[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

5 hours ago, Keegoz said:

It isn't an argument, it's literally a fact. She wasn't leader. Kid can you just stop posting your dribble and let the adults talk.

I requested crayons and a coloring book for him but I am still waiting.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

8 hours ago, Adrienne said:

This particular claim makes very little sense to me. Singularity didn’t even exist when the Fortuna war ended, and at that point, we were still allied to one of the alliances that would go on to form Singularity. So no, we weren’t immediately plotting against you. If Rose instead wanted to make that claim, they might have a leg to stand on. However, that decision to fight them was based on our understanding they were blaming us for the coalition against Fortuna, which we made clear in our CB/discussions with them following that war, even if they disagreed with our conclusions.

You seem to be forgetting I was leading Paradise at the time. You are correct that you weren't plotting to hit Singularity at that point, because it didn't exist, but it's a moot point, you did plan to hit Singularities predecessor, you DID hit Singularity ultimately, when it merged, on the back of that plan. There was even a retroactive attempt to use the formation of Singularity and the numbers it provided to Florida, as a justification, completely ignoring the fact you were more than willing to hit Florida, with TKR/Grumpy AND CATA.

I was establishing why I don't trust you by pointing to an example of when I worked with you in a coalition, and then you immediately plotted to target the people you worked with in that same coalition. You can say it was all about Rose all you like, but Rose didn't even front the coalition against Fortuna, nor the formation of Florida, I have as much of a basis to make that claim as Rose does, and given my role in the formation of that coalition, more so I'd say. And considering you just conceded that Rose has a leg to stand on, it's clear you aren't denying you chose to target us immediately after the war ended.

8 hours ago, Adrienne said:

Did we try to make an arrangement that was as much to our advantage as to the advantage of the other members of the coalition? Of course we did. As did you, as does any alliance.

I wasn't criticizing your desire to make an arrangement that benefited you. I was directly responding to the claim you "rescued us" and that we should be "grateful."

You made a self interested decision to enter. We made overtures towards you before the war ever started, to which you guys turned down. That's within your rights, but the attempt to spin the events of last war as a "rescue" of a group of alliances who had already lost all their infra and been fighting that specific conflict for 2 months is laughable. We COULD have gone through with what by all accounts would have been long nap, sat out of the next cycle, leaving you guys to fend for yourselves. (Which, amusingly, is what happened here.), but instead we chose to fight longer in order to avoid a potential nap cycle being placed on all parties.

 

8 hours ago, Adrienne said:

But blaming everything that went wrong in that war on TKR shows a lack of accountability for your own role in how that war played out. Everyone involved contributed to the breakdown of that war. Best I can tell, there was at least one glaring possibility that was missed and/or not adequately planned for during war prep, which when happened, led to panicked decision making, a breakdown of communications, and a war that went down quickly in flames. We all had a hand in that.

I'm going to assume this is because you only became leader after the war, and so your involvement was limited. There was definitely discussion and counter measures put into place for the one glaring possibility you are alluding.

And you are correct, panicked decision making did take place, but it wasn't ours. We had very specific expectations that were set, and when the chips were down, those expectations were not met by the parties on your side of the coalition. We didn't panic, we immediately responded, and urged others to follow through on the commitments they had made, but out of fear, they chose not to.

So no, I don't concede that at all.

8 hours ago, Adrienne said:

To clarify your misconception here, the moment the offer was made to us, we took it to the coalition. There was no separate deal. Despite your perception that you were going to be left behind, that was never a reality nor a real possibility. Although, by your own words, you were doing just fine and didn't need our help, we can agree that had that been a legitimate thing we were trying to do, it would have been bad. Fortunately, that wasn't the case. We assume this misinterpretation of our intent comes from the fact we first took the offer to Rose to gauge their interest, since they had the most to lose from continuing the war and we were willing to continue fighting if they were.

