Phoenyx

I've now spoken to Partisan via DMs in Discord. I've revealed a lot. I can't speak that well about past wars- I wasn't involved in them. But when it comes to Swamp in this one, I can speak. Here's a log that will put anything Sphinx has said to shame: ** They were fed nonsense information from somebody with a long history of igniting fires. I run the alliance military and currently Swamp military. There were no plans to attack them. Kind of think I would be in the know about plans like that. ** There you have it. It wasn't just a "top official" in swamp as I've been stating in the past. It was top dog for Swamp military affairs period.

They were at least responding to wars that had already happened. I think that's a lot different than basing a war entirely on a rumour that they were going to get attacked.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said above. I must admit I'm afraid you might in fact bite, lol :-p. But peace is too important to let that get in my way. You may well be right. But I'll push as hard as I can to end it. I still remember all those happy Knight Radiant ads, we need those back ASAP ;-). And let's not forget that ducks actually like swamps of the wooded variety...

Don't know about them Partisan, but I think you and I are getting there. Why can't we work together to try to end this war?

I keep on going over all of this in my head and I keep on thinking that a lot of people here are focusing on the wrong thing. I think the biggest thing may not be whether or not a treaty is paperless, but whether or not an Alliance/other group is trustworthy and/or seen to be a threat to the interests of others. I am beginning to become more confident on my take as to what happened here- A lot of spheres came to think that Quack had become too powerful and too aggressive. So they made a paperless deal that if Quack were to attack another sphere again, they'd retaliate together. On the other hand, it looks like Quack (or a portion thereof) acted on a false rumour that they were going to get attacked. Perhaps Sphinx dreamed that it would happen, but from everything I've seen, it wasn't going to happen. Perhaps near the end he came to the conclusion that -he- was going to get dogpiled and so left the game for a year. But while he may have decided that it was best to leave rather than get attacked for the forseeable future, he apparently succeeded in his goal of getting Quack into a nasty fight. So, to the old question- who benefits from this war? Quack? I think not. Swamp/Rose/Grumpy/etc? Again, not seeing it. It looks like the whole thing started with a rumour. If this is the case, I think the best thing to do would be for Quack to say, sorry, looks like we got fooled by a false rumour, can we end this now? I think that might be more than enough to make it so.

I think you've nailed it. I think at this point, Partisan may be having doubts. It's like a guy playing poker- he was waiting for the flush on the river. Some piece of evidence that is flushed out into the open with the war or something. It didn't happen. So now, I think he may be trying to bluff his way through this. Problem is, people are calling him on the logs and, well, he can't deliver- he didn't get that card he was hoping for. He may figure that the best he can do is draw this out as long as possible and hope everyone else folds before he has to reveal that his hand didn't pan. In the back of his mind, he may be thinking, was this what Sphinx had wanted all along? To get him into a war he couldn't win? Sphinx won't be feeling any pain for a year. I'm thinking the best course of action for him may be to just admit that he acted on dubious information and start ending this war.

I admit that does sound funny :-p. However, the CB for the Swamp war with TCW was a bit more complicated than that. They were responding to wars already fought, not to rumours of one heading their way. Specifically: ** 1) tCW and TEst having nations and micro alliances hit our bloc by proxy wars throughout the NAP. What are you doing in our swamp? 2) Denying ghosting by proxies. This is the part where you run away! 3) Once upon a time, tCW attacking and dragging alliances back into the last war, after initially fighting on their side. Sometimes, things are more than they appear. The Swamp has had war thrust upon us and formally declares military action against The Commonwealth, Terminus Est, and protectorates thereof who engage; and, will bring the conflict to a successful resolution. ** Was any of this happening before you declared war on TcW and Hedge? I will say though, it strikes me as interesting that both Swamp and you guys attacked TcW. Clearly, a fair amount must have happened between these 2 attacks for Swamp to switch from attacking TcW to defending it.

I don't see what why there can't still be paper treaties. It's just that I think that paperless ones are probably here to stay as well. As to speaking freely, almost nothing can stop someone who is determined enough to do that- this is a game after all, no one's actually dying for speaking out, though they may be risking their pixels. Clearly, freedom of speech works better in these games if your nation is small and thus any damage taken not so difficult to repair. I think that people are overlooking something -very- important. Whether treaties are on paper or paperless, they are formed because the people involved believe they will benefit from them. Rightly or wrongly, a lot of spheres believed that Quack was a threat to them and so a group of them decided that the next time Quack attacked one of them, they'd band together. Now some time has passed and I imagine it won't be too long before this global war starts winding down, if that hasn't started already. I think it's now been firmly established that if enough spheres get together, they can take on Quack, thus potentially lessening the old "First, they came for..." fear.

