015), the alleged Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal attacker (Jun 17, 2015), the Muhammad Carton Contest attackers (May 3, 2014), the Las Vegas cop killers (June 9, 2015), the Santa Barbara attacker (May 23, 2014), the Fort Hood attacker (April 2, 2014), the Arapahoe High School attacker (December 13, 2013), the D.C. Navy Yard attacker (September 16, 2013), the Aurora movie theater attacker (July 20, 2012), Gabby Giffords’s attacker (January 8, 2011), the Fort Hood attacker (November 5, 2009), the Virginia Tech attacker (April 16, 2007), the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle attacker (July 28, 2016)? All of these people passed background checks because they didn't have a criminal history. Background checks aren't the end-all solution you seem to think they are. If his medical program had reported as required he'd be right onto the appropriate list and unable to get a gun legally.

[WISD0MTREE]

 

Don't forget West Germany; they did law enforcement too. And it wasn't casings, it was the rounds themselves.

 

Forty years difference.

 

We can also do DNA and a number of other things we couldn't do then,

 

including the latent pattern each barrel leaves custom imprints upon. 

 

The entirety of the program is picking up a bullet or two from each gun firing exactly as it does at any other time.

 

If his medical program had reported as required he'd be right onto the appropriate list and unable to get a gun legally.

 

Wouldn't solve the problem in MD. 

From the article: "There have been 26 instances in the past 15 years in which Maryland's cache of spent casings helped investigators in some fashion, but in each case investigators already knew the gun for which they were looking, state police said." 

 

If you read the article, you would've seen that it was ended in 2015. I didn't know it was 2055. Cool, now I can get a senior discount at gun shows. Saves me a solid $1. 

 

...Yes. They do perform DNA tests on guns found at crime scenes. What's your point? 

 

Again, wouldn't solve the problem in MD.

From the article: "There have been 26 instances in the past 15 years in which Maryland's cache of spent casings helped investigators in some fashion, but in each case investigators already knew the gun for which they were looking, state police said."

 

There are guns which are collectible. 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/631632260

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/632985488

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/633395241

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/632997856

Shooting a shot out of them may lessen their value. 

 

 

HIPAA regulations prevent people’s medical records from being accessed by the government due to privacy concerns. This prohibition is something the left-wing ACLU supports. The fact that both conservatives and liberals are wary points to the fact that changes to privacy laws are complex and controversial. Any rational person agrees that the mentally ill should not be able to legally purchase firearms. But just try to share that data with the FBI and see how many attorneys come out of the woodwork. 

[ComradeMilton]

Wouldn't solve the problem in MD. Turns out we have 49 other states, several territories and a federal district in the United States.  Using the casing is stupid.

 

I didn't know it was 2055. Cool, now I can get a senior discount at gun shows. And, depending on the state you can get one even with more safely measures against private sellers.  Saves me a solid $1. You actually can do this. Join AARP. They don't have age restrictions.

 

...Yes. They do perform DNA tests on guns found at crime scenes. What's your point? Identifying the markings on file with the rounds fired would provide a fingerprint of the firearm being sought as well. Worked marvelously with far more primitive resources in West Germany than modern Germany possesses and works very well in their investigations.

 

Again, wouldn't solve the problem in MD. We have a lot more to worry about than just Maryland.

From the article: "There have been 26 instances in the past 15 years in which Maryland's cache of spent casings helped investigators in some fashion, but in each case investigators already knew the gun for which they were looking, state police said."

 

There are guns which are collectible. 

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/631632260

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/632985488

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/633395241

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/632997856

Shooting a shot out of them may lessen their value. That's a risk you'll have to take if you want something like that. Pity, but fewer dead people is the cost.

, 

HIPAA regulations prevent people’s medical records from being accessed by the government due to privacy concerns. It actually isn't much to do with the government and much more to do with private groups to other private groups or individuals. This prohibition is something the left-wing ACLU supports. The fact that both conservatives and liberals are wary points to the fact that changes to privacy laws are complex and controversial. Any rational person agrees that the mentally ill should not be able to legally purchase firearms. But just try to share that data with the FBI and see how many attorneys come out of the woodwork. None. That's a pretty silly opinion to hold. They just get denied until they go to a gunshow and have a private seller give them what whatever they need to do the latest mass shooting without a background check or form. This is not medical data and has no protections within HIPAA or any other legislation.

[ComradeMilton]

You could discuss why you think it is and stuff. This is a discussion forum after all.   Sound familiar? 

 

If Canada is any guide, centralized registration of guns doesn’t work. They shut down a decade-old Long Gun Registry (rifles & shotguns) when it turned out they were spending millions on a hopelessly inaccurate system that according to the police "never helped solve or prevent a single crime." Without a central registry, universal background checks are Good idea for the next election cycle. Thanks! . 

 

Sucks for you. Why would we do anything but a broad, centralized database of the data?

[ComradeMilton]

Focusing on forcing universal background checks distracts from a system that would actually work: open NICS to the public. Under a system Senator Tom Coburn proposed, a buyer would enter information you would see on a 4473 into a website. The website would state if the buyer could proceed and generate a code. The seller could enter the name and code in order to verify, and then sell the firearm legally. That way, privacy is respected. Care to guess how many "common sense" groups called that outrageous? Given "common sense" is stupid and varies almost completely from one person to another I'd guess quite a few.