My claim, from the beginning, is that there was an attempt, by Morf, to leave us behind. That is what he supported, that is what he wanted. And that is why he brought the deal only to Rose first, and pitched it that way. Had Rose agreed to it then, that's what would have happened.

You say he brought the offer to Rose first, what you are omitting, is he brought the offer that included leaving Singularity/TFP in the war alone, to Rose first, and advocated for it.

And he did a lot more advocating for it from what I have seen.

8 hours ago, Adrienne said:

I could likewise say the same, considering every effort in collaboration with you for the past year results in malicious rumors and our name being smeared. While we don’t deny we’ve made mistakes and are fine taking ownership of them when we’ve actually done something wrong, there have been countless rumors about us of late that are clearly false and, whether intentionally or unintentionally, manufactured. It's easy to read between the lines and completely misinterpret statements when one is searching for ill intent. This is what we believe has been happening on your end. We're choosing to give you the benefit of the doubt here instead of assuming you're intentionally lying and smearing us. There is clearly some mutual mistrust between our alliances fueling this, and that's something we are willing to admit and work toward resolving. We’ve already started talking with your alliance privately and are happy to try and work this out if you're willing to as well. Same offer goes to Rose and Guardian, who I understand to have similar concerns as well.

This I find a little ridiculous. Your only grievance from us is that as you say, is malicious rumors. But those "malicious" rumors, are just the same accusations that I have made here. Essentially, you are mad that we are mad at you.

You can call what I've said lies and smears, but when things started to get heated here, I approached you and offered to settle this privately. I haven't yet dropped any of the information on here to make my points, because ultimately, the only audience here that I've been directing this is you and your government.

So here is my question, Do you want me to start dropping logs? Because being called a liar for the claims I've been making is, to me, a direct call out. And the only way I can defend myself here is to start doing so.

I am happy to start responding, with logs, starting with every post Canbec has made, and then you, and then the random ass members of TKR and their various hot takes, if that is where we feel this needs to go.

Or, we can deal with it privately, and you stop trying to argue points in public that aren't true.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

52 minutes ago, Who Me said:

Given that you stated that you didn't want to sign the NAP and wanted to keep fighting and I asked you why you did and why you didn't and you and others never answered but just kept deflecting or ignoring the questions, I am old enough to know when to stop beating the dead horse. So no it doesn't settle the issue you just keep avoiding it. You keep telling yourself what ever you need to in order to make yourself feel good about things.

Bye again.

Yeah you weren't the person I was talking about lmfao.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

9 minutes ago, lancelot1 said:

So essentially you’re upset that “random members” such as myself interject in your discussion between the elite members that you want to talk to? I’m sorry to rain on your high gov parade. Unfortunately, I’m just not as important as you.

You can feel free to keep trying to make me feel bad or stupid or uninformed as much as you’d like, but it doesn’t change the fact that you all made a lame move signing this NAP and your several attempts to blame it on TKR are pathetic and, in many respects, complete fabrications. 

Lmfao upset?

I trolled you a little, it seems it got under your skin.

You have been making assertions throughout the thread to events you weren't a party to. It's not elitist for me to observe that, huh, this lancelot guy was suspiciously absent from every one of the group chats I've been alluding to. I didn't address you until you responded to one of my posts, again asserting things you don't have any knowledge. Hell you just did it again in this post.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad because you are uninformed. You are uninformed. But jeez, spare me the victim routine my guy, you came in here guns blazing, took your shots, and I've responded in kind.

On that note, can someone get this guy some crayons and a coloring book?

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

1 hour ago, Daveth said:

Cool, good on you to acknowledge it - kind of weird to take it out on TKRs folks or Wilson in the crossfire. I'm just saying, its a bit harder to argue you didn't want a NAP when you've signed an extension, and then decide from there between their claims and yours, y'know?

Given the original people who made the claim have backed off it, and are no longer responding or claiming we wanted the one day war nap, I suppose that settles the issue.

