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A Note on Guardian and The Seven Kingdoms


Impero
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At the time we were also very close to agreeing peace with Rose/TEst. So it was calculated, and not something that was going to cause us issues.

That isn't accurate, we had already stood down against TEst well before the post. It was also more of a public callout in order to push ROSE out of the war.

 

Also Malone, I was only MoFA for three months. Would you care to point out what I said that was a problem?

 

Oh wait, let me guess, it was when I said we should be hitting TAC's allies during the war, no? Well guess !@#$ing what, we should've as by your (or pre's, it was a while back after all) by the time I said that on the OWF you'd already begun planing to roll us. I knew once the TAC war started that going easy on them and not hitting their allies would be meaningless as they would retaliate eventually and guess !@#$ing what? I was right.

Edited by underlordgc

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TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
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I'm retarded, you win

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That isn't accurate, we had already stood down against TEst well before the post. It was also more of a public callout in order to push ROSE out of the war.

 

Also Malone, I was only MoFA for three months. Would you care to point out what I said that was a problem?

 

Oh wait, let me guess, it was when I said we should be hitting TAC's allies during the war, no? Well guess !@#$ing what, we should've as by your (or pre's, it was a while back after all) by the time I said that on the OWF you'd already begun planing to roll us. I knew once the TAC war started that going easy on them and not hitting their allies would be meaningless as they would retaliate eventually and guess !@#$ing what? I was right.

Don't be belligerent. You know full well that while you were MoFA you said and did shit that wasn't representative of your position. And it was taken as just being Underlordgc. Because it wasn't official communication from the MoFA in any sort of way. The point I made, and why I used you as an example, is that Saru was stating that because Tenages said it (even though Tenages had no direct government control) that it should have been taken for gold.

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He's right, I'm such a stinker. Play my exceptional game!

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Please pardon the interruption, however I wanted to make a small point about the OP.

 

When presented with these terms, The Seven Kingdoms flat out denied them. According to SK, they did not feel they should pay reparations as they insist its "bad for the game". SK, you are not the sole arbiter of what is or what is not good for Politics and War. To think you are is nothing short of arrogant.

VE claims SK thinks it is the sole arbiter of what is and what is not good for PnW.

 

Guardian and The Seven Kingdoms, in their continued arrogance, feel they are above personal responsibility. They feel they deserve to just say "sorry bro!" and be able to move on. What makes them so deserving? If any of you decided to attack an alliance out of the blue, reparations would be sought for the bad act. What makes Guardian and the Seven Kingdoms above this time honored principle? Why do they think they deserve to follow a different set of rules then the rest of the players in this game?

 

Is it because they spent so long with a strangle hold on the top tier that they honestly feel a different set of rules apply to them? It might be, but it matters not. They will follow the same code as the rest of Orbis's citizens, and they will take responsibility for their actions, one way or another.

 

The time where they operate above the rules is over, whether they understand that yet or not.

VE then goes on to claim what is and what is not good for PnW and describes the code which apparently all of us follow.

I didn't realize reps were the norm in PnW... I don't seem to recall any after the last few wars, or any wars for that matter, but perhaps my memory is failing me (as it does from time to time).

 

You may now go back to your regularly scheduled mud-slinging :) cheers!

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What happened as I see it/afaik:

 

For a good amount of time, Guardian has had somewhat of a balance of powers approach to the game. We were opposed to the idea of a "hegemoney" and even if such a large power was not necessarily making specific threats against other alliances. I suspect this is at least part the reason why Prefontaine decided not to have us ally with VE as they were getting increasingly powerful, even though we were on relatively friendly terms.

 

Also around this time, Grillick's (GPA leader) actions did not reflect those of a neutral alliance, and GPA's members were increasingly dominating the game's upper tier. So Guardian and SK start a war against GPA to avoid having them become too powerful. Speaking personally, I was also hoping that this would encourage other alliances to make moves since they would no longer have to worry about falling far far behind GPA if these other alliances went to war against each other.

