Maelstrom Vortex

I rest my case.

Except in the court I might have the benefit of a jury without biases, no?

I can understand that desire, that'd be up to Alex of course, but I could still see a potential for abuse. It'd also make the current ban and remedy in recent moderation action somewhat hypocritical as essentially a service/good as incentive for membership/participation that is alleged to have monetary value was alleged to have been exchanged off-site was the cause of the recent set of bans and moderation actions. That said.. no difference between supposedly providing novels and definitely providing steam keys except the latter is absolutely confirmed to have occurred. I say alleged because I've read the material and there is no concrete evidence the novels were ever provided, please note that I am trying to remain somewhat neutral and simply and observing I have no solid facts on that matter, despite Alex's assertion, he may be convinced, but.. there isn't any real proof. But that's enough for him, I'm just saying how such would look in relation to recent moderation.

Except that the very words were that it was not illegal behavior. So no, they didn't. And this is why the rules change is so essential. If it is stated the only permitted transactions for an in game benefit must occur through the purchasing system of the site.. you can't be any more clear than that. You guys do what you want, I am only here to hang out. I have no real love of my nation here.. it just is. I am only telling you how you can prevent this mistake from recurring and make Alex's job easier. By making sure the rules are in an unquestionable state as to their intent with no loop holes, which is what my suggestion does, everyone's life gets a little easier.. those seeking compliance and rules adjudicators. Or you can let this partisan crap show keep going and make no improvement and likely see repetition from future parties as this slowly fades from the forums.

They did.. someone clearly has not read the logs. It took them a while into the convo, but they did pretty much fess up to all of it as they were pushed and the nature of what the complaint was was clear. See Frawley's and Roq's explanations. They did also explain why they thought he had cleared it.

Yup... they knew they'd get "caught", they thought it was legal. Since you like to spin, not read, and only respond to the points you like.. you get a participation trophy and no further response.

You are such a spinster. 1. Alex did not think deeply enough into what he was allowing passive permission for. He indicated it was a known mechanics problem and probably should/will be nerfed. This happens in games alll the time. And yes, min/maxers exploit those mechanics in the existing rule-set.. legally.. until the dev fixes it. There was no indication the act was illegal by the fact it was said it wasn't a moderation concern/problem. 2. I indicated/showed nothing. That content is already in Alex's logs. 3. You obviously do not read as that is not at all what happened. He did finally get into a group chat with the NPO alliance leadership... months later.. the ones who knew what were happening.. not the people in the alliance who might have had half-a-clue and they made their case and he plowed through it with his own information gathering and made it a point that the activity they participated in, he now interpreted as illegal and subject to moderation since he then knew the full extent of it. There is a lack of general consistency.. I've given the solution for it. I am not saying the NPO is clean in this, they did push to the fringe a mechanic they knew was considered a problem, but again, this does, legally happen in quite a few games until the issue is corrected. The problem is that Alex, probably because he was unaware of the full potential for its deployment, did say the behavior was allowed within moderation standards indicating he would not take action.... However, he has. This is why when you're establishing a game like this you have to really try to get ahead of your players and anticipate. People will push the boundaries.

I did nothing.. and I did say that both parties are in the wrong. Also explicitly NOT a moderation issue. There's a difference in an exploit and something that needs nerfed. This was not an exploit. This was a mechanic allowed to fester, then corrected and people punished for it who rightfully had a reason to believe it was within current acceptable bounds. That is the truth of it to anyone not reading through one lens or the other, setting aside all preconceptions and biases and simply reading for details.

It was pretty much spelled out.. verbatim. From the logs. I see that as a Mechanics.. not a moderation issue...

Your problem.. Sir, is I did nothing. Nice try. You go re-roll.. being a 0 suits you better. Gah.. you got me.. baited into another reply. YOu win this time. Heck I thought you already had me on ignore. I usually can't expect you to be rational.

