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TDX Ministry of Economics Internal Investigative Report


Will Golay
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Yes it is very possible, he was making that much during the VE War.

 

ALSO: THE DOCUMENT HAS BEEN UPDATED TO INCLUDE THE PROPER TAX INCOME RATES. THIS SHOULD DISPROVE ANY OF THE POINTS MADE HERE IN THE REPLIES.

 

I also deleted the other nations since the community has primarily been focusing on Last187 and no one was discussing the other nations. Since Sheepy didn't list them we also can't be entirely sure they were banned for the same reason. PLEASE READ THE UPDATED DOCUMENT BEFORE MAKING MORE COMMENTS.

Great. Now factor in the cost of his infra purchasing for his own cities plus the costs of projects built (I believe itc was built during this time as well as vds)

 

Additionally your 50m figure for his 12th city is far too low. 12th city at 95%, 3000 infra, 2500 land without ANY improvement purchases is almost 110m. This 12th city undervalue by your report entirely erases your 47m surplus you report. To further add, his cities were well beyond 3k each...I believe they were at 3400 each. 3k to 3400 would cost almost 24m per city (to give you an idea on the cost of his infra growth)

 

Please comment and explain how you would have had no idea this time with proper12th city costs and infra growth considered.

 

oh...and there is also the small issue where he built a 13th city to 3000+ infra during this time as well but hey...let's call that a freebie since it doesn't add up anyway.

 

Thank you!

 

I also take issue with you saying no official could have possibly known/calculated he was cheating based on these figures. If you would read through one of the two threads I posted in regarding his cheating PRIOR to this growth program you'll see that I did exactly that. Oh wait nobody in your 10+ govt body saw it that I'm to believe). Nevermind. I forgot everything can be explained by having your head in the sand

Edited by seabasstion
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Great. Now factor in the cost of his infra purchasing for his own cities plus the costs of projects built (I believe itc was built during this time as well as vds)

 

Additionally your 50m figure for his 12th city is far too low. 12th city at 95%, 3000 infra, 2500 land without ANY improvement purchases is almost 110m. This 12th city undervalue by your report entirely erases your 47m surplus you report. To further add, his cities were well beyond 3k each...I believe they were at 3400 each. 3k to 3400 would cost almost 24m per city (to give you an idea on the cost of his infra growth)

 

Please comment and explain how you would have had no idea this time with proper12th city costs and infra growth considered.

 

oh...and there is also the small issue where he built a 13th city to 3000+ infra during this time as well but hey...let's call that a freebie since it doesn't add up anyway.

 

Thank you!

 

I also take issue with you saying no official could have possibly known/calculated he was cheating based on these figures. If you would read through one of the two threads I posted in regarding his cheating PRIOR to this growth program you'll see that I did exactly that. Oh wait nobody in your 10+ govt body saw it that I'm to believe). Nevermind. I forgot everything can be explained by having your head in the sand

The simple fact is, even if I do consider those numbers, I don't have the time to micromanage every nation in the alliance like this. Sure, with those considerations, it would appear that there was evidence that he cheated, but looking at the time it took just to come up with this information and expecting me to multiply that out to 50 other nations is an absolutely ridiculous standard to hold ANY alliance to. If you have a more efficient system of determining all of these things as they come up, let me know because for just one nation it took me a large amount of time to come up with this. Including the numbers you just provided might mean that there was some evidence somewhere in the bank records, however, no alliance or person has the time to put this together for 50 nations in an alliance. Thinking realistically, there was evidence, but to expect alliances to scour records like this is absolutely ridiculous. At this point, sure there was evidence, but the time it took to find it was too much to hold to any alliance. If you like crunching numbers like this, then you can go ahead and do it, and I don't have an issue with that. However, you can't expect everyone else to be just like you and spend countless hours making sure everyone in their alliance isn't cheating.

 

EDIT: I didn't have access to P&A when those threads were posted because I was overseas. I had no control over this, my absence was just ill-timed. I didn't see them until it was too late. 

Edited by Will Golay

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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I'm just letting you know that if you are trying to use a mathematical justification on how your alliance couldn't have known he was cheating than you actually need to account for big things like multiple 50m plus expenditures you've left out.

 

Especially when you use this highly incomplete analysis to try and "prove" there was no reason to suspect cheating when you were "taking all the necessary precautions"

 

1. you weren't. This all came after the fact so I think it is safe to assume there were no checks done during the Middle of this based on Morgan's comments.

