Communism

[LostWorld]

I wouldn t call it capitalism Ivan. There was a long period of transitioning to free markets so I wouldn t call what happened there a byproduct of capitalism.

 

Sometimes I am thiknig why did we have so different transitions in former south-east communist ussr states and on the other hand the baltic states. Probably there's a people cultre here after all or other regional variables.

 

Ukraine will always remain important for Europe. During WW2 it was used as a food supply base for the german eastern lines. It has amongst the most fertile soils in Europe(in the world maybe?). And we are heading toward a future where food will literally be grown on shit like in the Martian movie. Besides this, Ukraine has many energy reserves in north eastern part. Many american companies were making good money in eastern Ukraine(i can vouch for that) before the civil war. On the other hand, like you said, this country is divided between Russia and Europe. My believe is that Ukraine is and will always be a European country. However it happens that Ukraine is partly birthplace of the very first russian countries. It is deeply embedded in Russian culture. Putin always, in all his previous talks was referring to them as "our ukranian brothers". Himself being a nationalist he understood that with more than 15% muslims and other all sorts of nationalities he needed Ukraine for his dream of a Russian empire. He understood that without Ukraine, Russia is no longer the land of Russians. He attempted also to increase that customs union of his but without Ukraine(another 40 mln people) it is doomed to failure.

 

On the other hand we have an irresponsible political class in that country, corruption, lack of legislation favourable to investments - it is partly fault of the politicians. When that conflict first started I was expecting USA to react firmly... Was partly disappointed about Obama at first. But Obama is a pacifist and he understood that direct confrontation would benefit the russians. And to this day I am convinced that the sanctions and the oil price(maybe there was some kind of ayylmao conspiracy on the oil prices) have caused more damage to Putin than any military confrontation. The Bear is literally on his knees now. I have a deep respect for Obama in this sense. But again, we have a divided country swarmimng with civil unrest near the border of EU. This is no good in any scenario. 

 

And the people... Well I am not from Ukraine but I had the chance to come and wash some good old west-european ass and I said "Hell no, get that out of my face, wash you our damn assess". Immigration is an issue indeed and will always be, its not something new. But must not become the only guideline in foreign policies.

 

regarding the heavy industry now - yes Ukraine had some unnique areas. It was part of the USSR military complex but it was suffering already when it gained its independence cause Kremlin cut out the supply lines from the bordering states long before it was clear USSR is doomed. In some sense this hit Ukranians the most and created this contrast we see in their society. And of course they scrapped everything and sold the military equipment on the black market. At some point this is the way of the world and the spirit of competition implied by the free markets. 

 

I am not sure what will happen there in the near future but it is shame on EU and USA and Russia for letting such thing to occur at its borders. You might think some of the most intelligent people are becoming decision factors but in the end it's all about coke and prostitutes.

 

Enough about that. Big B I will try to avoid the discussion about human nature for now. It seems like a trap. I am sure that there are enough philosophy books on human nature. However it is not something that can be measured without doubt. And when people were not sure about something, usually what prevailed was a consensus of a community upon a certain issue. And the general consensus nowaday is that communism was tried and it failed not because there wasn't enough intellectuals to promote him but because it failed to respond to the needs of the people in a way that capitalism still can.

Edited July 4, 2016 by LostWorld

[Ivan the Red]

LostWorld, one think I can agree with the anti-commie guy here is that the "that wasn't real communism" line of defense is not valid. Neither is to discard failed capitalist countries with a "that is not true capitalism". The transition from Socialism to Capitalism in all easter european countries was made at full speed in one to three years. Ukraine suffered a 10,000% anual inflation rate as everything was quickly privatized. The replacement of socialism with capitalism in the former easter bloc was pure Milton Friedman recipes in action. And they failed. All those countries remain in misery and their crooked rulers must resort to anti-communism, rusophobia and rehabilitation of nazi criminals to keep their population distracted from the real problem: the oligarchs that have been ransacking them for a quarter of a century.

