a Statment from Hansarius and the United Purple Nations

[Prefonteen]

Is this really your excuse? People can get prepared after about 1 1/2 months. Considering the fact that some of the damage was rolled back anyway

 

I'm not sure why we are speaking about 'excuses'. tS got dogpiled by a coalition manytimes its size. While ability can often negate relative advantages (See, the Rose-tS duel), wars on Orbis will remain a numbers game. If your coalition is large enough and you do not cock up your blitz entirely, your opponent's military will take enough of a beating in the initial round for you to be able to cruise afterward. That is what happened here, and I feel no shame for it.

 

I'll give kudos to DEIC/BoC/UPN for creating a large enough coalition, and for blitzing us well enough with their mass for us to be unable to overcome that. However, the notion that this somehow diminishes tS' raw fighting ability is silly. I think we have proven ourselves in every war we have fought. I also think that you would not have seen this result in a 1v1 scenario with any of these alliances, and I am fairly certain that that is exactly why our opponents have opted for a combined strike. It is the strategically sound thing to do.

[Jodo]

Won't someone please think of the children?!

[Bollocks]

Is this really your excuse? People can get prepared after about 1 1/2 months. Considering the fact that some of the damage was rolled back anyway

 

I'm not sure if you're an idiot, or an idiot. 

[Alataq]

I'm not sure if you're an idiot, or an idiot.

If you'd like to explain it, then feel free. Otherwise, insulting me isn't going to do much if you have no counter-argument, plus considering the fact you haven't fought in a war before.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Alataq

[Saru]

It seems like this picture needs some clearing up. Slightly off topic, but still.

 

 

I think that we have at this point endured enough smearing, manipulation and deceit from you and yours, Impero. So very well. I will speak publically, as attempts at privately solving this will probably be misconstrued as 'manipulation'.

 

When the leaks occurred, I readily admitted my mistakes and what part I played in the deterioration between tS and VE relations. You placed extreme pressure on tS at the time, in order to force government change over and have me removed from office. Your rationale was that - putting any VE concerns regarding tS aside - UPN was pissed to the point where they were actively looking to roll tS, and that UPN was pushing for my resignation. 

 

 

Given that we had legitimate proof that you were actively looking to take us on, yes we were willing to go after you. However it was VE that asked us to hold off on it at the time, and we obliged.

 

 

Piecing the pieces together: During the period when the leaks had just occurred, and we were attempting to work matters out, VE (Impero) made a variety of claims regarding tS" being a 'brother alliance', and pushed for my resignation on the premise that UPN was on the verge of rolling us. They leveraged this premise to add pressure on tS, in hopes of forcing govt changeover which would inevitably favor VE. The logs with Ole clearly state that this was not the case. That VE brought my resignation up to them, and that VE offered tS to the wolves while negotiations were ongoing. 

 

 

Whatever you seemed to get out of those logs, the truth is that VE actually did have tS's back up until the point you guys cancelled your treaty with them. I believe it was after Impero had spoken to your members in the hope of getting you to resign, that you guys cancelled on them. And after that, they obviously no longer held any sort of obligation, and the bridges were burned. However up until that point declaring on tS was very much a consideration, and VE had told us they would honour the treaty. I was surprised when the cancellation happened, because the signals that we got from VE was that they intended to keep it... but I guess the dialogue between the two parties made it untenable. 

 

 

Our most damning proof comes in the form of the following logs between Ole (UPN) and myself. The logs refer to the period between the leaks, and our cancellation

 

 

Your most damning proof is a guy who pretty much admitted that he didn't know the ins and outs of what went on, as he wasn't heavily involved at the time. 

 

We have, since the war ended, made it explicitly clear to anyone, that tS had no intention of mounting an aggressive war against either Paragon, or UPN. This was relayed to representatives of both blocs, before any imminent threat of war was on the horizon.

