Guns in America(again sorry)

[Kemal Ergenekon]

The D.C. Chief of Police DC Cathy Lanier disagrees with you. According to her, times have changed:

“What we tell them is the facts of the matter is that most active shooters kill most of the victims in 10 minutes or less, and the best police department in the country's going to be about a five-to-seven minute response ... I always say if you can get out, getting out's your first option, your best option. If you're in a position to try and take the gunman down, to take the gunman out, it's the best option for saving lives before police can get there. And that's- you know, that's kind of counterintuitive to what cops always tell people, right? We always tell people, "Don't-- you know, don't take action. Call 911. Don't intervene in the robbery"- you know- you know- we've never told people, "Take action." It's a different- this is a different scenario ... You can be prepared and you can have a society that is resilient and alert and conscientious and safer without scaring people ... If you educate people on actions they can take to reduce their risk, then you can save some lives. And I think it's irresponsible for us not to do that ... That's not an option anymore.†

 

 

The quote you gave says literally nothing about making sure no one has guns. If we are going to post completely unrelated things in response to any argument, here is a sonnet for you:

 

Then hate me when thou wilt, if ever, now,

Now while the world is bent my deeds to cross,

join with the spite of fortune, make me bow,

And do not drop in for an after-loss:

Ah do not, when my heart hath 'scaped this sorrow,

Come in the rearward of a conquered woe,

Give not a windy night a rainy morrow,

To linger out a purposed overthrow.

If thou wilt leave me, do not leave me last,

When other petty griefs have done their spite,

But in the onset come, so shall I taste

At first the very worst of fortune's might.

And other strains of woe, which now seem woe,

Compared with loss of thee, will not seem so.

[SoS]

Eh, it's political anyhow. They use knives and pointy sticks in Britain to make a political point. In the US, they use guns to make their point.

 

I am admittedly paranoid, but that's where I stand. But, the politics of this is the issue. People are killed everyday, but a massacre can't be ignored. A knife attack in London causes them to station cops armed with asault rifles on the streets. There are long term UN agendas to rid nations of all their harmful ways. Do you think all the anti-smoking shit was spontaneous? No, that too is a UN resolution at work. Just like the UN resolution to rid nations of guns.

[Doktor Avalanche]

That's a blog, not a scholarly article.

 

And it's laughable, in that it claims correlation is causation. Instead of looking at levels, it looks at growth rates, as if it would fix the issue of causality. It does not.

It is actually a statistical think tank in Washington D.C. that gets hired by the current Presidential Office for research all the damn time.

[Kemal Ergenekon]

It is actually a statistical think tank in Washington D.C. that gets hired by the current Presidential Office for research all the damn time.

 

You linked a blog piece. Does not matter whether it is published on a biased think tank by a failed economist at University of Michigan-Flint whose academic publication record I cannot even find.

[WISD0MTREE]

The quote you gave says literally nothing about making sure no one has guns. If we are going to post completely unrelated things in response to any argument, here is a sonnet for you:

Are you saying that you can't take down a gunman with a gun? Here are some occasions when an armed civilian stopped what probably would have turned into a mass shooting:

Conyers, Ga., May 31, 2015: A permit holder was walking by a store when he heard shots ring out. Two people were killed. The permit holder started firing, and the killer ran out of the store. Rockdale County Sheriff Eric Levett said: “I believe that if Mr. Scott did not return fire at the suspect, then more of those customers would have [been] hit by a gun[shot] . . . . So, in my opinion he saved other lives in that store.â€

Chicago, April 2015: An Uber driver who had just dropped off a fare “shot and wounded a gunman [Everardo Custodio] who opened fire on a crowd of people.†Assistant State’s Attorney Barry Quinn praised the driver for “acting in self-defense and in the defense of others.â€

Philadelphia, Pa., March 2015: A permit holder was walking by a barber shop when he heard shots fired. He quickly ran into the shop and shot the gunman to death. Police Captain Frank Llewellyn said, “I guess he saved a lot of people in there.â€

Darby, Pa., July 2014: Convicted felon Richard Plotts killed a hospital caseworker and shot the psychiatrist that he was scheduled to meet with. Fortunately, the psychiatrist was a concealed-handgun permit holder and was able to critically wound Plotts. Plotts was still carrying 39 bullets and could have shot many other people.

Chicago, July 2014: Three gang members fired on four people who had just left a party. Fortunately, one of these four was a military serviceman with a concealed-handgun permit. He was able to return fire and wound the main attacker while keeping the others at bay. The UK’s Daily Mail reported, “The night might have had a very different outcome had the incident occurred a year earlier [before Illinois’s concealed-handgun law was passed].â€

Plymouth, Pa., September 2012: William Allabaugh critically wounded one man inside a restaurant and murdered a second man on the street outside. Luzerne County Assistant District Attorney Jarrett Ferentino said that without the concealed-handgun permit holder who wounded Allabaugh, “we believe that it could have been much worse that night.â€

Spartanburg, S.C., March 2012: Armed with a shotgun, Jesse Gates kicked in a door to his church. Concealed-carry permit holder Aaron Guyton drew his gun and held Gates at gunpoint, enabling other parishioners to disarm Gates. Spartanburg County Sheriff Chuck Wright called the churchgoers heroes. Though Gates was stopped before anyone was harmed, he was still charged with one count of kidnapping and three counts of pointing and presenting a firearm.