 

The Marionette war and GPA war were both more costly to Guardian than some seem to realize. Although it's true that it gave us the upper hand, I suspect that with the Marionette war, in terms of how many weeks of growth the war effort cost Guardian vs their opponent, the difference was not that huge. For example, while DEIC lost more infra than Guardian, a big part of the reason that DEIC had more higher infra nations was that they didn't put as much into war chests. I wouldn't be surprised if the value of Guardian's war chest before the Marionette war was greater than the value of the infra we destroyed. And Guardian did lose some infra too, mostly from missiles which DEIC had a bit more of.

 

The war still allowed Guardian's top tier to overtake DEIC's, but then we got into the war with GPA. Guardian actually lost a fair bit more infra against GPA, since a good chunk of GPA's nations (at least those Guardian was fighting) had missiles vs just 3-4 nations in DEIC. Plus there was the cost to make sure we'd control the air, gas, ammo, etc. I think the war with GPA allowed DEIC's nations to regain what they fell behind by in the Marionette War, or just about. UPN's upper tier by the way was always a bit behind Guardian's by the way, definitely after the war with TAC but I think before too to a lesser extent.

 

Anyways, VE began to be concerned that we would attack them around this point. They militarized significantly in response to our militarization to hit GPA thinking we might be hitting them. And with GPA out of the way and the CB used to hit them, and solid growth from VE putting them into the number one spot, it was understandable they would feel that way. However, at least at first, we weren't planning on making a move on VE. If we kept trying to knock down the top dog, with one war after another, we'd eventually get worn down, and the list of former opponents looking for revenge would get too big to deal with and we'd get stomped. We weren't that arrogant believe it or not... and we certainly did not think we could knock VE off the first page. Once the war with GPA was over, we were willing to let someone else get into the driver's seat.

 

One of the things Shellhound found out while spying was that VE was preparing for war with us soon after we hit GPA. No-one else in Guardian knew he found out about this through spying and it's not like spying is the only way to get this sort of intel. Also the intel Shellhound gained did not make it clear if VE was just preparing for a war that they expected we would start or if they would start it themselves. However, it did add fuel to a "cold war" of sorts. It meant that VE was going to try to counter our power, and it made it seem unlikely that the next major was would be between anyone else than VE and Guardian/SK's spheres. You basically had a 1913/1914 type situation where it's safe to say that the Triple Alliance wasn't going to start a war with the USA, the only war the Triple Alliance was going to commit significant resources to was one with the Triple Entente. VE signed a bunch of treaties, and Guardian responded by dropping our paperless stance and signing treaties of our own. I think the thinking was if war was going to happen, might as well get ahead of it and use the advantage of surprise. Whether or not that was the right call is debatable, but it is what it is.

 

At the same time, SK makes their plans to have Rose take much of the damage in the war with VE/allies and then backstab them. I'm pretty sure even Shellhound only found out about this after Rose got the leaked plans from SK's forums. That eventually got its way to VE and we found out that VE/allies and Rose/allies were planning on doing a pre-emptive strike against us. Even with DEIC on our side and UPN/BoC/Terradoxia neutral we would be at a numerical disadvantage and our best and only chance would have been to pre-empt their pre-emptive strike of our pre-emptive strike... So basically it was a long build up of tensions on both sides, and it just so happened that Guardian/SK/Mensa pulled the trigger first.

 

People mentioned that the reps being asked are just token reps or insignificant. Maybe they are not that big compared to the damage dealt, or to reps in planet Bob. Fortunately this is not Bob, and honestly I'm glad because I don't think it's a good for the game to take several months if not more to recover from losing a war. Shorter time frames makes for a more dynamic game. Also if you're going to compare it to the damage dealt, there is simply no chance that we would have accepted those (which I'm glad VE gov understands). Just because we caused billions in damages (I'm sure we took over 1 billion in damages too) doesn't mean we spent billions on the war or are able to pay billions in reps. The reps being asked would probably take about 6-7 days to repay for Guardian and maybe 8-9 days for SK if we dedicated 100% of our income to that for those days. It's not permanently crippling but no insignificant either. It's not much less than the total value of Guardian's military + all our infra. The difference in how many days of delayed/lost growth the Marionette war cost us vs TC is probably in the same ball park too.