 

 

You also made it explicitly clear to me that you weren't planning to attack UPN/tC several months ago -- when infact that was what you were proactively pushing for it. So let's just say that we have no reason to trust what you say, as we have been here before.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Saru

[Beowulf the Second]

@Saru, quick question from the FA noob here- why were you guys listening and cooperating with VE when they were in on the plan to attack you? Legit question, I simply don't know
 

 

Whatever you seemed to get out of those logs, the truth is that VE actually did have tS's back up until the point you guys cancelled your treaty with them. I believe it was after Impero had spoken to your members in the hope of getting you to resign, that you guys cancelled on them. And after that, they obviously no longer held any sort of obligation, and the bridges were burned. However up until that point declaring on tS was very much a consideration, and VE had told us they would honour the treaty. I was surprised when the cancellation happened, because the signals that we got from VE was that they intended to keep it... but I guess the dialogue between the two parties made it untenable. 

I can personally attest that Impero's heartfelt request for us to dump Partisan on our own forums pissed our membership off. A lot. I honestly don't know how he turned us against him so fast, but he did- but I suppose that's a running thing for Impero?

(sorry, i'm sure you can be an alright person Impero, it's just really hard to see sometimes)

Edited October 17, 2015 by Beowulf the Second

[Prefonteen]

It seems like this picture needs some clearing up. Slightly off topic, but still.

 

 

Given that we had legitimate proof that you were actively looking to take us on, yes we were willing to go after you. However it was VE that asked us to hold off on it at the time, and we obliged.

 

 

 

Whatever you seemed to get out of those logs, the truth is that VE actually did have tS's back up until the point you guys cancelled your treaty with them. I believe it was after Impero had spoken to your members in the hope of getting you to resign, that you guys cancelled on them. And after that, they obviously no longer held any sort of obligation, and the bridges were burned. However up until that point declaring on tS was very much a consideration, and VE had told us they would honour the treaty. I was surprised when the cancellation happened, because the signals that we got from VE was that they intended to keep it... but I guess the dialogue between the two parties made it untenable. 

 

 

 

You also made it explicitly clear to me that you weren't planning to attack UPN/tC several months ago -- when infact that was what you were proactively pushing for it. So let's just say that we have no reason to trust what you say, as we have been here before.

 

With regards to your points on having proof on us: Correct, and I have never faulted you one bit for mistrusting us for it at the time, or now. We made attempts to regain some of that trust. It seems it failed. That's unfortunate, but not something we can fault UPN for.

 

I understand that you are now allied to VE, and that you would not openly concur with my statements or proof regardless of where the proof lies. We are your enemy and there is no benefit for you in handing me anything when it comes to this matter. I will however ask you this: Did VE at the time claim that the notion of rolling the Covenant came entirely from tS, and that VE had never been nor would be interested in war with UPN or the Covenant?

Edited October 17, 2015 by Partisan

[Kevin D]

With regards to your points on having proof on us: Correct, and I have never faulted you one bit for mistrusting us for it at the time, or now. We made attempts to regain some of that trust. It seems it failed. That's unfortunate, but not something we can fault UPN for.

 

I understand that you are now allied to VE, and that you would not openly concur with my statements or proof regardless of where the proof lies. We are your enemy and there is no benefit for you in handing me anything when it comes to this matter. I will however ask you this: Did VE at the time claim that the notion of rolling the Covenant came entirely from tS, and that VE had never been nor would be interested in war with UPN or the Covenant?

Your politics bore me. JUST FIGHT!!!!

[Spooner]

You also made it explicitly clear to me that you weren't planning to attack UPN/tC several months ago -- when infact that was what you were proactively pushing for it. So let's just say that we have no reason to trust what you say, as we have been here before.

 

I can't speak for our friend in tS, but in our forums, we proactively consider attacking a good deal of people. Sometimes even advocate for it. That doesn't mean, however, that we are planning on doing so.

 

Heck, back in the day tS and MENSA weren't on the best of terms. I believe a few people considered attacking them in one of our earliest wars. However, now we're one of the stronger friendships in this game -- we'd go to war against staggering odds for them, and I'm certain they would do the same.

 

I don't understand why UPN is still salty about this. Your alliance swore up & down to MENSA that you weren't planning to attack tS. However, your alliance continued to build your military and blitzed them a few days later. How your post is not hypocritical is beyond me.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Syrup

[Prefonteen]

Your politics bore me. JUST FIGHT!!!!

 

I'm practising multitasking

[Kevin D]

I'm practising multitasking

That works too.