I may be new, but I'm not -that- new, lol :-p. I think I was trying to get people's attention away from the politics and more into the economics. But you're definitely right, wars aren't only fought for profit- and the profit tends to go to those producing the weapons, not those fighting the wars anyway. I definitely think that there is a -lot- of misunderstanding here, but I completely agree, after this war, I sincerely doubt everyone will feel all warm and cuddly with each other, lol :-p. In fact, I strongly suspect that the fact that the 2 groups weren't all warm and cuddly to begin with played a major role in things getting started. As to being around in August, no- I started playing on September 9th. So I asked someone who'd been there. He told me that, yes, Swamp had declared, but based on the DoW, it looks like it was actually a pretty defensive war dec. It's here for those who haven't seen it: Anyway, a little song that I think fits the situation...

I clearly fell into that one :-p. As to the real explanation, though, it seems pretty simple- Rose and others felt that no one Coalition could handle you alone so they agreed to band together in case you attacked one or more of them. Quack attacked and the rest is history. My apologies, Grumpy then :-). Anyway, thanks for clarifying Grumpy's Coalition affiliation.

I was actually only removed from my first Alliance, The Fighting Pacifists, when it became clear that we wouldn't be able to reach an agreement in regards to my communications in these forums. I'd like to point out that there was actually some dissent within TFP as to whether I should be removed, but clearly the side that thought I should be won out. Pretty much as soon as I was removed from TFP, my current Swamp Alliance, FSR, told me I could take refuge with them, at least temporarily, as a player without an Alliance generally doesn't do well. I think that was very nice of them. After that, I was invited to join the Rose Alliance. I suspected that I might have the same issues I had with TFP- it's the strongest Alliance in the game after all, and so it stands to reason that security could be tight. However, I really liked Vexz' style of writing, as well as another Rose member whose name escapes me- he wrote a fictional story as to how Rose entered the fray. I initially thought all his metaphors were based on something real, but he later denied it. Still, some of the things he said do seem to have some basis in things that actually happened and it was nice to have some humour on these issues. I must say that I have never seen another Alliance with such an advanced organizational structure as well, and their memes were hilarious :-p. I was only there briefly, but I'm really going to miss that. Anyway, it soon became apparent that my forum diplomacy was becoming an issue with them. The one thing they mentioned was that they respected Boyce- I had no idea who he was and suspected his credibility. However, it seems a lot of people don't rate Sphinx in nearly the same way. Anyway, with Rose, I was given the choice to do things their way or find another Alliance and so I chose the latter and returned to FSR. It is clearly a small Alliance, but it is still in the Swamp umbrella, which I think should be enough protection for me. Anyway, you still haven't established that you were going to be stricken. All we have is Sphinx saying that there were plans a foot- I can't remember the exact quote, but I remember him mentioning the Swamp. Even if he actually believed what he was saying, it doesn't make it true. Did he even talk to someone in the Swamp himself or was he relying on the words of someone who claimed to have talked to someone in the Swamp? It seems that the thing that is most brought up is an ad of Grumpy Old Bastards' leader Ronny saying that they had said that they wouldn't even consider hitting Quack if Rose didn't hit. I think that GOB is in the Swamp, so perhaps this is the source of it all? But the thing is, that quote doesn't explain whether he meant it defensively or offensively. Even if he meant it offensively, I know that Ronny has since said that while there was some talk about hitting Quack, it never went anywhere. So perhaps this is the source of Sphinx' notion that the Swamp was going to attack? An idea that never went anywhere? I really wish that the person I talked to in the Swamp would be ok with me revealing who they are. Because they made it clear that not only had they not even -heard- of this notion of attacking Quack, but that if they had, they would have opposed it with every fiber of their being, because they firmly believed that it would have been a bloodbath for their Alliance.