 

Also a few people mentioned that if you attack someone and lose reps are to be expected and expecting anything else is arrogant and used rogues as an analogy. Well I'm not sure about other alliances, but when a rogue attacks Guardian, there's basically two options, either pay reps, or get destroyed. What getting destroyed means exactly will vary, it's not necessarily zero infra, but definitely heavy damage. However, we don't destroy rogues and then expect them to pay reps (not even token reps), so bad analogy... 

 

While I respect your post and your composure, Memph, I must respectfully disagree. The notion that Guardian government was ambivalent or friendly towards VE initially (around GPA) has already been debunked by Impero and SRD's logs of Prefontaine. Whether your overall members were aware of it or note: Your governments - two governments in a row - made it explicitly clear on multiple occasions via the creation of rumors, interactions such as the the ones shown in the logs, and overall plots, that Guardian was coming for our sphere. We were well aware of this and decided to prepare, but not bite. When VE was explicitly threatened by Guardian government in the leadup to the GPA war, we did take precautionary measures (see: Militarization) as a contingency planning. This was wholly caused by your own government.

 

The lead-up to this war has one central theme: Your coalition working to isolate VE (by attempting to use VE's "arrogance" to rally people against her), while searching for an opening to remove the contest it gave to your upper tier dominance. Our sphere's actions have been reactionary in nature. When screenshots leaked of a coalition having been formed against our sphere, in combination with a slow Guardian-SK military buildup (One that was already being initiated at that point), we had no option but to follow suit and prepare for war. Your "pre-emptive strike" was the fulfillment of a self-fulfilling prophecy initiated by your own leaders.

 

It is wholly possible that many of your members have been lied to. That misinformation has spread amongst your ranks by those whom you trusted to lead you. If this is the case, all I can do is offer you my condolences, and offer a hand of friendship when all this is over. If this is the case however, it is not wise to attempt to pin this on the grouping which was forcefully dragged into defending itself against the ambition of those who betrayed your trust internally.

 

Our ally in VE was wrongfully attacked. It appears to me that they are wary of believing your new administration's apology, and the promise that this will not happen again. Can you truly blame them, that they want to see more before putting this to rest? Given that previous governments of Guardian have failed to build their trust, and given the manner in which we have ended up in this situation, I personally can not fault them for it.

 

If the truth is indeed, that you have been misinformed on the political situation surrounding this war, I will urge you to reconsider your position. Bite the pill. It will put the issue and any grudge to rest for our allies. And I assure you that at least The Syndicate will remember the gesture in future dealings.

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Please pardon the interruption, however I wanted to make a small point about the OP.

 

 

VE claims SK thinks it is the sole arbiter of what is and what is not good for PnW.

 

 

VE then goes on to claim what is and what is not good for PnW and describes the code which apparently all of us follow.

I didn't realize reps were the norm in PnW... I don't seem to recall any after the last few wars, or any wars for that matter, but perhaps my memory is failing me (as it does from time to time).

 

You may now go back to your regularly scheduled mud-slinging :) cheers!

 

 

Interesting perspective that wasn't brought up at all this thread.  Nicely done.

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Please pardon the interruption, however I wanted to make a small point about the OP.

 

 

VE claims SK thinks it is the sole arbiter of what is and what is not good for PnW.

 

 

VE then goes on to claim what is and what is not good for PnW and describes the code which apparently all of us follow.

I didn't realize reps were the norm in PnW... I don't seem to recall any after the last few wars, or any wars for that matter, but perhaps my memory is failing me (as it does from time to time).

 

You may now go back to your regularly scheduled mud-slinging :) cheers!

What you conveniently gloss over is that this is the first war in the history of Orbis, that a party declared an aggressive war against an alliance, and then promptly lost.  No precedence has ever been set for this type of war, and guess what, you start a war against VE and you lose, you better believe you will make restitution for it. 