[Saru]

I can't speak for our friend in tS, but in our forums, we proactively consider attacking a good deal of people. Sometimes even advocate for it. That doesn't mean, however, that we are planning on doing so.

 

Heck, back in the day tS and MENSA weren't on the best of terms. I believe a few people considered attacking them in one of our earliest wars. However, now we're one of the stronger friendships in this game -- we'd go to war against staggering odds for them, and I'm certain they would do the same.

 

I don't understand why UPN is still salty about this. Your alliance swore up & down to MENSA that you weren't planning to attack tS. However, your alliance continued to build your military and blitzed them a few days later. How your post is not hypocritical is beyond me.

 

 

There is a difference between hypotheticals and plans being proactively pushed into action. We fully expect people to consider all possibilities. But at the point where you start preparing to go on the offense, is when it is no longer just a hypothetical.

 

I told Pfeiffer that we are willing to put our concerns behind us, and willing to move forward. That doesn't mean that we forgot what happened. I promised that we didn't have intentions to attack tS, and we didn't at that point in time... however circumstances change, and our promise was not that we will never react to moves that tS may make. Since then all the indicators have pointed to us that tS still wants to see us fall, and much like last time around, we decided to base our judgement on your actions as opposed to what Partisan preaches to us in the queries.

 

As he admitted himself, he has given us no reason to trust him. And if from our perspective all the signals are pointing towards an inevitable showdown between the two camps, then this time around we are going to make sure it's on our terms, and that tS don't have the satisfaction for it to be on theirs. 

 

* EDIT: I realise that you were referring to the other government members promising that they won't attack. Well I've been away recently, and don't know the ins and outs of that. And if we did outright lie to your face, then I would accept that it was wrong of us. But that aside, it doesn't change anything in the long run, and is really besides the point we are discussing.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Saru

[Saru]

With regards to your points on having proof on us: Correct, and I have never faulted you one bit for mistrusting us for it at the time, or now. We made attempts to regain some of that trust. It seems it failed. That's unfortunate, but not something we can fault UPN for.

 

I understand that you are now allied to VE, and that you would not openly concur with my statements or proof regardless of where the proof lies. We are your enemy and there is no benefit for you in handing me anything when it comes to this matter. I will however ask you this: Did VE at the time claim that the notion of rolling the Covenant came entirely from tS, and that VE had never been nor would be interested in war with UPN or the Covenant?

 

I guess you don't know me very well. But I wouldn't argue for the sake of arguing, or making someone look good. I am just telling you how it is. And it wasn't to contradict you, it was to provide the truth. To give you some context, Ole was hardly involved in our foreign affairs at the time, and it was primarily through me that the VE-UPN dialogue took place. So like I said VE had tS's back all the way up until you guys cancelled on them.

 

And VE never claimed that Paragon/tC weren't natural competitors at that point. That was didn't need to be said, it was obvious to everyone in the world. They did however say that they do not want war with us in the near future, and will not go actively on the offensive, seeking out any silly justifications to try and hit us/or go for the unprovoked preempt.

[Kastor]

This back and forth is boring.

[Diocletian]

This back and forth is boring.

 

inb4 multi's kill the shitposting buzz

[Prefonteen]

There is a difference between hypotheticals and plans being proactively pushed into action. We fully expect people to consider all possibilities. But at the point where you start preparing to go on the offense, is when it is no longer just a hypothetical.

 

I told Pfeiffer that we are willing to put our concerns behind us, and willing to move forward. That doesn't mean that we forgot what happened. I promised that we didn't have intentions to attack tS, and we didn't at that point in time... however circumstances change, and our promise was not that we will never react to moves that tS may make. Since then all the indicators have pointed to us that tS still wants to see us fall, and much like last time around, we decided to base our judgement on your actions as opposed to what Partisan preaches to us in the queries.

 

As he admitted himself, he has given us no reason to trust him. And if from our perspective all the signals are pointing towards an inevitable showdown between the two camps, then this time around we are going to make sure it's on our terms, and that tS don't have the satisfaction for it to be on theirs. 

 

* EDIT: I realise that you were referring to the other government members promising that they won't attack. Well I've been away recently, and don't know the ins and outs of that. And if we did outright lie to your face, then I would accept that it was wrong of us. But that aside, it doesn't change anything in the long run, and is really besides the point we are discussing.