Sir, you re assentially biased hubris incarnate. That said.. my reply other than this will be accordingly silent other than : "Read the logs and try to pretend you are not aggressively anti-NPO and think OOC, unless your bias extends beyond character in which I have no cure for that." Reiteration: I am thinking as a game administrator would. I am offering you an ounce of prevention to prevent a future world of additional pain from another source. That is all. I will not be responding to future posts in this thread as of this point. As I said, no horse in this race. Improvements will happen.. or.. they won't.. and the same disease may strike again, proving me inerrant-ly.. correct, as I so love to be and oft am.

The rules are not clear. I have given a translation where they are. I have explained why they are not clear in my suggestion.. And if they were clear, I do not see why Alex has a hard time with his on interpretation of them 5 months ago. His own logs, when you actually download that html, put it onto a desktop, open it in a browser in a way that you can read it.. (because the XML formatting will drive you batty in text format) will actually tell the whole story and an unbiased third party looking at it with an open mind will see how they were literally.. Talking right past each other. Alex gave the go ahead, and then changed his stance 5 months later. The thing is this shouldn't be something Alex should be deciding on the fly. This should have been an "already in the rules" matter.. and it wasn't, not clearly.. or again.. why a misinterpretation by its own creator and inaccurate guidance? If the game wants to heal, the hubris needs to die. Stop patronizing me. Start reading and listening and keeping an open mind and consider adaptations that will avoid a repeat by any other future party.. and simplify Alex's own job. You told me yourself, you haven't read the whole log yet. Read the entire transcript. Go as far as I did.. download the files, open the links.. it's self-manifest what happened. Alex made his case, but he needs to realize his role in the whole matter for a genuine correction to occur. Know what I know, that the players accused have never broken rules before when the Administrator's position was entirely clear on the matter and transparent. This is NOT in character for them. Pushing boundaries? Most definitely.. going over them? It yields no reward. I will point out something Roq said, we cannot possibly expect to hide the scope of this. It would be found out. The government KNEW this.. you can read that for yourself. There would be no point to an active and sustained deception that would be known to be inevitably uncovered to dire consequences. This is effectively asking you to think of our leadership as inept.. and short sighted. If that were the case.. and we've waged war with you before and will likely after this unless Alex totally nukes us.. and kept the lot of you at bay.. then what does it say of yourselves? It's totally without any sort of logic to it. This is not a black/white situation. This is a grey. This is a lesson waiting to be learned and by more than one party.

There is no rationalization. I have said there are problems on both ends of this. If hubris on both ends repeats. then this problem will repeat itself, just with another party. You may mark my words on that, and I will look forward, but with the regret of foresight to my prophecy being fulfilled. I submit that Hero has ignored the post from other Pacificans that they did have a conversation with Alex about this very thing. Their understanding passed like ships in the night in a midst of a fog with neither recognizing the other. Take my wisdom.. or don't.. and suffer. The change is simple, and leaves no room for error. Alex can just say, "Look at the rules." No discord chat required. I offer this purely of good will to improve a community based on my understanding on how player/rules, and game interactions work. I gift this based on my experience. If that experience is ignored out of some misguided attempt at propaganda, when I don't genuinely care about the matter, do so at your own peril. I barely play this game. I am here because friends are. I do not have a pony in this circus except to see people have a better time and to have better fights. My nation, exists in a state now, that even if all the worlds end except the real, it would still be.. thus I could care less about these colonies on virtual worlds of text.

Wanted to note I've done my final edit and am finally happy with the verbiage. So feel free to post your thoughts. I won't be changing the OP from this post on. They used a loophole.. wrong on them. The loophole, however, did exist. This closes the loophole so it cannot even be vaguely interpreted in any other way. It makes it so the terminology of the rule more fits the spirit of the rule. Also, Alex, you have my sympathy in policing the piranha.. that's what these communities are, vats full of them. Tearing at each other and anything they can make go boom. If they find a crack they will squeeze through it, a fracture, they will wedge it open. This is true for all of them, despite their propaganda or good intentions, I've seen it repeat in game after game. The worst part is they all have different languages backgrounds and histories. so you get the full gambit of the human response and one language for them all to consider (unless you stretch out into localization). Language is humanity's most fickle of beasts. Mortar must be packed good when it comes to the rules, or they will make a mess. The good news is your other rules do not leave much to ask about. This is the only place where there may be any vagueness and this edit should remove it, hopefully permanently. I personally would not have even thought about using art and translation services (artistically other than writing my talent is .. lackluster) to get folks to join the game and support us.. so this whole fiasco has me surprised as well. Trying to anticipate everything is just about impossible, so best you can do is fix the holes once it's spotted.

