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TDX Ministry of Economics Internal Investigative Report


Will Golay
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Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1llfipTdjOLmwCeFO6HhdmoH4hMP9zu5t91958g4oBC4/edit?usp=sharing

 

I'll be answering any questions you may have in the comments. This was an entirely independent investigation. Should be the first time the majority of TDX sees this.

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1llfipTdjOLmwCeFO6HhdmoH4hMP9zu5t91958g4oBC4/edit?usp=sharing

 

I'll be answering any questions you may have in the comments. This was an entirely independent investigation. Should be the first time the majority of TDX sees this.

this got sadder

 

 

Peace will never be accomplished without war, but war cannot happen without peace.... or something like that idk

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At least this provides math that can be verified versus logs that can easily be manipulated.  And from reading, it does make a decent case that the alliance couldn't have been expected to know from the bank transactions alone that there was any cheating going on.  Of course there could be other ways for them to know, but I'm unsure of just how much responsibility we should assign to alliances to actually police their members.  I mean is it reasonable to expect alliances to constantly scrutinize the trade activity of all of their members for instance?

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This isn't even the only problem with these sums. You're completely ignoring the money he put in to his nation growth over the same time period, multiple cities and at least a thousand infra per city.(which alone is 50 Mil per city, or 600 Mil for 12)

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Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1llfipTdjOLmwCeFO6HhdmoH4hMP9zu5t91958g4oBC4/edit?usp=sharing

 

I'll be answering any questions you may have in the comments. This was an entirely independent investigation. Should be the first time the majority of TDX sees this.

 

 

Written by a member of TDX... trololololol

☾☆

Warrior of Dio

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[02:12] <~Sheepy> Whoops
[02:12] <~Sheepy> It's not my place to post in there
[02:12] <~Sheepy> http://pastebin.com/uRdKLFc0but this is the response I had typed up
[02:12] <Shellhound> Sheepy, you can't say something after you ignored my request to skype you.
[02:12] <~Sheepy> Will someone please post something similar at least, and call them out on their faulty math
[02:13] <~Sheepy> Using his most recent tax record is ridiuclous
 
 
Sheepy wants you to read the pastebin.

 

 

 

 

  1. I know it's not my place to post in the Alliance Affairs subforum, however since this is relevant to game mechanics and cheating:
  2.  
  3. To determine if the funds received by Last187 were legitimate, after each bank transaction we determine his total funds, assuming he came into Terradoxia with no funds whatsoever. However, to compensate for this, we will be using his most recent tax record to determine his income and use this as a constant throughout the report. 

     

     

  4. Page 4 of the report
  5.  
  6. When you calculate Last187's income, you're using his latest tax record. You're assuming he made as much money when he was banned as he did when he joined the alliance? His nation did not increase in size at any point during the time he was in your alliance? It's not as if he was making that much money the entire time he was in the alliance, was he?
  7. Unless I'm missing something, the logic applied to basically all of the calculations in your report is faulty, and must be looked upon as such.
Edited by Isolatar
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[02:12] <~Sheepy> http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/forum/42-alliance-affairs/

[02:12] <~Sheepy> Whoops

[02:12] <~Sheepy> http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7352-tdx-ministry-of-economics-internal-investigative-report/

[02:12] <~Sheepy> It's not my place to post in there

[02:12] <~Sheepy> http://pastebin.com/uRdKLFc0but this is the response I had typed up

[02:12] <Shellhound> Sheepy, you can't say something after you ignored my request to skype you.

[02:12] <~Sheepy> Will someone please post something similar at least, and call them out on their faulty math

[02:13] <~Sheepy> Using his most recent tax record is ridiuclous

 

 

Sheepy wants you to read the pastebin.

That's the very same spot I stopped at. Will, you're assuming 0 growth over two months time when everyone who's kept half an eye on the situation knows better. Edited by Phaik
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I guarantee you calculate in all his trades between that growth period that it will be negative because there is no way he was making 5m in resources (per day) with like what 11-12 cities? 

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I don't think we can solely blame Terradoxia for incompetence, after all it is the incompetence of the game admin which lead to this cheating and the amount of time it lasted. 