 

8 minutes ago, lancelot1 said:

Dude, can you make it more than 4 sentences without giving yourself a high five over how involved you are in the goings on of Orbis as compared to others?

As surprising as it may seem, even those of us that need a telescope to view you up on your high pedestal are allowed to comment on this forum and sometimes, even we lowly peasants, understand some of what’s going on this game. 
 

In fact (brace yourself before reading this next part because it will shock you) our TKR gov and high gov members even sometimes ask the “regular members” our opinions before making a decision. I know I know, wild stuff. 
 

All in all, it’s lucky for your alliance’s “regular members” that you are such a benevolent ruler given the lengths you’ve gone to make it crystal clear that you don’t care at all what they—or anyone not special enough to be one of the extra super duper elite alliance high gov members—think.  

 I was directly responding to his point that if I wanted to convince random members of what I was saying, I should log dump the information I'm referring to, by explaining that my goal wasn't to convince random members.

Are you upset I'm not trying to convince you? Is that what the rant is about? What exactly would that accomplish?

I was having a direct argument, with very specific people, and others chose to interject. If I had simply ignored you, and not responded to you at all, would that have been preferable? Seems like that sort of thing is what you were just complaining about.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

13 minutes ago, Daveth said:

I'm gonna be honest, I find it largely understandable @lancelot1 or anyone would take issue with going along with your claims on TKR, right? Not to say I haven't had my bone to pick with them in the past as well.

But I've often noticed there seems to be a dynamic of FA heads alluding to having evidence of their claims for the sake of posturing and then withholding said evidence for the sake of OPSEC or some other similar concern. This makes it basically impossible for anyone, let alone someone who has no reason to trust you and doubt their government, to be convinced or take your point at face value.

The parties who I was arguing with before random members interjected themselves into the conversation know exactly what I'm referring to. Most of them aren't the ones arguing here anymore though, so it would be probably be bad form to start log dumping on them. I probably would have done that back in the old TGH days.

To be honest, I'm not interested in whether or not bystanders or random members believe what I'm saying. Otherwise you are right, I'd just dump the logs. The parties I'm talking to know what I'm referring to, and the posts I have been making were more directed towards them than towards random members, or FA heads who weren't in any of the chats last war.

On an unrelated note, the thread has reached 10 pages. It's too bad the forums aren't this active more often.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

5 minutes ago, Diocletian said:

Not speaking in context of who fought who, just that I remember you from back in the day. 

Ah, that makes more sense. I had to double take for a moment and think about if I fought VE lmfao.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

7 minutes ago, Diocletian said:

You realise Sketchy is an oldhead too right? Been gov plenty of places as well, hell I remember this dude when VE was kicking ass and handing out numbers. 

I appreciate the defence but I'm also thoroughly confused as I never fought against VE lmfao.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

11 minutes ago, Benfro said:

You accuse everyone else of not staying on topic, but whenever a response is posted, your go to is just “you clearly don’t know what you are talking about.”

That may have worked against our veteran TKR members, some of whom are retired gov etc. But in this case, you didn’t even bother to check who you responded to…

This is the FA high gov of The Immortals. Try a different dismissive argument since you clearly don’t want to actually engage with anyone’s conversation. 

I'm aware of who he is Benfro.

He responded to me by dismissing most of what I said, he didn't want to engage with what I said, so I simply did the same. Maybe you should have read his post first, since everything you are saying, applies to him.

I already engaged with him by making a very long and detailed post, addressing his random comment.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

11 minutes ago, Dr James Wilson said:

It's funny you say that you aren't mad when that comment prompted your WoT.   I can't say I find your complaining about us entering the war on our terms something worth responding too.  Or your quip about not being rescued even though you guys were still asking us to enter.   Or your whining about being at war for so long when you engaged in that infra shaving campaign of your own free will.   Thats on you.   You don't get to pull that out of a bag as a retort.