 

Bt the way, it's interesting that you stablish a dychotomy between "Russia" and "Europe". If you look at my message, I never said that Ukraine is torn between Russia and "Europe". I said that Ukraine is torn between Russia and the European Union. Russia is part of Europe. I have always rejected the politization of the notion of "Europe". Napoleon excluded Russia from Europe right before invading it. Then all the crowned heads in the West were glad to welcome Russia back into Europe when the tsarist armies were instrumental in defeating the Corsican Ogre. Britain and France excluded Russia from Europe again in the Crimea War, ironically in defense of the Ottoman Empire (who, too, was considered "european" or not at the Wester Power's convenience). Then Bismark was glad to welcome Russia into Europe in order to isolate France, but then Kaiser Wilhelm decided to !@#$ up, and both Britain and France were glad to welcome Russia back into Europe in order to defeat Germany in WWI. Then the bolsheviks seized power and Russia was again out of "Europe" until everyone needed Uncle Joe to get rid of the bohemian caporal. Then Russia was again Europe for a brief period until the Cold War started. Ousted from "Europe" for nearly 40 years, everyone was glad to welcome Russia back in order to help the dismantlement of communism. And Russia was again Europe until Putin began to take issue on the proliferation of NATO countries and military bases in the borders of Russia. And now the German-controlled European Union gets to decide who is European and who is not? Come on, for the Roman Empire, the germans were not even Europe. I'm from Spain, another country that, like Russia and Turkey, has been considered "Europe" or not at the convenience of the british, french and germans. Sorry if I sound grumpy but I'm a bit fed up with that.

 

Finally, I want to say some words about what you said about the need to acknowledge the crimes of communism. The point of the OP and of the people who go around howling about the "crimes of communism" has never been to bring justice and restitution to the victims.

 

First example: You have that term, "crimes of communism". If an american soldier murders a civilian in Afganishtan, it's just an isolated incident, not "crimes of capitalism". But if a soldier from a communist country murders a civilian somewhere, it's one more body for the "crimes of communism". In the last 14 years, 6,000 people have died trying to cross the US-Mexico border. Crimes of capitalism? 136 people died trying to cross the Berlin Wall in all it's 28 years of existence. Those are crimes of communism. Truman dropped two atomic bombs on japanese civilian population, will you take anyone calling that a "crime of capitalism" seriously? At least 200,000 german girls were raped by american soldiers after the end of WWII, but those are not "crimes of capitalism". On the other hand, every german woman raped by a soviet soldier during the occupation of nazi germany is a "crime of communism". About 3 million people died during the Bengal Famine of 1943 in Winstor Churchill's british india. You see that adressed as "crimes of capitalism"? But the one million people who died in the ukrainian famine of 1933 - "crimes of communism". When Stalin began to shot down people in the Purges - crimes of communism. But when over one million people, mainly leftists, were butchered in the Indonesian Killings of 1965... you will not see those adressed as "crimes of capitalism" (in fact just having the genocide acknowledged at all is a recent thing).

 

I'm sure it rings you as a bit ridicule that I label all those crimes as "crimes of capitalism". I get the same sensation when I hear someone read a list of "crimes of communism". When people talk about the "crimes of communism", there is no will to bring justice and restitution to the victims, just to instrumentalize the body count to forward their political agenda.

 

At that brings me to my second example: The body count. Extensive archivistical research after the fall of the Soviet Union has identified about 200,000 political prisoners killed and a total of 950,000 deaths in the soviet penal systems during Stalin's regime. These are identified bodies, with names. Do you know what will happen when those anti-commie crusaders see the number I gave? They will yell in outrage because my body count is too low and will multiply the numbers by x10 or x100 depending on if they took normal or extra-crispy cereals for breakfast this morning. What they will never do is go to the graves to dig out the corpses, then to the archives to dig out the names. Because the individual victim with name and surname is irrelevant, what they need is a big number that lets them present Communism as worse than Hitler.

 

If someone wants to refute marxism, sure, bring Schumpeter, Karl Popper, or perhaps some Max Weber. But a debate about body counts will always boild down to a quagmire of "you too" or worse.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Ivan the Red

[LostWorld]

I ll bring a bottle of wine next time we talk ideologies. For now i think i will retreat. You are right. It kinda scratched my ears when i read "crimes of capitalism". Anyway it s good to hear another point of view. Will ponder on that. Goo day.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Huh. No one ever points out that the only ones who win are the leaders who rule over the corruption they create for themselves while the rest of us suffer.

Everyone worships these ideologies which have failed to be implemented properly, but in the end the corrupt elite sipping from their golden goblets, laughing at the blind followers of their regimes, are the only victors.

Stop following blind ideologies like they are any better than the opposition. They all suck in the end.