 

It's sad that you use this "whats best for the game" to really hide the fact that SK isn't man enough to admit when they screwed up and make it right.

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Don't be belligerent. You know full well that while you were MoFA you said and did !@#$ that wasn't representative of your position. And it was taken as just being Underlordgc. Because it wasn't official communication from the MoFA in any sort of way. The point I made, and why I used you as an example, is that Saru was stating that because Tenages said it (even though Tenages had no direct government control) that it should have been taken for gold.

Like?

 

Also, isn't Tenny SK's leader? Afaik that is as controling as you can get.

Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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Double post

Edited by underlordgc

Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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Oh great so it's Mensa's fault.</sarcasm>

 

sorry if it came out that way but I was in no shape or form insinutating that. I was merely stating how reps are going to be a poor standard that is trying to be enforced in this world that has proved the destruction of others like ours in the past.

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What you conveniently gloss over is that this is the first war in the history of Orbis, that a party declared an aggressive war against an alliance, and then promptly lost.  No precedence has ever been set for this type of war, and guess what, you start a war against VE and you lose, you better believe you will make restitution for it. 

 

It's sad that you use this "whats best for the game" to really hide the fact that SK isn't man enough to admit when they screwed up and make it right.

 

Promptly is an overstatement.  I would make the argument that Guardian, SK and my alliance were WINNING the first round.  The reason why we lost was because we faced overwhelming numbers.  I won't go into the postmortem as to how those overwhelming numbers came about because that's not at issue.  What I am taking exception to is your claim that we were rebuffed by VE.  We weren't.

 

And what does "being a man" have to do with it anyway?  Ever considered that some of us might be women?

 

 

 

sorry if it came out that way but I was in no shape or form insinutating that. I was merely stating how reps are going to be a poor standard that is trying to be enforced in this world that has proved the destruction of others like ours in the past.

 

Jon, I was joking... I thought the sarcasm tag would be sufficient.  For the record, I'm not in Mensa HQ leadership, I just run our forums.  I'm not a big fan of reps but I won't fight them.  What I might fight is the concept that peace terms are not negotiable.

Edited by PigInZen

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Only reason I came back here was because of logs involving me, so yay!

 

What Imperio failed to mention in his logs that were just a tiny snippit, is I had no intention of going to war with them and was simply testing the waters to see how far they'd to to defend brand new members who were fleeing an alliance. Told him that flat out at the end, had a laugh and we both moved on with our lives. The threats were a grandstand to see where they stand. Did I ever declare war on them? Nope. Did I work with Imperio to prevent a war? Yep. But by all means, lets use selective logs.

 

<Prefontaine> Keep telling yourself that mate.

<Impero[VE]> listen, i like you and think youre a good guy

<Impero[VE]> and i do love the sound of my own voice, its like honey

<Impero[VE]> im fairly certain he was TEL

<Impero[VE]> and certain people are idiots

 

 

[15:39] <Prefontaine> Simply seeing how far you'd go.