 

2. I don't check every nation as well. But if they're self funding my entire alliances growth plan while still building new cities into the 3000+ infra range you can bet I would look into that.

 

3. It wouldn't "appear" he cheated when you actually consider all of his costs. He DID cheat. Didn't he admit it? You still talk like this is a questionable allegations.

 

We know he cheated

we know he funded the growth program

therefore..... (I'll let you finish this thought)

 

I agree it is ridiculous to track every nation to the penny but when you consider that,again, two public threads show these figures for you BEFORE the growth program took place I have a very hard time believing your claim that "necessary precautions" took place.

 

After all that is what you are trying to accomplish with this report right? ... To convince people that last187 was simply so good at covering your tracks that nobody could have possibly noticed?

 

To that I say no way Jose. BEST case scenario you guys are unbelievably naive driven by the winds of your monumental ignorance to allow this to happen.

 

I believe you personally may have not known but that still doesn't make it any better nor any less obvious.

 

I'm much more suspicious of Morgan's actions but it isn't singular nations you are trying to lift reasonable responsibility from, but rather the whole alliance. To that I scoff my mightiest scoffs that any work/ possible analysis was done to prevent this while there absolutely were blatant signs of cheating.

 

I'm not trying to be insulting (but I'm sure I am) your govt is either cheating or unbelievably dim. To say that a reasonable person couldn't have spotted these signs AND that you were (what the tone of your paper suggests) is simply untruthful.

Edited by seabasstion
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If this had happened to be a bug in the code, where I screwed up, I would totally agree with you. The fact of the matter is that these exploiters weren't even exploiters -- they actually hacked into the database. Like, legitimately brute forced the password and got in, which is a felony crime afaik. We've doubled down on security since, but it's not as simple as saying I left something wide open to be abused in the code.

 

/rant, go back to your (attempted) IC discussion

I made it more clear in my last post. 

BTW none of these threads are IC since they're all about cheating.

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I'm just letting you know that if you are trying to use a mathematical justification on how your alliance couldn't have known he was cheating than you actually need to account for big things like multiple 50m plus expenditures you've left out.

 

Especially when you use this highly incomplete analysis to try and "prove" there was no reason to suspect cheating when you were "taking all the necessary precautions"

 

1. you weren't. This all came after the fact so I think it is safe to assume there were no checks done during the Middle of this based on Morgan's comments.

 

2. I don't check every nation as well. But if they're self funding my entire alliances growth plan while still building new cities into the 3000+ infra range you can bet I would look into that.

 

3. It wouldn't "appear" he cheated when you actually consider all of his costs. He DID cheat. Didn't he admit it? You still talk like this is a questionable allegations.

 

We know he cheated

we know he funded the growth program

therefore..... (I'll let you finish this thought)

 

I agree it is ridiculous to track every nation to the penny but when you consider that,again, two public threads show these figures for you BEFORE the growth program took place I have a very hard time believing your claim that "necessary precautions" took place.

 

After all that is what you are trying to accomplish with this report right? ... To convince people that last187 was simply so good at covering your tracks that nobody could have possibly noticed?

 

To that I say no way Jose. BEST case scenario you guys are unbelievably naive driven by the winds of your monumental ignorance to allow this to happen.

 

I believe you personally may have not known but that still doesn't make it any better nor any less obvious.

 

I'm much more suspicious of Morgan's actions but it isn't singular nations you are trying to lift reasonable responsibility from, but rather the whole alliance. To that I scoff my mightiest scoffs that any work/ possible analysis was done to prevent this while there absolutely were blatant signs of cheating.

 

I'm not trying to be insulting (but I'm sure I am) your govt is either cheating or unbelievably dim. To say that a reasonable person couldn't have spotted these signs AND that you were (what the tone of your paper suggests) is simply untruthful.

Fair enough. However, I can say that we had been tracking nation's income for a long time. When I saw Last's income level and his growth rate the cities he was building at the time seemed reasonable. I'm not saying that him cheating is questionable, I'm saying that the expectation of the alliance to find these minor bits of evidence of cheating is unrealistically high. Yet again, looking at the time it took to come up with just this would be ridiculous do for all the nations funding the program.

 

I realize that we now know he cheated, and that he funded the program, and that this money was dispersed throughout the alliance, and that is why the alliance paid $75 million and 10,000 food for this. Yet again, individual nations who were recipients of a lot of Last's money were also taxed. With more recent figures, the total is now around $200 million worth of resources, infrastructure, cities, and funds have been taken out of the alliance.