I made my points in the other thread but at the end of the day it's not the job of Terradoxia to go digging around in really just the past month to see if their top nation was somehow cheating. 

It reminds of last year back in May when a member of a major alliance was also caught cheating and banned much like Last187, there is not really much difference and most of the community was clueless that the nation was cheating and funding his alliance also. 

 

I know most of the people around here are probably relativity new to cheating like this but that generally is how it works, no one really knows until someone exposes it.

Personally if it was me I would have known he was cheating with the figures because I like to investigate things. 

It's unrealistic to expect people with real lives to waste time to see if a person is cheating in a game meant for enjoyment. 

seabasstio, you clearly enjoy throwing figures and numbers everywhere you go but basically next to no one shares that passion with you and don't run numbers and figures themselves since they probably have better things to do with their lives. 

Edited by Clarke

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Fair points but if an alliance will be funding their growth program when someone is making more than 3x the next biggest nation in their alliance (when they aren't 3x bigger) I think it becomes their responsibility to question that. Tdx as a whole benefited from this.

 

But that point aside, there is still the undeniable fact that this growth program used exploited money. Just because there is an extra step where money was cheated in to one nation and then sent out by aid doesn't really make it any different if money were just spawned in those nations to begin with.

 

I personally don't care one way or another if tdx govt knew. The program used cheated money and that's enough for me to know that any attempts like this thread to justify the actions/funding is a complete waste of time. The responsibility of checking for cheaters is a completely separate issue

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it is the incompetence of the game admin which lead to this cheating and the amount of time it lasted.

 

It's the victims fault eh?  You'd be great on a jury at a rape trial.

 

Nothing to do with a cheating scumbag committing criminal activity by bruteforce hacking.

 

Of course security can be tightened and no doubt has been but saying it is the victims fault is just plain wrong.

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It's the victims fault eh?  You'd be great on a jury at a rape trial.

 

Nothing to do with a cheating scumbag committing criminal activity by bruteforce hacking.

 

Of course security can be tightened and no doubt has been but saying it is the victims fault is just plain wrong.

It's a bit of a stretch to say Sheepy is the victim, the only real victims here are the innocent people who had their worth devalued due to a nation cheating. 

And the reason that happened is because Sheepy... I don't even know as Last187 has being on the radar for cheaters for at least 2 months.

Hell Sheepy even had him in his private group of game advisers. 

 

But yeah comparing Sheepy to a rape victim is really not doing ignorant towards a rape victim. 

Edited by Clarke
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It's a bit of a sketch to say Sheepy is the victim, the only real victims here are the innocent people who had their worth devalued due to a nation cheating. 

And the reason that happened is because Sheepy... I don't even know as Last187 has being on the radar for cheaters for at least 2 months.

Hell Sheepy even had him in his private group of game advisers. 

 

But yeah comparing Sheepy to a rape victim is really not doing ignorant towards a rape victim. 

 

There is a long history of unjustified victim blaming with that crime and that's why I used it as an example.

 

It's Sheepy's game on his server and it was hacked.  Of course he is the victim.  Not the only one effected but it's his intellectual property that was violated.  It also potentially has much more effect on Sheepy than anyone else, as this type of thing could have many detrimental knock on effects, including financial ones.

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There is a long history of unjustified victim blaming with that crime and that's why I used it as an example.

 

It's Sheepy's game on his server and it was hacked.  Of course he is the victim.  Not the only one effected but it's his intellectual property that was violated.  It also potentially has much more effect on Sheepy than anyone else, as this type of thing could have many detrimental knock on effects, including financial ones.

Reading this I forgot how we even got to this, it literally has nothing to do with my thoughts on the matter. 

I think I see where you're coming from, a girl didn't ask to be raped by being attractive and sheepy didn't ask to be hacked by having weak security. 

 

Personally I don't see a victim much in IP, it depends on the factors involved for me and they doesn't result in Sheepy being a victim. 

But I can see why you compared it to rape since people some of the time and especially in the past don't or didn't see a victim. 