[15:39] <Prefontaine> That's all.
[15:40] <Prefontaine> That's why I talked to SRD first.
[15:40] <Prefontaine> Figured I'd check the hot-head :P
[15:40] <Prefontaine> He likes a fight.
[15:41] <Impero[VE]> so youre not coming after thatguy?
[15:41] <Prefontaine> I'd like to as we're very limited on targets.
[15:41] <Prefontaine> But it's 1 guy.
[15:41] <Prefontaine> The !@#$ do I care?
[15:41] <Impero[VE]> lol man ill tell you this
[15:42] <Impero[VE]> you are a different kind of person, thats for sure
[15:42] <Prefontaine> Haha.
[15:42] <Prefontaine> Could you expand on that for me? 
[15:43] <Impero[VE]> most people dont push things to the brink of war to test how far someone will go
[15:43] <Impero[VE]> its a big risk
[15:46] <Prefontaine> Eh.
[15:46] <Prefontaine> You said it yourself.
[15:46] <Prefontaine> You didn't want it.
[15:46] <Prefontaine> Neither did I.
[15:46] <Prefontaine> Not that big of a risk.
[15:47] <Prefontaine> Combined with us being on good terms.
[15:47] <Impero[VE]> true in that regard
[15:47] <Impero[VE]> and ill tell you what
[15:47] <Prefontaine> And I figured you'd be more relieved than annoyed :P
[15:47] <Impero[VE]> any future applicants i get from GPA between now and then i will give a strong look to and likely deny
[15:48] <Impero[VE]> unless there is a compelling reason for me not to like they are a viridian in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways) but i think we have all those anyway now so it shoudlent be a concern
[15:48] <Prefontaine> I would be very annoyed if they have a mass exodus.
[15:48] <Impero[VE]> at this point it would be blatant since its on the owf
[15:48] <Impero[VE]> and i dont want any of those guys
[15:49] <Impero[VE]> the only reason i took tarik is because i did know him rather well
[15:49] <Prefontaine> I still think he's a !@#$ member to have.
[15:49] <Prefontaine> Leaving like that.
[15:49] <Prefontaine> But as long as he's not in Guardian I don't care where he goes.
[15:50] <Impero[VE]> could be right, we'll see
Edited by Judge Dredd
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Only reason I came back here was because of logs involving me, so yay!

 

What Imperio failed to mention in his logs that were just a tiny snippit, is I had no intention of going to war with them and was simply testing the waters to see how far they'd to to defend brand new members who were fleeing an alliance. Told him that flat out at the end, had a laugh and we both moved on with our lives. The threats were a grandstand to see where they stand. Did I ever declare war on them? Nope. Did I work with Imperio to prevent a war? Yep. But by all means, lets use selective logs.

 

<Prefontaine> Keep telling yourself that mate.

<Impero[VE]> listen, i like you and think youre a good guy

<Impero[VE]> and i do love the sound of my own voice, its like honey

<Impero[VE]> im fairly certain he was TEL

<Impero[VE]> and certain people are idiots

 

ah the joys of log dumping, someone else always has a copy

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I'm not sure if you are purposely ignoring what I said. Had Rose not stood up for us, SK would of got their terms pushed through -- because Guardian, whilst didn't actively pushed for it themselves, told me that they would support their allies in their decisions. And their terms that they were talking about before getting shut down were to extend the war AND to decom all of our missile projects.

 

And again, I don't agree with your metrics, and think that given the stage of the game, the war was a lot tougher on us than it has been so far on you. Although I predict that if you stay stubborn and foolish, that yes you will soon reach a stage where Guardian will be hurt even more than UPN was in our last war. The difference being this was entirely through your own fault. Both because you started the war, and refused to accept fair reps at a reasonable time.

 

Not entirely true. As one of the few people involved with those peace talks at the upper most levels, I told SK I was against the idea of project decoms, and I was ultimately against pushing for military decoms of missiles/spies/navy because most of it was destroyed anyway so it was basically a moot point to push for. While of course I would tell you we were a united front and stood together. Because that's what allies do, not going to act like there's internal drama else someone might go and post some alliance politics post about how UPN will only accept seperate alliance surrender terms instead of coalition surrender terms, or whatever that nonsense you posted was. 

 

As for memphs Metrics, they've always been fairly spot on and he's probably the most level headed rational person I know in these games, so I don't think he's trying to lie about stuff. Take that for what you will.

 

 

The notion that Guardian government was ambivalent or friendly towards VE initially (around GPA) has already been debunked by Impero and SRD's logs of Prefontaine. 

 

Edited by Judge Dredd

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Only reason I came back here was because of logs involving me, so yay!

 

What Imperio failed to mention in his logs that were just a tiny snippit, is I had no intention of going to war with them and was simply testing the waters to see how far they'd to to defend brand new members who were fleeing an alliance. Told him that flat out at the end, had a laugh and we both moved on with our lives. The threats were a grandstand to see where they stand. Did I ever declare war on them? Nope. Did I work with Imperio to prevent a war? Yep. But by all means, lets use selective logs.