 

I also said in my last post that I was out of town when the two public threads were posted and did not have access to P&A in any form. By the time I had read them it was too late for me to do anything. It was only a matter of time until Last and the others were banned, which was very soon after.

 

The goal of the report was to show that either a. there was easily accessible evidence to show cheating for anyone in the alliance b. there wasn't any evidence to show for cheating or c. that there was evidence, however, there was nothing obvious enough to spur a search for evidence, and it would take an unrealistic amount of time to derive. Before you presented your figures, it turned out to be B, but afterwards we still have to go with C since it took such a ridiculous amount of time to come to the point where we were sure he was cheating.

 

Also, if there was so much evidence that there was cheating going on, then you should have reported it. By saying that there is all this evidence of cheating that you could easily see, then this issue would never have happened and Last187 would have been banned much earlier. Further, it's a technical violation of P&A rules to not report suspects of cheating. I did not realize cheating was going on until it was too late and days before Last and the others were banned because I was out of town. I can't speak for other government members directly, but since I normally did the background stuff to prevent cheating it went undetected. This is where the report here comes in, it shows without the extensive background checks that were necessary to derive the evidence of cheating, there was no motive to look for evidence. Since I was the one who normally did these checks, but was out of town, it went undetected. You can't blame anyone for this really, it was just my business trip came at a very unfortunate time.

 

There is really no reason to be suspicious of Morgan, the Skype contacts between the two were really just a discussion of the program, and not much more. Further, I will be doing checks on all members more often from now on. If anyone was cheating, they'll be caught soon. And like I said, the goal of the report was to show that without the extensive checks that I normally did, no one would have caught the cheating.

 

I'm not saying that a reasonable person couldn't have spotted these things. I'm saying that due to the fact that I was absent during the majority of the cheating and where evidence began to show up, and the amount of digging it required to find this cheating, it wasn't found by TDX leadership. To summarize, finding the cheating required extensive in-depth searching, I'm the only one who did this searching normally, I was gone during cheating, cheating went undetected because there was no one to search, Last187 got banned, TDX leadership blamed, and now we're here.

 

You're going after the wrong points here, we know that laundered money circulated through the alliance, but it's been mostly paid back, (as far as I know there's still some investigating going on). I realize that the rest of TDX leadership missed this, but like I said I was literally on the other side of the world when this cheating was happening, and as Minister of Economics I did the income and outcome checks. There was simply no one there to fill the spot.

Edited by Will Golay

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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So if were to tally all the aid given out to existing members would we find that it is less than 200M during this growth period?

 

if it were closer to 400m what would you think is the fair thing to do?

 

Do you realize that for each 100 infra purchased the net income increase is about 20k? Over the course of 30 days that equals an additional 600k per 100 infra bought.

 

Do you think it would be fair to account for this secondary growth and remove these funds as well? After all...if the growth is tainted surely the funds gained from it must be tainted as well correct?

 

Edit: and I did report his cheating. I reported it before your growth period and several times during. It took all of five minutes for me to firmly conclude artificial funds were being introduced at some point. In not sure why you're trying to put the onus of reporting on me but Suffice to say I hit your target several times

 

Also I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm using you in the sense of tdx as a whole, specifically the govt

Edited by seabasstion
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Personally I think the fact you had easy access to finding out his income (which you said you track) and next to that you have his claim of weekly income surely you would see these are crazily far apart from each other, which would be strong evidence for your scenario a to be true.

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So if were to tally all the aid given out to existing members would we find that it is less than 200M during this growth period?

 

if it were closer to 400m what would you think is the fair thing to do?

 

Do you realize that for each 100 infra purchased the net income increase is about 20k? Over the course of 30 days that equals an additional 600k per 100 infra bought.

 

Do you think it would be fair to account for this secondary growth and remove these funds as well? After all...if the growth is tainted surely the funds gained from it must be tainted as well correct?

 

Edit: and I did report his cheating. I reported it before your growth period and several times during. It took all of five minutes for me to firmly conclude artificial funds were being introduced at some point. In not sure why you're trying to put the onus of reporting on me but Suffice to say I hit your target several times

 

Also I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm using you in the sense of tdx as a whole, specifically the govt

No one in TDX had a say in what was taken out of their nations other than suggesting to Sheepy that funds were taken. He made all the judgements for what was appropriate to be taken out of each nation. If you have an issue with the remaining funds and the advantage gained by them you'll have to talk to Sheepy about that, we (TDX) didn't make the decision for what was taken out of our nations.