The rest of your post is basically just you crapping on TKR and wanting to rehash your entire relationship with them it seems.   They can deal with that nonsense if they want too.  But maybe some have singled you guys out because you sure are doing a lot of talking about it.  As for past behaviors, do be careful not to throw stones from your glass house.

If you don't want to respond to points made, stop chiming in. You clearly aren't looped in enough to be able to argue your case.

I'll pay you the same courtesy and not bother to respond to anything you said.

[Genius plan]

Yep, that checks out.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

21 minutes ago, lancelot1 said:

I was TKR high gov for two years so I’m all set with the lessons, as much as I appreciate them. I apologize for not giving you my bio before daring to speak to you. Heavens only know the embarrassment you must have felt having to speak to a “regular member”

I accept your apology, and I am thankful you have seen the error of your ways. I am impressed by your humility, coming forward and admitting to such inexperience is a true sign of your fortitude and character.

I sincerely hope TKR will deign to give you another shot at high government in the future so you can complete your training, you deserve it.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

1 hour ago, Keza Purple said:

maybe hes shadow gov, stop giving him attention lol 

I am a firm believer in helping to train the next generation of TKR leaders so they too can come and gaslight me on the forums.

Yes yes, I know, very saintly of me, contain your praise, it truly is a thankless job, but we all must do our part.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

33 minutes ago, lancelot1 said:

Wow what a great comeback by you. My feelings are really hurt now. 
 

Shockingly, even me, a lowly “regular member” knows that TKR was not trying to join your ridiculous NAP. You guys should stop claiming that we were. 

Not trying to hurt your feelings bud.

But considering you are struggling to follow the thread, and think our argument is that TKR tried to join this nap(?), you should perhaps let your government handle this.

 

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

3 hours ago, lancelot1 said:

It’s completely false, which has already been said multiple times in this thread. You don’t have evidence that it’s true because it is not true. You all made this deal for your own reasons. TKR was not a part of it and was never trying to be a part of it. 

Bro you a regular member you don't know shit lmfao

Go sit in a corner with Who Me and play some baseball

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

16 hours ago, Dr James Wilson said:

I've never seen a group of people so angry at being rescued from a beatdown that they deserved and basically begged for.

"Rescued"

ODOO set terms and conditions on us for their entry that were undoubtedly beneficial to themselves. Their entry was self interest, a prid quo pro. By that point in the war, we had already taken all the damage we were going to take.

Peace negotiations with SAIL and us would have taken place and been finished well before the extended war would have, had parties remained in the coalition instead of peacing out.

We could have taken a long NAP and sat and allowed for things to play out without us. It would have been more beneficial for us to do so. We opted to make a deal that would prolong the conflict we had already been fighting for 2 months (preceding 2 months of fighting others) in order to make a move that would benefit all parties, That would have committed us to at least 5 months of straight war.

The assertion that we were rescued from anything is laughable. I'm not going to expand on what your terms were, despite the various wild claims being made here, but the fact is, you guys had a deal on the table that worked for you, and that is why you helped.

And then you walked away from the deal. And very abruptly. We all know how much of a mess that was.

As far as us being "angry" goes, I hadn't really intended to get involved in this discussion much. But certain claims were made here that required addressing, and I think it's interesting you guys have chosen to single us out, given everyone else who signed onto the nap, including alliances you claim to have good relations with, and, all in all, we owe you the least here besides perhaps Eclipse.

TKR immediately planned to attack us as soon as the Fortuna war in which we fought together was over. And they did, bringing in Syndicate. That put us under a NAP cycle, the same one that prompted their entry into our war later on.

TKR made a deal that, as I said earlier, was beneficial to them, in order to bring themselves in, and then when things got too hairy for them, struck a different deal behind our backs, and attempted to exclude us from the process, which would have inevitably left us in the same war they are purported to have rescued us from lmfao.