 

<Prefontaine> Keep telling yourself that mate.

<Impero[VE]> listen, i like you and think youre a good guy

<Impero[VE]> and i do love the sound of my own voice, its like honey

<Impero[VE]> im fairly certain he was TEL

<Impero[VE]> and certain people are idiots

 

Yea man as I said earlier in this thread, none of this was a secret. If you look at my first post I specifically said as much and only provided logs because they were requested. It wasn't like some big reveal, we were just reminding people why we militarized. I'm fairly certain you both mentioned it all in your DoW and on the radio.

 

Sure, you can also just look in Pre's DoW on GPA, he publically talks about it there, it wasn't a secret or anything.

Edited by Impero

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Yea man as I said earlier in this thread, none of this was a secret. If you look at my first post I specifically said as much and only provided logs because they were requested. It wasn't like some big reveal, we were just reminding people why we militarized. I'm fairly certain you both mentioned it all in your DoW and on the radio.

 

 

I know, but people didn't seem to understand that we were actually working together quite well alliance to alliance and leader to leader basically the entire time you've been here. There were two stressful times with the House spying stuff and the GPA fleeing, but there was never any real military action on the table. VE and Guardian were on pretty decent terms while I was in charge. As memph brought up with the size issues and hegemoney stuff.. there was a chance we would have been allies along the way. 

Edited by Judge Dredd

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As for memphs Metrics, they've always been fairly spot on and he's probably the most level headed rational person I know in these games, so I don't think he's trying to lie about stuff. Take that for what you will.

 

I didn't call him a liar, just said that I disagreed and believed he was wrong.

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I know, but people didn't seem to understand that we were actually working together quite well alliance to alliance and leader to leader basically the entire time you've been here. There were two stressful times with the House spying stuff and the GPA fleeing, but there was never any real military action on the table. VE and Guardian were on pretty decent terms while I was in charge. As memph brought up with the size issues and hegemoney stuff.. there was a chance we would have been allies along the way.

Generally, yes. But we absolutely had to militarize during the GPA thing given our conversations (which I think I told you we would be doing during that conversation word for word almost), and that doesn't mean we were going to attack you as Shellhound/others seemed to think.

Edited by Impero

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Generally, yes. But we absolutely had to militarize during the GPA thing given our conversations (which I think I told you we would be doing during that conversation word for word almost), and that doesn't mean we were going to attack you as Shellhound/others seemed to think.

 

And we spoke several times during that period about it, and I relayed most of that to most of the alliance. We gave each other our word that Guardian wasn't going to attack VE and VE wasn't going to strike Guardian during or near that GPA conflict.

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While I respect your post and your composure, Memph, I must respectfully disagree. The notion that Guardian government was ambivalent or friendly towards VE initially (around GPA) has already been debunked by Impero and SRD's logs of Prefontaine. Whether your overall members were aware of it or note: Your governments - two governments in a row - made it explicitly clear on multiple occasions via the creation of rumors, interactions such as the the ones shown in the logs, and overall plots, that Guardian was coming for our sphere. We were well aware of this and decided to prepare, but not bite. When VE was explicitly threatened by Guardian government in the leadup to the GPA war, we did take precautionary measures (see: Militarization) as a contingency planning. This was wholly caused by your own government.

 

The lead-up to this war has one central theme: Your coalition working to isolate VE (by attempting to use VE's "arrogance" to rally people against her), while searching for an opening to remove the contest it gave to your upper tier dominance. Our sphere's actions have been reactionary in nature. When screenshots leaked of a coalition having been formed against our sphere, in combination with a slow Guardian-SK military buildup (One that was already being initiated at that point), we had no option but to follow suit and prepare for war. Your "pre-emptive strike" was the fulfillment of a self-fulfilling prophecy initiated by your own leaders.