 

I wasn't aware of the reports. Also, if you have methods for determining if artificial funds were being generated, please share them because I know TDX and other alliances are interested in preventing being involved in something like this again.

 

Yeah, that makes sense. These are just kind of my general responses to the community, so don't take it personally. (I just mentioned the reporting thing because there was a nation in TDX that claims to have known all along and just decided not to report it to anyone.)

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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Personally I think the fact you had easy access to finding out his income (which you said you track) and next to that you have his claim of weekly income surely you would see these are crazily far apart from each other, which would be strong evidence for your scenario a to be true.

I didn't have his claim of weekly income. Where you saw that was the personal exchanges between Morgan and Last187, I had no idea he was claiming that. Also, he could've just been flat out lying. 

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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I wasn't aware of the reports. Also, if you have methods for determining if artificial funds were being generated, please share them because I know TDX and other alliances are interested in preventing being involved in something like this again.

 

i feel like im in a time warp but ok - here are highlights from the two threads ive referenced several times

 

here is my very first post on the subject. i needed something to do since i was stuck in blockade/war hell and this type of data analysis is right up my alley. plus i had good info to make informed decisions with my long term record keeping:

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6567-is-last187-cheating/?p=106081

 

where i first start to question where all of these resources came from. note this was during the VE war and after he had militarized so heavily. i havent fully yet deemed him a cheater after learning he had upwards of 40M starting cash (which my initial model would support)

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6567-is-last187-cheating/?p=106105

 

i start to reply to both threads at once now:

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6567-is-last187-cheating/?p=106179

 

this is probably the most in depth going item by item showing it doesnt resolve: no doubt in my mind he his cheating

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6569-potential-multis/?p=106349

 

i also like this where i compare his relative infra values to others in the game:

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6569-potential-multis/?p=106412

 

here i continue to press him that it is mathematically impossible for him to have sustained this rate of growth

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6569-potential-multis/?p=106661

 

HERE ARE THINGS NOT PUBLICLY AVAILABLE

 

here is a private communication with sheepy a few days later after all this

http://i.imgur.com/IUt5pzy.jpg

 

here is a second a few days before his banning

http://i.imgur.com/tp3RVoh.png

 

all this wasn't done with some advanced program i built/used. it is simple accounting and common sense but there you go...that's most of my relevant reports in one easy to find spot

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i feel like im in a time warp but ok - here are highlights from the two threads ive referenced several times

 

here is my very first post on the subject. i needed something to do since i was stuck in blockade/war hell and this type of data analysis is right up my alley. plus i had good info to make informed decisions with my long term record keeping:

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6567-is-last187-cheating/?p=106081

 

where i first start to question where all of these resources came from. note this was during the VE war and after he had militarized so heavily. i havent fully yet deemed him a cheater after learning he had upwards of 40M starting cash (which my initial model would support)

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6567-is-last187-cheating/?p=106105

 

i start to reply to both threads at once now:

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6567-is-last187-cheating/?p=106179

 

this is probably the most in depth going item by item showing it doesnt resolve: no doubt in my mind he his cheating

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6569-potential-multis/?p=106349

 

i also like this where i compare his relative infra values to others in the game:

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6569-potential-multis/?p=106412

 

here i continue to press him that it is mathematically impossible for him to have sustained this rate of growth

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/6569-potential-multis/?p=106661

 

HERE ARE THINGS NOT PUBLICLY AVAILABLE

 

here is a private communication with sheepy a few days later after all this

http://i.imgur.com/IUt5pzy.jpg

 

here is a second a few days before his banning

http://i.imgur.com/tp3RVoh.png

 

all this wasn't done with some advanced program i built/used. it is simple accounting and common sense but there you go...that's most of my relevant reports in one easy to find spot

I'll have to read all that and use similar models if there's another suspect for cheating. Seems like you were right so it'll be a good template to work off of. Really to summarize why these things were missed was because I was in the UK at the wrong time. If I was here, TDX probably wouldn't have been involved with this. Hopefully the rest of the community will calm down now. 

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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Great. Now factor in the cost of his infra purchasing for his own cities plus the costs of projects built (I believe itc was built during this time as well as vds)

 

Additionally your 50m figure for his 12th city is far too low. 12th city at 95%, 3000 infra, 2500 land without ANY improvement purchases is almost 110m. This 12th city undervalue by your report entirely erases your 47m surplus you report. To further add, his cities were well beyond 3k each...I believe they were at 3400 each. 3k to 3400 would cost almost 24m per city (to give you an idea on the cost of his infra growth)

 

Please comment and explain how you would have had no idea this time with proper12th city costs and infra growth considered.