It's more on a clarity philosophy. Rules must be clear to be precisely obeyed. I have put a suggestion up for your consideration. What has happened is a clear failure to communicate. This can be corrected by making sure the language leaves no question as to the only means of proper cash/benefit interactions with the site.

Original: Proposed: Logic: The concept of what is a good is not universal. Some think hard objects. Some consider art a service. Oh, annother errata.. services.. may be more difficult to tackle because simple community access can be a service. The last line I've submitted leaves little room at all for any kind of interpretation. If it's not processed through the site, via the payment system, they should not be doing it for an in-game gain.

Did you meet them half way and take responsibility for your part in causing this? Until you do that as a game administrator.. the rifts won't mend. I am going to go read the rules on transactions again. If they've not been clarified that also needs to take effect.

We didn't cheat. Alex elected to change the interpretation of the rules because he didn't realize the scale by which non-monetary transactions may propagate. He could have more clearly defined the rules, been more precise on flat out banning all transactions that didn't go to his wallet, but he didn't. I've seen all the evidence. I consider myself to be relatively unbiased because though I belong to NPO, I also care for a fair battlefield, and I can tell you right now. Alex is at Fault. So is the NPO. Problem is only one side bears any form of punishment. This is my view on the matter and all I will say any further on it. This was handled poorly all around. Rarely is the truth black and white. When egos prevail, no one wins. How a professional would have handled this: 1. Updated and clarified the rules in a manner that could not be mistaken or otherwise interpreted. 2. Acknowledgement of fault by both parties. A mature conversation about how to re-balance the game in light of the correction. 3. No bans, but definitely modifications to assets to reflect consensus. 4. Elimination of non-active actors over time by their own inactivity. New standards of activity. 5. Proceed on revised rules. I say this in light that I have assisted with developing and moderating a game of a similar design. I have seen these same occurrences as a completely third party in other gaming worlds. Those worlds died for the same reasons that I am seeing starting to come to light here and which Alex, CAN.. avoid. But that world died due to the administrator of it failing to care for it or sustaining it any longer. Issues like this one, which required difficult choices, were allowed to go unresolved or with improper solutions. P&W was/is a little fun.. so I hope for those who enjoy it he can come up with a fix that's more suitable. One thing I must say, is you have to give credit to those whom the rest of you who opposed in the NPO perceived as being cheaters. I had no direct involvement in the mechanisms by which the game interaction for art assets come to light, but there was a lot of work by those individuals to fabricate/translate that art, create that server, organize it in such a manner that the Order and its friends may thrive here. You could say that group was playing the game on a whole-other-level. And it believed itself okay to do so. Believed it benefited the game by drawing in new people as well. If the damage is deemed to enormous by all involved there's always Order 66. 66. Reset it all and start from scratch, renew the madness with a new round under the newly clarified rules. Problem with order 66, people have invested in assets in this game that would be lost, so likely not an option, which makes for a much stickier situation.

Translation of policy decision: Any external transactions that do not directly benefit my wallet.. are illegal. Please note, I pass no moral judgement on this position, only observe it.

With the bulk of his adversaries air and naval forces dispatched, the Emperor made his way to the fronts, his 60 foot form intentionally and deliberately shook the ground. His combat suit was active with several milimeters of composite and reactive armor as well as two Centuriuon CWIS mounts bracketed to rings on his horns. He was effectively walking warship. As missiles streaked across the front line, intercepted by his worn defenses, his maw opened and a column of lightning opened through the enemy ground troops as the attack on Ollyland began in earnest with a focus.. on driving into the nearest city and its financial institutions and bringing its treasuries and reserves to the ground, and into his own forces possession. "Once you loot.. Raze.. we want them inoperable for the next wave." His command boomed across the battlefield like thunder. Small arms fire hit him from all direction. Periodically a bullet would find a weak point in the joints and penetrate to a gush of his own viscera, but he just kept moving.. he wanted his people to feel safe again and the sure way to do that was to put the enemy down and get them to the table.