But ultimately rape is physical assault and someone is hurt drastically, I draw a line between the physical world and virtual world though which is something you don't seem to do. 

Anything that doesn't happen in the physical is taken as not being too serious by loads of people.

But generally I don't believe in comparing computer crimes to real crimes, when companies do but I find it laughable mostly. 

However I do understand your standpoint for seeing Sheepy as a victim. 

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[02:12] <~Sheepy> Whoops
[02:12] <~Sheepy> It's not my place to post in there
[02:12] <~Sheepy> http://pastebin.com/uRdKLFc0but this is the response I had typed up
[02:12] <Shellhound> Sheepy, you can't say something after you ignored my request to skype you.
[02:12] <~Sheepy> Will someone please post something similar at least, and call them out on their faulty math
[02:13] <~Sheepy> Using his most recent tax record is ridiuclous
 
 
Sheepy wants you to read the pastebin.

 

I see his point. I will be making adjustments.

 

If I ever get audited by the IRS I sure hope they don't look at my income now and ask why I wasn't paying taxes on that figure 10 years ago.

 

Why didn't you guys scroll back and find several timepoints on tax records to actually make a valid mathematical argument?

 

Oh I know...when I ran his economics with my own records of his during this timeframe it failed to reconcile.

 

Either you didn't think to do this, which means there are another crop of tdx government with the same ability

 

Or

 

You did do this and saw it failed and then reworked the numbers to suit your needs (channeling your inner Enron?)

 

Or you knew you should use older data but didn't anyway since you are either too lazy to do it or it was too difficult of a concept to have a moving variable.

 

No matter what option, this means absolutely nothing and was a waste of time on your part. Either the people behind this commission are just as bad as basic math/observation as everyone else in govt in tdx or they are trying to pull a fast one on us.

 

I understand you guys want to hold onto your pixels as much as possible but your attempts are very very weak. You very well know last187 was growing during that time. I surely hope you aren't trying to separate his growth/donations into two pies where the donation pie is 100% real money and his growth is 100% illegitimate money (which is what I think this is attempting to do) because it doesn't work that way

 

Last187 cheated in money

last187 donated to growth program

Therefore

Growth program used cheated money

 

We aren't splitting the atom here guys. I'm sure a lot of tdx didn't know this was going on but unfortunately for them ignorance is not a valid excuse to a crime. It is illegal to receive/buy stolen property even if you don't know it is. That is why people need to take precautions when buying phones off Craigslist. It was the responsibility of those setting up the growth program to ensure it was run correctly. Either through poor observation or willful cheating this didn't happen and your entire growth program is tainted as a result.

 

Efforts like the original post really make it seem like tdx government was in the know. It is very poor form to give yourself a significant mathematical boost how you have done and try to pass it off as an "independent" study.

 

Tldr: all you're doing is making yourself look worse

 

Edit: holy crap weren't you one of the administrators of the growth program? When I did my two week time period analysis on your growth program Morgan moved about 200m worth of funds to nations and arnor moved about 80m....how can you honestly try to say you are independent when you both transferred and received this growth money???

 

I understand the fact that  the growth program used cheated money. However, this was the purpose of the subtraction of $75 million and 10,000 food from the alliance bank. The growth program of before was tainted, I agree, but after this major subtraction, it has to have been at least slightly reversed. Further, individual nations in the alliance that were innocent were fined further, bringing the total to around $125 million. And like I said before, I'm going to be making changes on the tax record. I'll be using the earliest recorded tax (12 am) for the day of each record. If you would like to suggest a different method, I'm open to ideas. Also, if you did run your own numbers on this, where's your link? I can say I'm independent because of the fact that I was not directed by any TDX leadership and was looking at flat out numbers. This report would still be out here if all of the outcomes were negative. If I end up reworking the numbers using different tax records and something shows up negative, then I'll still keep the report out here. The goal is to show why TDX and myself missed these things, and what we can do to improve it. If I missed it simply because I was in the UK when the evidence was there, then yeah, that's the reason. Maybe I still had access to a computer, but I still missed it. If it shows up that there was evidence of cheating, then there was evidence of cheating, and we missed it, and the blame is on us. But, if there isn't evidence after I rework these numbers, then my points still stand.