 

oh...and there is also the small issue where he built a 13th city to 3000+ infra during this time as well but hey...let's call that a freebie since it doesn't add up anyway.

 

Thank you!

 

I also take issue with you saying no official could have possibly known/calculated he was cheating based on these figures. If you would read through one of the two threads I posted in regarding his cheating PRIOR to this growth program you'll see that I did exactly that. Oh wait nobody in your 10+ govt body saw it that I'm to believe). Nevermind. I forgot everything can be explained by having your head in the sand

 

As a Colts fan I can say, unequivocally, that you're obviously as clueless as I am.  /sarcasm

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There is one conclusion we can draw from this thread: Terradoxia government are absolutely incompetent. Sheepy went so easy on you that you should be renaming your nations after breeds of sheep. He should have seized your alliance and all its assets, fined each nation 50% of its net worth and then dared you to complain about it. There is literally not one penny of value in any Terradoxia nation that isn't tainted by a "growth program" funded by a real lifel felony violation of 18 USC 1030. 

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There is one conclusion we can draw from this thread: Terradoxia government are absolutely incompetent. Sheepy went so easy on you that you should be renaming your nations after breeds of sheep. He should have seized your alliance and all its assets, fined each nation 50% of its net worth and then dared you to complain about it. There is literally not one penny of value in any Terradoxia nation that isn't tainted by a "growth program" funded by a real lifel felony violation of 18 USC 1030. 

Still stuck on it eh? I mean, what did I expect from Mensa? Huh. Sheepy judged what he thought to be right. If you have an issue with that, I dare YOU to take it up with him. Tell me what he says, I'm kind of curious. 

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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TBH I supported Terradoxia getting off lightly because I thought you guys were actually going to do something about it and roll Terradoxia, but if you guys are just going to be lazy and ask the mods to get involved, here's the problem.

 

Either:

 

1. Terradoxia government was actively aware of black funds entering their financial system, and they implicitly condoned it by never reporting it to Sheepy, in which case, they are part of the cheating network and deserve to be punished.

 

2. Terradoxia government was grossly negligent in handling last187's injection of hacked cash, in that minimal scrutiny was placed on what would otherwise be considered a suspicious event, even after multiple players cottoned on to it and began reporting it on the forums.

 

In the former case, I would rather that they not be mass banned, but let's not have that argument again; under the present moderation regime the punishment would be suspension, deletion, both, or banning.

 

In the latter case, simply because the level of negligence was so severe and the offense ignored so grave (exploiting is one thing, and often understandable, but hacking the server is whole different game), Terradoxia, whether it be its government, or its members at the time, deserves some level of punishment, instead of simply saying "we're !@#$ing retarded ostriches and we didn't see anything" and getting off scot-free. The punishment might not be to the same level as in actively covering up large-scale exploiting, but there needs to be a deterrent against people covering up not only cheating but hacking and claiming they didn't know anything about it.

 

It is extremely hard to prove the former case, but if the former case is untrue, then the latter case must be true and people in Terradoxia deserve sanctions, and if the latter case is false, the former case is true and people deserve suspensions, deletions, both, or bannings.

 

Back to punishing the latter case, I'd suggest a 5% tax (I was thinking 10% or 15%, which are much more easily-felt, but if it's back and forth and applies to both income and expenses, wouldn't it be effectively 10%? I have no clue, if you like it, you tell me) on all transactions for 2-4 weeks made by players who were members of Terradoxia when the cheating was discovered and resolved. As you well know, I'm pretty ignorant about all this gameplay business, but there needs to be an appreciable, but minimal, punishment for negligence to either Terradoxia as a whole (because you had all those eyeballs not seeing anything and all those mouths not saying anything) or to the government for almost willful negligence.

Edited by Inst
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Still stuck on it eh? I mean, what did I expect from Mensa? Huh. Sheepy judged what he thought to be right. If you have an issue with that, I dare YOU to take it up with him. Tell me what he says, I'm kind of curious. 

 

^lol. Coming from the guy who was trying to justify his leadership being inactive and ignorant. OOOOOOkkkkkkaaaaayyyyyyy.

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Guest hawkeye

The entire alliance should be reset due to exploiting.

 

Morgan, the fact you can obviously lie here shows that you're a sinner. You should repent and confess to taking cash willingly and face the reset, going down the path you are just harms you even more.

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