 

I have admitted that I understand your rationale, and that I do not blame you for it. Besides the leaks, we have done everything in our power to normalize relations. You have decided not to give us the light of day, and that is your prerogative. We don't fault you for it.

 

As for 'our actions': I don't think you can equate consolidating a sphere and preparing for a defensive scenario based on a threat of war (see: Rumors etc. Re: VE and UPN linking up to attack tS) to 'wanting to see you fall'. We were approached by multiple parties to mount for an offensive. We have told each and every one of them that we felt threatened by both Paragon (VE) and Covenant (UPN) and we would sit back and see what the other spheres would do.

 

You have played your cards and now you have shown your hand. That is fine. It is however, tiring to keep hearing the same empty rhetoric regarding the inherent 'evil' nature which we apparently posess, when in reality, these are simple realpolitik moves - both politically and in terms of PR - being conducted on your end. Own up to it. There is nothing bad about it. But stop hiding behind the idea of moral superiority.

 

 

 

EDIT: Didn't see the double post. Disregard this

 

I was hoping that you would answer the question in my previous post:

 

 

 

I will however ask you this: Did VE at the time claim that the notion of rolling the Covenant came entirely from tS, and that VE had never been nor would be interested in war with UPN or the Covenant? 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Partisan

[Saru]

I have admitted that I understand your rationale, and that I do not blame you for it. Besides the leaks, we have done everything in our power to normalize relations. You have decided not to give us the light of day, and that is your prerogative. We don't fault you for it.

 

 

 

I was hoping that you would answer the question in my previous post:

 

I will however ask you this: Did VE at the time claim that the notion of rolling the Covenant came entirely from tS, and that VE had never been nor would be interested in war with UPN or the Covenant?

 

If we had chosen not to give you the light of day, we just simply would not reply to you. That was not the case.

 

In regards to your accusation that we are just as "realpolitik" as you. Instead of going around in circles, I will let individuals make up their own mind.

 

As for your question. I believe I already answered it. Once VE joined Paragon, it was clear that tC/Paragon were the natural competitors. The question that remained was how long it would take for us to clash and under what circumstances. All three alliances promised us they weren't looking to go on the offensive, anytime soon atleast. All the information that we have points to tS being the only ones actively pushing it, talks of hypotheticals aside.

[Prefonteen]

I guess you don't know me very well. But I wouldn't argue for the sake of arguing, or making someone look good. I am just telling you how it is. And it wasn't to contradict you, it was to provide the truth. To give you some context, Ole was hardly involved in our foreign affairs at the time, and it was primarily through me that the VE-UPN dialogue took place. So like I said VE had tS's back all the way up until you guys cancelled on them.

 

And VE never claimed that Paragon/tC weren't natural competitors at that point. That was didn't need to be said, it was obvious to everyone in the world. They did however say that they do not want war with us in the near future, and will not go actively on the offensive, seeking out any silly justifications to try and hit us/or go for the unprovoked preempt.

 

And they told you this *after* the leaks, correct?

 

Now I may be going off on a limb, but could it possibly be so, that they have attempted to wash their hands clean of the notion in hopes of getting back in your good grace? It rather fits the profile of what I have witnessed thusfar. 

[Prefonteen]

If we had chosen not to give you the light of day, we just simply would not reply to you. That was not the case.

 

In regards to your accusation that we are just as "realpolitik" as you. Instead of going around in circles, I will let individuals make up their own mind.

 

As for your question. I believe I already answered it. Once VE joined Paragon, it was clear that tC/Paragon were the natural competitors. The question that remained was how long it would take for us to clash and under what circumstances. All three alliances promised us they weren't looking to go on the offensive, anytime soon atleast. All the information that we have points to tS being the only ones actively pushing it, talks of hypotheticals aside.

 

The problem with your logic is that the notion was on our agenda since the moment Paragon formed. Our timeline for when to be ready to organize it was set as well. tS made the mistake of *prematurely* pushing it. That does *not* mean that we were *singlehandedly* pushing it.

 

Now, instead of talking in circles, I will take the effort of trying to retrieve the logs (ooc) from my old laptop (ooc) and contact you with those, so you can see for yourself what exactly I am referring to.