 

For every one mass shooter, there are millions of responsible, law-abiding gun owners who will never do anything slightly illegal or nefarious with their guns. Whatever solution you come up with, you’ll have to find a way that doesn’t infringe on their Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. (That title would more likely go to the Indian government in the Kashmir Valley, though.) First things first: Cite the amendment in full, not obscuring half of it.

 

You only fill out a 4473 if you are buying from a FFL dealer. So, background checks were required before the purchase from private dealers (No, they weren't, that's the loophole we're discussing) gunshow loophole. Non-FFLs don't even have the information on how to start doing background checks, let alone access to the system or a requirement to do so before this law was passed here.

[WISD0MTREE]

 

Turns out we have 49 other states, several territories and a federal district in the United States. 

 

You actually can do this. Join AARP. They don't have age restrictions.

 

Identifying the markings on file with the rounds fired would provide a fingerprint of the firearm being sought as well. Worked marvelously with far more primitive resources in West Germany than modern Germany possesses and works very well in their investigations.

 

We have a lot more to worry about than just Maryland.

 

That's a risk you'll have to take if you want something like that. Pity, but fewer dead people is the cost.

, 

That's a pretty silly opinion to hold. They just get denied until they go to a gunshow and have a private seller give them what whatever they need to do the latest mass shooting without a background check or form. This is not medical data and has no protections within HIPAA or any other legislation.

 

Didn't work for New York either. What makes you think it will work in the other states? 

 

False. You need to be 50 for an AARP membership. 

 

Can you provide a citation? 

 

What makes you think it will work in the other states?

 

Again, from the article. 

"There have been 26 instances in the past 15 years in which Maryland's cache of spent casings helped investigators in some fashion, but in each case investigators already knew the gun for which they were looking, state police said."

You're proposing something that police don't use because it doesn't help. 

 

From your post above: "If his medical program had reported as required"

Last I checked, information from a medical program is medical. 

 

 

Good idea for the next election cycle. Thanks! . 

 

Why would we do anything but a broad, centralized database of the data?

 

If Canada is any guide, centralized registration of guns doesn’t work. They shut down a decade-old Long Gun Registry (rifles & shotguns) when it turned out they were spending millions on a hopelessly inaccurate system that according to the police "never helped solve or prevent a single crime."

 

Centralized registries of firearms are a non-starter. The last thing I want is for some database to get hacked and all information about the guns I own leaked to the internet for thieves and angry anti-gunners to read. Thieves have said that having a map of where guns are located is like gold. The media has already demonstrated it can’t be responsible with such information, as shown when the Journal-News published a map of firearm owners in Westchester County. What would make the government more responsible? 

 

 

First things first: Cite the amendment in full, not obscuring half of it.

 

(No, they weren't, that's the loophole we're discussing) gunshow loophole. Non-FFLs don't even have the information on how to start doing background checks, let alone access to the system or a requirement to do so before this law was passed here.

 

Any honest person who is not illiterate in English and who is intelligent enough to comprehend some basic logic can see that "a well regulated militia" was the motive stated in the Constitution, but the operative right is clearly the second part of the amendment. "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." The intended meaning is all over the pages of history leading up to the amendment.

 

Is English your second language? 

In 2010 alone, 76,142 fraudulent ATF Form 4473 applications were submitted. Only 4,732 of these cases were referred to law enforcement agencies, and less than 62 of those resulted in arrest and prosecution. Only 13 were found guilty or plead guilty. That means slightly under one-tenth of 1% of those illegally attempting to purchase a firearm from a licensed gun seller were even charged with a crime, let alone prosecuted for it.

I stated that of the 76,142 fraudulent 4473s, only 62 people were persecuted. Therefore, background checks are inefficient. You stated that the reason for this was the "gunshow loophole." Private sales don't use a 4473, so a private sale can't contribute to that number. 

[Ayayay]

False. You need to be 50 for an AARP membership. 

False. You can join the AARP at any age and get access to all their discounts (but not services like their insurance)

 

Anyways this convo is p stupid.

 

 

 

Going back to the topic at hand, why don't we all start a kickstarter to buy our congressmens internet history? At the very least we can target their family members (spouses/children) and dump damaging info on the net of them.

[WISD0MTREE]

False. You can join the AARP at any age and get access to all their discounts (but not services like their insurance)

http://www.aarp.org/members/join-aarp-membership/

 

Anyone 50 or over can get all the great benefits of membership in AARP and pay just $12 for your first year with auto-renew.

Edited April 3, 2017 by WISD0MTREE

[Ayayay]

http://www.aarp.org/members/join-aarp-membership/

http://savingsbeagle.com/aarp-savings-no-matter-age/

 

What a nub

 

I know people IRL that are 20 with associate membership cards

[WISD0MTREE]

http://savingsbeagle.com/aarp-savings-no-matter-age/

 

What a nub

 

I know people IRL that are 20 with associate membership cards

Oh shit. Time to become an AARP member. 

[Ayayay]

Oh shit. Time to become an AARP member. 

Not really worth it unless you go on vacations a lot and some people might argue it or something

[ComradeMilton]

Being a part of the most powerful lobby in the US is pretty helpful, though.