These are all claims I can easily support with evidence, if I have to. Despite all this, we have not gone after or targeted you directly, this entire time. We could have easily sought revenge on TKR/ODOO for your previous attacks on us, we could have easily sought to align with people attempting to hit you this cycle, and, with this nap in place, we could easily align with the current coalition against you. Instead, we have, more than once, attempted to work with you, and find mutual common ground and cut deals with you that would work to our mutual benefit.

But past behaviour is a pretty good indicator for future behaviour, and TKR has proven time and time again, that collaboration with you ends poorly for us.

Perhaps you'd prefer me to sit alongside you, whisper sweet nothings in your ear, and pretend like I wasn't one of the alliances who signed onto the NAP? Given who you guys have chosen as the target of your ire here, it feels to me that you'd rather hear comfortable lies than brutal honesty.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

3 hours ago, Themonia said:

Because then they would have been sat on until they surrendered and got a NAP anyway, just with harsher terms to accompany it? I'm not sure what the confusion here is stemming from, the answer should be glaringly obvious. 

He's not confused, he's just doing a bad @Eumirbagoimpression 🤣

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

2 hours ago, Jacob Knox said:

Hang on did we just witness TKR and Singularity already begin making up after being at each other's throats for a minute there? No, we can't let this happen. Make them fight again!

TKR smell bad

Adrienne has poo on head

Benfro stink of fish

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

14 minutes ago, Who Me said:

Except you didn't continue the fight and you still haven't said why.

ThErE wAs nO oNe LeFt tO FiGhT

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

18 minutes ago, Who Me said:

Why didn't you then?

IDK bro, the prospect of being abandoned by your coalition partners isn't exactly an amazing deal.

Why didn't TKR keep fighting? Seems I could just make the same argument to you. Lmfao.

 

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

6 hours ago, Canbec said:

Pretty rich coming from the alliance who threw a hissy fit because we pushed back when they wanted the initial NAP to be even longer than it ended up being.

Cute spin.

You guys are the ones who forced the peace in the first place in one day war.

We didn't want to peace at all. We wanted to keep fighting. Now you are trying to pretend that was instigated by us, because as usual, TKR plays the blame game, and this is exactly why we didn't want to work with you. You betray the coalitions you work with, over and over, shifting blame to others to hide your own shit.

We had just come off fighting 4 months straight, and you forced us into the room to make peace after one day. We would have fought on. You cut a deal with t$ and leveraged it to get us all to peace out. Attempting to pin the nap on us because, when faced with a decision we didn't want, we pushed for something that would benefit us more as a consolation prize, is rich.

Now you are shocked and amazed that we dared not to work with you, when you are still out here lying and obfuscating information in order to shift responsibility from yourselves. This NAP happened because of you, because you weren't content to fight Eclipse in a 1v1 on your own terms, and we knew, that when face to face with that prospect in a months time, you would have signed the other deal on the table and left us to be screwed. Because that is what you did last war, and that is the pattern of behaviour you've established for 2 cycles in a row, you screw over your coalition partners.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

26 minutes ago, Vein said:

be fair and maybe nuke the other 3 spheres as well for signing it, Eclipse weren't the only one who did it. Perhaps also go visit the other only sphere who signed M treaty with the only other biggest sphere not once, but twice then followed afterwards with a 3.5 month NAP after a one day war. Why are most of the playerbase in this game so stupid? I only feel for the members kek

It's only a bad NAP when it doesn't include TKR.

I'm sure @BigMorf would be singing a different tune if the Syndicate/Eclipse/ODOO nap that he supported got through. 

[Bored during the NAP?]

Alternatively, you can all play Roberts Bingo with me!

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

7 minutes ago, Canbec said:

dw I'm hyper-caffeinated so I've still got a couple hours in me.

Quitting Caffeine was the best worst decision (or worst best decision) I've ever made so I envy you.

[[Treaty] Why NAP when you can sleep?]

6 minutes ago, Velyni Vas said:

For how long is the question.

TKR members probably need to sleep at some point. 🤣