 

It is wholly possible that many of your members have been lied to. That misinformation has spread amongst your ranks by those whom you trusted to lead you. If this is the case, all I can do is offer you my condolences, and offer a hand of friendship when all this is over. If this is the case however, it is not wise to attempt to pin this on the grouping which was forcefully dragged into defending itself against the ambition of those who betrayed your trust internally.

 

Our ally in VE was wrongfully attacked. It appears to me that they are wary of believing your new administration's apology, and the promise that this will not happen again. Can you truly blame them, that they want to see more before putting this to rest? Given that previous governments of Guardian have failed to build their trust, and given the manner in which we have ended up in this situation, I personally can not fault them for it.

 

If the truth is indeed, that you have been misinformed on the political situation surrounding this war, I will urge you to reconsider your position. Bite the pill. It will put the issue and any grudge to rest for our allies. And I assure you that at least The Syndicate will remember the gesture in future dealings.

I would say it was more like lack of information or maybe not remembering the details in some cases. Anyways, I'm not sure when the animosity with VE began, it seems like it was after the GPA war from what Pre and Impero have said, but my point was that relations were friendly initially and were still friendly as VE rose up the rankings. I'm pretty sure VE was #1 before the GPA war, and there would have been a hegemoney or close if Guardian became allied to VE, say sometime during the month prior to the GPA war, since we were friendly with SK, DEIC, and smaller alliances like TEst and a few others (I think ESA and GR were already around then?).

 

The info Shellhound had basically suggested that VE assumed war with us was inevitably going to happen and were preparing for that eventuality in the medium/long term. That's what I meant by preparing for war. That doesn't mean they had specific plans to attack us.

 

Maybe VE was just convinced we were going to attack them. If so, since we did not have any plans to attack VE at that time, you can see how it might have been misinterpreted and fed into the cycle of escalation.

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I dispute a lot of your figures, and don't think your sunk costs were anywhere near as high as you claim. Just because we were defenseless, and unable to damage your units. Therefore you got a lot of your resources back. Whereas we invested in military units that we started building 2 days or so before the war, which got wiped out completely on day 1. Also I know you are only talking about DEIC, because that's who Guardian engaged with the most, but UPN specifically faced even greater odds, and greater damages in monetary terms. Like I said, you have to keep in mind that Rose/SK/Guardian were virtually not damaged at all, and your "damages" were only lost growth. In this war, you guys attacked first and were fairly well stocked up in terms of units, meaning that we had a lot of sunk costs in our own units lost, and war caused a lot more damage to the us than we did to you in the last war. And like I said, to me the biggest point is that it was so early on in the game.

 

But I feel like we are going on in circles now, so let's just leave it at that. I doubt I will get you to come to terms with my perspective, and I just can't see you proving your point.

 

I did admit that it was mostly lost growth for us, just 1 day rebuilding infra in my estimates, 0 days for many, a few days for Placentica and a few others hit by missiles. It's true we would have gotten some resources back, it's difficult to say how much exactly, 0% of ammo/gas, 0% for spy missions, 0% of military unit cash costs, 75% of military unit (the ones we didn't lose) and building resource costs, 50% of building cash costs. Not sure what that would average out to exactly. DEIC and UPN would have gotten cash/resources back from scrapping military buildings too though. Whatever the exact number is though, it's not a game changer as far as my main points are concerned, we're only talking about something like a couple days of income recovered from decommissioning.

 

My main points are:

 

The difference in how much we fell behind the neutrals vs how much TC (or at least DEIC) fell behind the neutrals in the Marionette war is in the same ball park as how long it would take to pay off the proposed reps (both about a week).

 

This war is much more damaging for us than the Marionette war was for TC.

Sidenote: I don't have an as good feel for how much of an impact this war is having on VE and its allies, but I'm sure you're right that's it's more than the impact the Marionette war had on us. I suspect the gap in terms of # of days is most likely greater if you're comparing VE's allies and us in this war to the gap between us and TC in the Marionette war. As for VE itself compared to us, the gap is smaller than with VE's allies, although I would still lean towards it being bigger than between us and TC in the Marionette war.

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