Edited August 5, 2016 by WISD0MTREE

[Linus Vulp]

Are you saying that you can't take down a gunman with a gun? 

No, he simply says that the arguments of the pro-guns-lobby are ridiculous.

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Are you saying that you can't take down a gunman with a gun? 

 

No. I say no such thing.

 

I say

 

1) that if no one has guns, no one has to take down gunmen.

2) if we need gunmen to take other gunmen down, we have the police and if not sufficient, the army

[Frank Todd]

Lol the can of worms has been opened here.

[Doktor Avalanche]

No. I say no such thing.

 

I say

 

1) that if no one has guns, no one has to take down gunmen.

2) if we need gunmen to take other gunmen down, we have the police and if not sufficient, the army

Virtually most shootings/violent crimes take place in under ten minutes.

The fastest Police districts respond in average seven to twelve minutes to a shooting/violent crime.

Where the State removes guns from society, a Black Market always fills the void. The notion that removing guns from society will fix the issues of violent crime is a failed argument. it will also make a lot of people into criminals, especially here in the US. I would hate to see the first attempts by the State to remove guns from the citizenry, especially here in Wisconsin.

[Frank Todd]

No. I say no such thing.

 

I say

 

1) that if no one has guns, no one has to take down gunmen.

2) if we need gunmen to take other gunmen down, we have the police and if not sufficient, the army

I'm alll for this line of thinking... But a counter to this would be that criminals don't follow laws (I.E: Drugs are illegal, criminals still use and sell drugs).

And then it gets into a whole problem of taking guns away from peeps who don't use them in an illicit way, blah blah blah.

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Virtually most shootings/violent crimes take place in under ten minutes.

The fastest Police districts respond in average seven to twelve minutes to a shooting/violent crime.

Where the State removes guns from society, a Black Market always fills the void. The notion that removing guns from society will fix the issues of violent crime is a failed argument. it will also make a lot of people into criminals, especially here in the US. I would hate to see the first attempts by the State to remove guns from the citizenry, especially here in Wisconsin.

 

"Good people with guns" other than specially trained people (i.e. police) rarely help rather than hurt.

 

Police eventually respond, punishing the criminal, thus preventing many crimes from being realized just by that.

 

"Where the State removes guns from society, a Black Market always fills the void." -> numbers friend. It matters to what extent the void is filled. Criminals will have a tad more difficult time obtaining a gun in an illegal market as opposed to buying it at Walmarts.

[SoS]

Virtually most shootings/violent crimes take place in under ten minutes.

The fastest Police districts respond in average seven to twelve minutes to a shooting/violent crime.

Where the State removes guns from society, a Black Market always fills the void. The notion that removing guns from society will fix the issues of violent crime is a failed argument. it will also make a lot of people into criminals, especially here in the US. I would hate to see the first attempts by the State to remove guns from the citizenry, especially here in Wisconsin.

Then, why are these British massacres using kitchen knives? Never once a black market gun?

[Doktor Avalanche]

 

"Where the State removes guns from society, a Black Market always fills the void." -> numbers friend. It matters to what extent the void is filled. Criminals will have a tad more difficult time obtaining a gun in an illegal market as opposed to buying it at Walmarts.

Where is the evidence for your claim?

Havocscope Arms Trafficking-Data for Illegal Arms Trade

 

 

Then, why are these British massacres using kitchen knives? Never once a black market gun?

I admit the gun violence in England alone is low, even only two reported in a year sometimes. However most murders occur in the spur of the moment and are not committed by people intending to kill. Murder most of the time is unintentional. My source is one of my college psychology courses.

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Where is the evidence for your claim?

Havocscope Arms Trafficking-Data for Illegal Arms Trade

 

Proof that buying something illegally is more difficult/costly than if it were completely legal and occurred in a competitive market? A brain. That's what I used.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Proof that buying something illegally is more difficult/costly than if it were completely legal and occurred in a competitive market? A brain. That's what I used.

I do not even live in England but I know exactly where to buy a handgun for under Â£200. It is not difficult to find, nor is it extremely priced. Seriously? Do  you think the whole world of the Black Market is like Lord of War or something?

[Laconia]

I'm a little late to the discussion, but I'll just throw this out there:

 

It's not about personal defense, it's not about shooting as a hobby...it's about the fact that, according to our Constitution, we have the RIGHT to own and carry firearms. And we don't generally give back our rights once we have them, and we don't like people trying to take away those rights. That's really all it boils down to. Some people carry for protection (or because they're cowards, as someone else said), some people own guns for hunting to put food on their table, some people own guns because they like to go to the range and shoot them for fun. All of those gun owners own guns because THEY CAN.

 

And the fact is, despite what people may want to think, we have so many guns in circulation now, registered and unregistered (you don't have to register rifles and shotguns for example), that the government will NEVER be able to take them away from the citizens. Ever.

 

So the GOP/NRA/Ultra-Conservative rightwingers are fearmongering to their base, and the Ultra-Liberal/Hippy/Peacenick leftwingers are pandering to theirs, and none of the Politicians on either side actually believe they're going to be able to fundamentally change the Constitution to overrule the 2nd Amendment.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Laconia