Wars upon wars. Dragonisia had seem them before, and now they had come again, beset on all sides by adversaries tended to be when it grew the most."Charlatans all. They know not what they fight. The Dragonisians seemingly knew no end for when they were fallen simply more would be sent to the front. Dragons in their jet suits and with missile payloads under wing and belly, blotted out the skies and swarmed their would be aggressors, rending their air-fields and setting their armored columns to light, making way for the diversity of lessor biped races that constituted Dragonisia's ground forces to press forward. The Pacifican war machine would not relent.. would not waver.. ever. He watched his troops fight and die.. age and seeing the same scene so many times before had left his heart and mind callous to the struggle to survive which was war. When ideology set upon ideology until one was ground into obscurity. He quietly shook his head. "When they will learn the way? They should just all submit, they will be better for it."

Hah, that'd actually be pretty cool for it to increase naturally like that. You're right, such limits shouldn't exist. After all, that's what alliances are for, you think this is absurd, but I think the game would rebalance itself politically in line with the new reality. I agree. open it all up. Resets based on a genuine nuclear winter could make things extremely interesting, especially if we allowed for spec ops teams removal of nukes or the destruction of production facilities. Totally for the anti-aircraft gun projects and the coal global warming debuff, after all, I'm a nuke nation. Go nukes.. It'd make for a much more fascinating scenario, that's for certain. I've played nation sims for over a decade. You seem to think a 9 month project or wait time would put me off, it wouldn't And I like to think there are others like me who are long term planners. You seem to think these things would hurt the NPO or our planning or our methods. Thus why you hit on these topics, or maybe you genuinely are suggesting these.. either way, they work for me because I know one fundamental fact when it comes to the NPO: We will thrive whatever environment we are put in, we will adapt. My only complaint about this one is we have had to adapt to soldier spam cheese. Then again, I suppose this is a good way of making the game playable by a broader base. Enable no-plan simplistic players a grind method as an out to retain relevance. To each their own..

Well, that's the thing about balance? What is it really? To me it's arbitrary. Realism is not arbitrary. Realism works on known functions of actual nations and attempts to emulate them.. and since the game is Politics and War I was under the impression it was what is sought. True, it's a game, but at the end of the day, why do we play? To arbitrarily pump numbers to be better than the next guy or to emulate nation states? In reality, nations get curb stomped all the time by the great powers, there is no sense of balance.. and pirates are pretty much refined to small sections of the African coast. Well, they get curb stomped til the next great alliance comes along and undoes that. Hegemony flux through history. I don't have anything against Arrgh, pirates have their place in the world.. but to think of them as ever being anything other than bait for a greater fleet or power isn't balance, is simply a distortion of reality in an attempt to prop up a few people on bad mechanics. To me, I could not justify my nation built on such strength, I'd leave the game because i'd feel like I'd been cheating the system to be relevant. If I am in a game that somewhat attempts to emulate international and political interactions, I expect some degree of accuracy in the simulation, but as I said, to each their own. Arcade States is fine.

I have no objections to that either! The ones that got carried away are some of the good ones.

Except many games that are extremely successful are antithetical to that statement. I can cite several, but I respect the work done here not to advertise. The only one I have mentioned in passing has a complex battle system but a fairly basic economy, but is mostly dieing or dead, was Nationsgame. It had complex war systems and the game was crazy exciting, people had to actively man battles for up to a week. It was also somewhat brutal in that regard. *chortle* I'm not saying take it that far, I am saying improvements can be made. The only reason it isn't dominant right now is because it was a pet project, not a full blown enterprise, and after a time it was somewhat abandoned by its creator.