I don't think we can solely blame Terradoxia for incompetence, after all it is the incompetence of the game admin which lead to this cheating and the amount of time it lasted. 

I made my points in the other thread but at the end of the day it's not the job of Terradoxia to go digging around in really just the past month to see if their top nation was somehow cheating. 

It reminds of last year back in May when a member of a major alliance was also caught cheating and banned much like Last187, there is not really much difference and most of the community was clueless that the nation was cheating and funding his alliance also. 

 

I know most of the people around here are probably relativity new to cheating like this but that generally is how it works, no one really knows until someone exposes it.

Personally if it was me I would have known he was cheating with the figures because I like to investigate things. 

It's unrealistic to expect people with real lives to waste time to see if a person is cheating in a game meant for enjoyment. 

seabasstio, you clearly enjoy throwing figures and numbers everywhere you go but basically next to no one shares that passion with you and don't run numbers and figures themselves since they probably have better things to do with their lives. 

I agree with you on most of those points. You can't expect any alliance to micromanage every single nation on a point. On an economic level, I feel like Terradoxia should be considered innocent, due to the subtraction and the fact that the total subtractions from the alliance bank and individual nations does reach about $125 million. I would however, say some of the TDX leadership should have at least suspected cheating with some of the things Last187 was saying. 

 

It's the victims fault eh?  You'd be great on a jury at a rape trial.

 

Nothing to do with a cheating scumbag committing criminal activity by bruteforce hacking.

 

Of course security can be tightened and no doubt has been but saying it is the victims fault is just plain wrong.

I'm sorry, but that was the worst analogy I've ever heard. How can someone who is "a cheating scumbag committing criminal activity by bruteforce hacking" be a victim. Makes no sense. Clarify who your victim is then I will give you a legitimate response.

 

EDIT: This is the last you will be hearing about the matter from Terradoxia. If I haven't changed your mind already and you haven't given a legitimate response, then you're just as ignorant as a Colts fan. 

Edited by Will Golay

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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TDX you fked up it happens, people will hound you for it and some may never forget at this point its time to look forward and make your future better than your past.

Edited by Zygon
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I'm sorry, but that was the worst analogy I've ever heard. How can someone who is "a cheating scumbag committing criminal activity by bruteforce hacking" be a victim. Makes no sense. 

 

He's not :wacko:

 

Sheepy is the victim along with honest players to a lesser extent.  I thought I'd made that pretty clear.

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Anyway this whole Sheepy being a victim or not being a victim thing is a pointless side discussion with no relevance to what I was saying. 

At the end of the day Sheepy didn't protect himself and the players playing his game adequately from hacks which can only be blamed on one person and it's not Last187, not when Sheepy is responsible for the protection of data. 

Comparing it to rape is misguided. 

Edited by Clarke
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I guarantee you calculate in all his trades between that growth period that it will be negative because there is no way he was making 5m in resources (per day) with like what 11-12 cities? 

 

I'm not defending him or anything like that but its possible to make a similar amount to that whilst there is a war going on

Edited by Isolatar
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I'm not defending him or anything like that but its possible to make a similar amount to that whilst there is a war going on

Yes it is very possible, he was making that much during the VE War.

 

ALSO: THE DOCUMENT HAS BEEN UPDATED TO INCLUDE THE PROPER TAX INCOME RATES. THIS SHOULD DISPROVE ANY OF THE POINTS MADE HERE IN THE REPLIES.

 

I also deleted the other nations since the community has primarily been focusing on Last187 and no one was discussing the other nations. Since Sheepy didn't list them we also can't be entirely sure they were banned for the same reason. PLEASE READ THE UPDATED DOCUMENT BEFORE MAKING MORE COMMENTS. 

Will Golay

 

Brotherhood of the Clouds Deputy Minister of Economics

 

<Kyubey>: bush did 7 11
<Kyubey>: slurpees can't melt steel beams

 

 

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