[Saru]

And they told you this *after* the leaks, correct?

 

Now I may be going off on a limb, but could it possibly be so, that they have attempted to wash their hands clean of the notion in hopes of getting back in your good grace? It rather fits the profile of what I have witnessed thusfar. 

 

They said that before and after the leaks. To give some more context, VE-UPN were close to signing at one point, but it fell through mainly due to my inactivity at the time, and Impero feeling like he cannot sit on his hands and having to act. So they teamed up with tS/Rose to form Paragon. The next time we had a chat after my short hiatus, it was very clear that the dynamics of the conversation had changed and VE were clear of their newfound allegiance. However whilst we both accepted that we may eventually clash heads in the future, VE gave us guarantees that it would not be on offensive/unprovoked grounds anytime soon. 

[Buorhann]

I'm loving this story time.

[Saru]

The problem with your logic is that the notion was on our agenda since the moment Paragon formed. Our timeline for when to be ready to organize it was set as well. tS made the mistake of *prematurely* pushing it. That does *not* mean that we were *singlehandedly* pushing it.

 

Now, instead of talking in circles, I will take the effort of trying to retrieve the logs (ooc) from my old laptop (ooc) and contact you with those, so you can see for yourself what exactly I am referring to.

 

To me there's very distinct differences between accepting that two competitors will probably have to clash at some point, and one of the two parties proactively trying to make it happen as soon as possible. The latter is obviously a much more immediate and serious threat, as we know that our biggest weapon with the whole tC--Paragon situation will be time. Something VE was allowing us to have, and something you weren't. Besides like I said we had good relations with VE for a long period of time, and we felt like they were always honest with us, even if we didn't necessarily like the direction they were heading in.

 

As for the logs, I believe I know which ones you are referring to. The ones where you and Impero are having a disagreement between focusing on attacking us directly as soon as possible (which you pushed), or as VE wanted to go after TEst and somewhere in that cluster!@#$ of a conversation mentioning that Paragon-tC will most likely fight further down the line?

Edited October 17, 2015 by Saru

[Ayayay]

I'm loving this story time.

You're actually reading this shit? I opened this expecting to see a dozen pages of rage, shitposts, and shitty gifs.

 

#Killthediscussion #Bringouttheshitposts #Howthe!@#$didthiswar!@#$inghappenffsthisisso!@#$ingretardedomfgomfgomfgImsoconfused

[Prefonteen]

They said that before and after the leaks. To give some more context, VE-UPN were close to signing at one point, but it fell through mainly due to my inactivity at the time, and Impero feeling like he cannot sit on his hands and having to act. So they teamed up with tS/Rose to form Paragon. The next time we had a chat after my short hiatus, it was very clear that the dynamics of the conversation had changed and VE were clear of their newfound allegiance. However whilst we both accepted that we may eventually clash heads in the future, VE gave us guarantees that it would not be on offensive/unprovoked grounds anytime soon. 

 

If that is the case, they will have either lied to tS during the period we were allied, or to you. 

[Prefonteen]

To me there's very distinct differences between accepting that two competitors will probably have to clash at some point, and one of the two parties proactively trying to make it happen as soon as possible. The latter is obviously a much more immediate and serious threat, as we know that our biggest weapon with the whole tC--Paragon situation will be time. Something VE was allowing us to have, and something you weren't. Besides like I said we had good relations with VE for a long period of time, and we felt like they were always honest with us, even if we didn't necessarily like the direction they were heading in.

 

As for the logs, I believe I know which ones you are referring to. The ones where you and Impero are having a disagreement between focusing on attacking us directly as soon as possible (which you pushed), or as VE wanted to go after TEst and somewhere in that cluster!@#$ of a conversation mentioning that Paragon-tC will most likely fight further down the line?

 

You are right that VE was willing to allow you more time than I was. A large part of my motivation for that was entirely strategic: Time *was* your friend. That is a matter of differing in method. Not intent. As for that conversation: It is one of the conversations I could refer to. I'll happily grab a few more explicit ones. The one where VE wanted to go after TEst before going after UPN, while I looked to go for UPN while leaving TEst be was a private query. I am referencing joint Paragon talks from right when we formed.