I think we can agree that it all depends on whether any significant force was truly going to attack Quack. Maybe Sphinx thought about it, but would his Alliance have followed through with it, not sure. Anyway, if they'd attacked Quack first, I think we can agree that they would now be in a load of trouble. If it's true that any plans to attack quack were feeble to non existent in most non Quack sectors, then from everyone's perspective, including Quack's, they should never have attacked the Commonwealth and Hedge. It didn't benefit them and it didn't benefit anyone else either. Real wars (as opposed to raids) are generally a losing game in terms of resources for anyone actually fighting in them. So here's to hoping that some feelers are going out towards peace.

Slight problem here is that Swamp would never have gotten involved if Quack (or a part of anyway) didn't first attack HM and tCW. From everything I have read, a -lot- of people were feeling that there had to be a way to defend against Quack and what people came up with is that a -defensive- Coalition had to be formed in order to make that happen. So it happened. As Grumpy just pointed out, there was a little talk about going after Quack, but it never went anywhere. What did go somewhere was the fear that if a proper defensive Coalition wasn't created, Quack would just roll over whoever they wanted. So the defensive Coalition was put in place. Then Quack attacked and, well, you get what we have here. This isn't the end of the story, though. I for one just want this global war to end. What can I say, I started out in The Fighting Pacifists for a reason and while I'm no longer there, I'm still in the Swamp and from everything I've seen about them, they are all about defense, not offense. Now, let's consider- you have a bunch of pacifist types who feel backed up in a corner. Ofcourse they'll fight. You know what they'd much rather do though? Stop fighting. There's a reason Swamp looks so grumpy- they don't fight for the glory, they fight when it seems they have no other alternative. Why not reach out a little in the direction of peace?

Fine, fine, you want to believe that it's all an elaborate plan, you can do that. But it's not just this Swamp official who's said this. Everything I've seen while in Swamp Alliances (which is most of the 2 months I've been playing) suggests a very defensive network and absolutely no interest in becoming an offensive one. They are all about building up their armies to max if they feel like there may be an imminent attack on them or their allies but they are content to then sit on those maxed armies until they feel that either the threat has passed or they are attacked. I remember at first objecting to building up my armies so much, but I certainly wasn't objecting when it came time to fight in this global war, especially when some of my opponents were also around maxed as well. Ofcourse, I decided to go the extra mile- to not just fight, but find out how all of this started. Still on that journey, but while I'm still fuzzy on some particular details, one thing seems to keep on becoming clearer- there was never any huge force getting ready to attack Quack before some in Quack attacked Hedge and Commonwealth. A small force thinking about it? Possibly, but nothing that would have caused Quack more than a minor irritation and massive losses for said force. After that happened though, defensive networks were triggered and that's what's happening now. Anyway, from what I have seen, wars don't benefit the people who are actually fighting them (war profiteers are another matter). So while I imagine we could continue debating who started this war for quite a long time, wouldn't it make more sense to see how we can end it?

Actually, that log wasn't a public one. It was one between him and me alone and it happened after I'd been removed from TFP. It definitely wasn't meant for public consumption. He made it clear that he didn't want any of his words shared. Personally, I just found it too frustrating though. The other parties are talking here, Rose, Quack, but where's Swamp? Nowhere to be found, at least since I joined the conversation. This fellow explicitly said that he feels it's best not to talk here but I strongly disagree with that. So I decided to share it.

It just seems to me like you're confusing a defensive mutual defense pact against Quack for an offensive coalition against Quack. I can understand why based on Boyce's conversation with Sphynx, but at least when it comes to Swamp, I have a log of my own that strongly suggests that Swamp would never have attacked Quack first. I posted it around here somewhere too.

Agreed. I think anyone who is in favour of the truth being easier to decipher wants to see them at this point.

Agreed, let's see those logs 🙂

When you say "in three minutes", I think we need to break it down a bit. First of all, what Alliances allegedly countered in 3 minutes and what evidence is there that this happened? Another thing I'm thinking, it's possible that someone in Hedge and/or TCW got advanced warning from someone on the inside, which would make their quick response more understandable.

Is it not possible that the Coalition came about because you stomped first?

Nice.

Made me laugh :-p. I'm just a little guy in The Fighting Pacifists, an Alliance in SWAMP. Knights Radiant seems like a decent Alliance. I've found many of the Knights Radiant ads funny. I know Politics and War has a lot of war in it, but I'm personally in favour of diplomacy. So if you and others would help educate me as to how this all started and most importantly, how we can end this, would be appreciated.